The Islamic state

[brogdale]

That's the stupidest thing they could have done.

I mean, how obvious does it have to get that ISIS are trying to provoke precisely such reactions? Why give them what they so clearly want? Stupid, stupid bastards.

But presumably this strike was just one component of the on-going Combined Joint Task Force - Operation Inherent Resolve (CJTF-OIR)? If you're saying that the air war against ISIS is stupid, that's one thing, but to single out an individual strike as 'stupid'?

 

[phildwyer]

ISIS i suspect contains many mohammed siddique khan types who are motivated by a misplaced 'humanitarianism'

Pish, I strongly doubt that. I don't think the people who made that video have too many humanitarian followers. It's not exactly a humanitarian document. It's rather anti-humanitarian, rather obviously so. In fact it seems to me calculated to alienate humanitarians and make it impossible for them to feel any sympathy for ISIS whatsoever.

 

[phildwyer]

But presumably this strike was just one component of the on-going Combined Joint Task Force - Operation Inherent Resolve (CJTF-OIR)? If you're saying that the air war against ISIS is stupid, that's one thing, but to single out an individual strike as 'stupid'?

I'm saying that the whole air war is both stupid and evil. I think it was particularly stupid and evil to respond to that video by... er... burning a lot of people to death.

 

[phildwyer]

my first thought was "Good" and then my second thought was yours above and how sad this will all end.

I'm ashamed to say that I had the same first thought as you. The impulse to revenge is instinctive and deeply-rooted. That's why it is to be resisted. ISIS are motivated by revenge (imho), and look what it does to their sense of morality and decency. I don't want to be like them.

Having said that, if one could isolate the men responsible for making this video, one could justifiably do what one liked to them. I wouldn't have a problem with that. But that's not possible, because they have embedded themselves within the civilian population. So when the coalition launch air raids against them, they know for a certainty that civilians are going to die, in a very horrible way. We don't react with such visceral emotion, because we don't see them dying. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

[frogwoman]

Pish, I strongly doubt that. I don't think the people who made that video have too many humanitarian followers. It's not exactly a humanitarian document. It's rather anti-humanitarian, rather obviously so. In fact it seems to me calculated to alienate humanitarians and make it impossible for them to feel any sympathy for ISIS whatsoever.

Of course. That's why it's in quote marks, it's more self righteous religious indignation. and MSK killed innocent people on the tube after being pumped up with footage of dead babies in palestine, 'brave' 'mujihadeen' etc. He wasn't really motivated by that shit either

If you want a detailed study of these motivations i strongly suggest reading 'eurojihad: patterns of islamist radicalisation' by angel rabasa

 

[brogdale]

I'm saying that the whole air war is both stupid and evil. I think it was particularly stupid and evil to respond to that video by... er... burning a lot of people to death.

Yes, but the particular Jordanian sortie, that Geri linked to, might well have been a 'normal' part of the 'Coalition' Operation that would have taken place anyway, so probably not right to describe it as the most stupid thing they could do. The Jordanian claims of numbers and personnel killed are obviously more about domestic morale/national cohesion than any strategic basis in reality.

 

[IC3D]

Bombing civilians will make Daesh stronger in their cities because they are focusing on radicalising youth and being young will not see nuance of a complex political situation with pictures of dead babies rammed down their throat but view it as rank hypocrisy, which it is.

 

[phildwyer]

Yes, but the particular Jordanian sortie, that Geri linked to, might well have been a 'normal' part of the 'Coalition' Operation that would have taken place anyway, so probably not right to describe it as the most stupid thing they could do.

Fair enough, I'd assumed it was direct retaliation.

There will be plenty of calls for direct retaliation now though, and they're to be resisted. The advice of Clausewitz, Sun Tzu and similar is to: (a) figure out what your enemy wants/expects/is trying to make you do, and then (b) do something else. I think it's sound advice.

 

[phildwyer]

Bombing civilians will make Daesh stronger in their cities because they are focusing on radicalising youth and being young will not see nuance of a complex political situation with pictures of dead babies rammed down their throat but view it as rank hypocrisy, which it is.

Well precisely. Indeed obviously. As we say over here "like du-uh."

 

[DownwardDog]

Yes, but the particular Jordanian sortie, that Geri linked to, might well have been a 'normal' part of the 'Coalition' Operation that would have taken place anyway, so probably not right to describe it as the most stupid thing they could do. The Jordanian claims of numbers and personnel killed are obviously more about domestic morale/national cohesion than any strategic basis in reality.

It's also about demonstrating that the RJAF still have the stones to go downtown.

 

[brogdale]

Fair enough, I'd assumed it was direct retaliation.

There will be plenty of calls for direct retaliation now though, and they're to be resisted. The advice of Clausewitz, Sun Tzu and similar is to: (a) figure out what your enemy wants/expects/is trying to make you do, and then (b) do something else. I think it's sound advice.

tbf I'm assuming what I said above; you might be right...the mission might have been deliberately programmed by the US to allow the King to take some credit for blowing up a few ISIS.

Talking of strategy...

Rory Stewart, the committee’s chairman, an independent-minded Conservative, said Britain was doing too little. “We must clearly acknowledge the previous failures in Iraq and reform our approach. But that does not mean lurching to doing nothing,” he said.

ie. we fucked up in bombing Iraq...let's learn from that...and...bomb Iraq some more.

 

[BigMoaner]

doing nothing sounds fabulous, for us. please let us do nothing.

 

[phildwyer]

Talking of strategy...

ie. we fucked up in bombing Iraq...let's learn from that...and...bomb Iraq some more.

Innit. Their logic appears to run:

"We must do something. This is something. Therefore we must do it."

Now that's what I call stupid.

 

[phildwyer]

It's also about demonstrating that the RJAF still have the stones to go downtown.

Very well put. That must be a significant question for the pilots, after the ISIS video has put a price on their heads, showing their photos, IDs, names and addresses.

Incidentally, how did ISIS find out those details? Do they have moles in the Jordanian military?

 

[Patteran]

If I'm reading it correctly, the "savagery" to which they refer is the imperialist order.

I think it's the savagery of a failed (muslim majority) state, destabilised by jihadi violence.

Naji's advocacy of causing chaos in weaker states in Africa [aims] to provide a foundation for world domination -- a scenario played out in Somalia, for example. By creating civil war, Naji aims to destabilize regions and then have jihadists enter and provide security for desperate peoples -- in essence, by employing a manufactured heroism strategy.

the region of savagery will be in a situation resembling the situation of Afghanistan before the control of the Taliban, a region submitting to the law of the jungle in its primitive form, whose good people and even the wise among the evildoers yearn for someone to manage this savagery.

Edited to add sources - first quote, blog turned up by google - second quote, direct from the Caliphate Cookbook.

 

[Patteran]

"Wherever books are burned, human beings are destined to be burned too."

Mosul's libraries ransacked & purged.

 

[phildwyer]

I think it's the savagery of a failed (muslim majority) state, destabilised by jihadi violence.

Yes, having read on a bit, they are referring to the immediate post-imperialist situation, when the occupying power has withdrawn and all is chaos.

My God it's a dull read isn't it?

 

[Pickman's model]

"Wherever books are burned, human beings are destined to be burned too."

Mosul's libraries ransacked & purged.

that doesn't necessarily follow. books were burned in britain until quite recently (2d half c20) but don't see that leading to people being burned.

 

[Patteran]

that doesn't necessarily follow. books were burned in britain until quite recently (2d half c20) but don't see that leading to people being burned.

It seemed an appropriate (if flowery) quote, but you're right, poetry rarely stands up to historical scrutiny.

I can't work out what book burning incidents you're referring to - Satanic Verses?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Following 7/7/2005 no more terrorist attacks have been successful in causing mass death in the uk, plainly the war on terror has worked.

What I find astonishing is that no commercial explosives have been used in the UK. A raid on a quarry, or importation (if you can get heroin in, you can get anything in) would provide such explosives. This leads me to believe that the threat here is fragmented and amateur. The IRA had no problems in getting Semtex, never mind blasting gelignite.

 

[Pickman's model]

What I find astonishing is that no commercial explosives have been used in the UK. A raid on a quarry, or importation (if you can get heroin in, you can get anything in) would provide such explosives. This leads me to believe that the threat here is fragmented and amateur. The IRA had no problems in getting Semtex, never mind blasting gelignite.

the ira had quite a lot of problems getting semtex! it doesn't float into ireland on its own, you know.

 

[Pickman's model]

It seemed an appropriate (if flowery) quote, but you're right, poetry rarely stands up to historical scrutiny.

I can't work out what book burning incidents you're referring to - Satanic Verses?

courts ordered books burned too. will dig out reference in a minute.

 

[Pickman's model]

Patteran a court ordered 'well of loneliness' by radclyffe hall burned in 1928. according to an article in the times (indecency on the stage: a change in law needed, by a.p, herbert, 26/8/1970 p. 9) this law not changed until 1959. and there's this little gem from 1930:

 

[Pickman's model]

frogwoman, Patteran this little gem from 2012 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-19354560

 

[Idris2002]

the ira had quite a lot of problems getting semtex! it doesn't float into ireland on its own, you know.

The 'ra had both a coherent organization and a political goal that was achievable in theory (if not in practice, as it turned out). The jihadis have neither, so Sasaferrato looks right to me, the current jihadi threat is fragmented and amateur.

 

[Pickman's model]

The 'ra had both a coherent organization and a political goal that was achievable in theory (if not in practice, as it turned out). The jihadis have neither, so Sasaferrato looks right to me, the current jihadi threat is fragmented and amateur.

i was simply commenting on the ease with which the ira obtained semtex. yes, they were able to get hold of it - most famously from libya. but it was another thing bringing it into ireland as the experience of the eksund showed. i was not commenting on the 'ra's organizational and political coherency.

 

[laptop]

Patteran a court ordered 'well of loneliness' by radclyffe hall burned in 1928. according to an article in the times (indecency on the stage: a change in law needed, by a.p, herbert, 26/8/1970 p. 9) this law not changed until 1959. and there's this little gem from 1930:

View attachment 67289

Clearly there's some kind of critical mass effect.

One wingnut holding up a blazing book on a spit: giggle.

Pyre of books: emigrate.

 

[Idris2002]

i was simply commenting on the ease with which the ira obtained semtex. yes, they were able to get hold of it - most famously from libya. but it was another thing bringing it into ireland as the experience of the eksund showed. i was not commenting on the 'ra's organizational and political coherency.

I know that Harnden book Bandit Country was controversial, but he made the point that South Armagh was full of people who knew their way around light engineering tasks, were handy with tools and the like. That was due to S. Armagh's local economy being based on commercial agriculture and the like. Whereas the idiots who did 7/7 had to rely on flour bombs because they were coming out of a post-industrial environment where opportunities to learn those sorts of skills were limited, to put it mildly.

 

[Patteran]

frogwoman, Patteran this little gem from 2012 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-19354560

Thanks for taking the time to dig them out.

 

[Pickman's model]

I know that Harnden book Bandit Country was controversial, but he made the point that South Armagh was full of people who knew their way around light engineering tasks, were handy with tools and the like. That was due to S. Armagh's local economy being based on commercial agriculture and the like. Whereas the idiots who did 7/7 had to rely on flour bombs because they were coming out of a post-industrial environment where opportunities to learn those sorts of skills were limited, to put it mildly.

tbh that book, together with ciaran de baroid's ballymurphy and ten men dead one of my favourite books about the troubles (and de baroid's 'down north' a cracking read too, if you've not looked at it).

returning to your point though, people in south armagh had many years experience to draw on, whereas the 7/7 lot had fuck all - and so were left making a rather basic bomb. in addition, property damage more than casualties the general rationale behind ira bombs so their needs rather different - a different sort of bomb needed for anti-personnel work as opposed to demolition/damage to buildings.