The Islamic state
- Thread starter brogdale
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hang the bankers
He hasn't been in the Middle East for the last decade though, he's mostly been in London, where he's from. That's the question that's been asked: why has he chosen to commit his life to this cause thousands of miles away to which there are surely thousands, if not hundreds of thousands or millions of others who are more directly connected to it, and have lost more personally as a result of the last 14 years of war from Afghanistan onwards. What has motivated young British/French/other European Muslim men to literally go and fight, kill and be killed for ISIS? You are reducing it down to something extremely simplistic. Of course the bomb dropping hasn't been random, either.
Yeah, totally normal innit. Do you remember lots of mass executions being filmed in such a pornographic way before? P.S. As far as I know the only side that has used napalm in this war is the Assad regime, whom absolutely nobody on this thread is defending. So get off your high horse.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Those twats really need to take a look at the Bible.
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
ah the sort of cloying smug one man up man ship that does the debate the world of good. you sound like the biggest hand ringer of them all.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
ISIS offer a narrative. It includes drama, danger, and most importantly meaning.
Western late-capitalist society on the other hand, even to those not seriously affected by young people's shitty employment prospects, racism and Islamophobia, merely offers entertainment.
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
give me "western late-capitalism" any day of the week, ta.
edited - a bit harsh.
but you get my drift. it it's really bad for these people here, please don't let them back into the UK, they will be happier elsewhere, surely>?
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8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Rover Bellhands they used to call him in school.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
It's not about happiness, though - that's seeing it through our lens.
Happiness has been diluted to comfort and diversion in our culture because it sells product. What ISIS are offering isn't comfort, it's a chance to play a part in a struggle, in a grand, epic narrative between absolute good and absolute evil.
It's about making a choice to do something that 'makes sense' at a deep psychological level in a way that nothing can in our society, for a whole heap of complicated reasons.
There are other reasons that people go too, of course.
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
i can't disagree with any of that.
i do not hold my society in contempt because of that lack of meaning, though. meaning can be created where ever you live. i create my own meaning in life, for example.
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
I feel the same way. However, for those who feel that their sense of meaning needs to encompass a cosmic narrative, I think modern secular society fails to serve them in that regard. Which is a shame, because I think such a thing would be both possible and desirable.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Modern secular society tries to offer narratives but they're self-evident bullshit as well as being unsatisfying and small.
I'm not sure what you mean by secular society attempting to convey a cosmic narrative.
<those are two separate statements by the way - I'm not trying to make a logical connection there>
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
Well, look at the sort of thing that's on offer on television, for instance; get rich/get famous/join the Armed Forces/buy more crap. Relatively speaking there's hardly anything about the pursuing the knowledge of nature and what there is tends to be dumbed down. It's mostly capitalist materialism or nationalism or racism and other such petty, divisive shit.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Ok, we can agree about the deficient available narratives but I don't know what 'pursuing the knowledge of nature' means in terms of creating a more satisfying substitute.
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
As I see it, one of the meta-social functions of religion is to provide a cosmic narrative in which humans as a species have a specific role or destiny. I don't think science or philosophy can provide said narrative in of themselves, but I do think they can aid in the construction of one. However, it seems that right now not enough people are interested enough for it to happen. It wouldn't make money and it wouldn't flatter or jive with any religious narratives, so any earnest attempts end up being stillborn.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
With you so far...
Still with you...
Oops, I'm losing you a bit here...
You seem to be talking about it being desirable to construct some kind of grand narrative that either doesn't compete with or has a complementary relation to modern scientific understanding - I'm not sure what such a thing looks like in your mind.
Do you have any examples of any of the 'stillborn earnest attempts' that spring most readily to mind?
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure myself. It's something I'm finding hard to put in words. Basically it seems that not every single person in the world can find their own meaning in life, for various reasons. So they turn to things like religion, cults, conspiracy theories and so forth. However, as we can see in the world today, those are not without considerable shortcomings.
Secular Humanism as an explicit life stance (as opposed mere irreligion) would seem to qualify.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
They have a very structured ideology - it's dependent on certain things being in place to function (such as having an actual caliphate in the first place) - from what I've read they don't seem as flexible as Al-Quaeda which, in true guerrilla fashion, kept on the move and didn't tie itself down in the same way.
I've read about splits in ISIS forming recently but didn't see much detail on the degree to which they are ideological in nature.
Yossarian
⏭️
Some unpleasant stuff there, 'spaz walts'
Never seen "arrse" before? As far as I can tell, it's a bunch of present, former, and wannabe officers in the British Army stroking their dicks and talking about how they'd solve the world's problems, so language like "spaz" isn't that surprising.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
They seem to be conflating fantasists with people who have actual mental health issues in that piece.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
They are well-known internet twats - don't expect them to make sense.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
'Chechen' may be too broad a term, too, with fighters coming from other parts of the North Caucasus, although there has been division there with some changing allegiance to IS leader Baghdadi. The military/police presence there has local involvement as well as Russians.
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