The Islamic state

[frogwoman]

Idf propaganda encouraging peiople to sign up from overseas does quite strongly resemble that of ISIS btw.

 

[phildwyer]

Im quite capable of getting angry at antisemitism without wanting to join the idf and shoot palestinian kids in the head for chucking stones. To be capable of such an act goes beyond 'radicalisation'

You think? I know plenty of Jews who volunteer for the IDF. They're not loonies. Ask them why and they'll give perfectly rational responses: to protect Israel and to avenge anti-semitism.

I understand that you don't feel such impulses yourself. But do not let that blind you to the fact that many people do. Not just loonies either.

 

[frogwoman]

You think? I know plenty of Jews who volunteer for the IDF. They're not loonies. Ask them why and they'll give perfectly rational responses: to protect Israel and to avenge anti-semitism.

I understand that you don't feel such impulses yourself. But do not let that blind you to the fact that many people do. Not just loonies either.

They're not loonies no. I don't think I have ever put forward mental health issues as an explanation for stuff like this.

 

[Pickman's model]

They're not loonies no. I don't think I have ever put forward mental health issues as an explanation for stuff like this.

putting dwyer into company with the likes of boris johnson

 

[frogwoman]

You think? I know plenty of Jews who volunteer for the IDF. They're not loonies. Ask them why and they'll give perfectly rational responses: to protect Israel and to avenge anti-semitism.

I understand that you don't feel such impulses yourself. But do not let that blind you to the fact that many people do. Not just loonies either.

So this sort of t shirt is to avenge antisemitism and nothing to do with personal savagery?

 

[Corax]

Yeah well, both of you do make some fair points. I suppose I see the psychological perversions to which you refer as the result of war, rather than the cause, and so I believe that the blame for them should be laid at the door of those who started the wars.

Oh blimey - if that's not a chicken/egg question I don't know what is!!!

 

[phildwyer]

They're not loonies no. I don't think I have ever put forward mental health issues as an explanation for stuff like this.

I thought you had? You certainly reject the idea that it might have anything to do with our invading Muslim countries. What is your explanation then?

 

[frogwoman]

No other motives there - not individual/peer group savagery/sadism, not desire for a power trip or self righteous religious superiority, desire to build the promised land or the caliphate or whatever, just simply a desire for revenge against bad people

 

[phildwyer]

So this sort of t shirt is to avenge antisemitism and nothing to do with personal savagery?

War induces personal savagery.

 

[frogwoman]

I thought you had? You certainly reject the idea that it might have anything to do with our invading Muslim countries. What is your explanation then?

I have never ever said that ISIS or IDF actions are to do with mental illness in fact whenever this argument comes up I have always rejected it.

I don't know. I don't think it's nothing to do with the west but I do think that these motivations are not the only or even the most important ones.

 

[phildwyer]

No other motives there - not individual/peer group savagery/sadism, not desire for a power trip or self righteous religious superiority, desire to build the promised land or the caliphate or whatever, just simply a desire for revenge against bad people

Of course not, nothing's that simple, and human motivation is always complicated. Revenge is the primary and original motive. But the very act of taking revenge causes brutalization, and once somebody is fighting a war every other kind of nefarious impulse comes to the fore. Conclusion: do not fight wars unless absolutely necessary.

 

[frogwoman]

War induces personal savagery.

Germaine Lindsey was a convert
Lee Rigby's killers were converts

 

[seventh bullet]

I'll cop to shallow and lazy any time

Sure.

 

[phildwyer]

Germaine Lindsey was a convert
Lee Rigby's killers were converts

Converts are often zealots.

 

[frogwoman]

Converts are often zealots.

Doesn't mean they were radicalised 'by war'

Doesn't explain people converting directly to ISIS salafism without an initial period of normal islamic belief

 

[thriller]

Look. This is how we play this. We do a sort of dirty dozen thing. Gather a clandestine force from the UK, US, Arab world, anywhere. With the intention of going into Syria and Iraq and killing these savages. If they get caught, then they can expect no help. There will be 1000s of volunteers for this type of mission. I KNOW.

 

[teqniq]

 

[frogwoman]

Another group of blood-crazed ideologically motivated foreign adventurers, just what Iraq needs

 

[frogwoman]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ing-the-militant-inferno-who-is-10024324.html

Not sure about this piece by Robert Fisk. He is implying that the Saudis are funding ISIS.

 

[frogwoman]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/04/uae-united-arab-emirates-isis-air-attacks-pilot

Potentially significant: UAE stopped air attacks after pilot was captured

 

[Pickman's model]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ing-the-militant-inferno-who-is-10024324.html

Not sure about this piece by Robert Fisk. He is implying that the Saudis are funding ISIS.

never! never! they have no history of involvement with funding terrorism

 

[brogdale]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ing-the-militant-inferno-who-is-10024324.html

Not sure about this piece by Robert Fisk. He is implying that the Saudis are funding ISIS.

Are you buying the self-sufficient model, then?

 

[Pickman's model]

Look. This is how we play this. We do a sort of dirty dozen thing. Gather a clandestine force from the UK, US, Arab world, anywhere. With the intention of going into Syria and Iraq and killing these savages. If they get caught, then they can expect no help. There will be 1000s of volunteers for this type of mission. I KNOW.

i look forward to your after-action report

 

[frogwoman]

Are you buying the self-sufficient model, then?

No I'm not.

There's plenty of support inside Saudi for Isis mind you. But aren't at least some parts of the Saudi state concerned about the threat Isis might pose to their position?

 

[Pickman's model]

Converts are often zealots.

yeh, as anyone who has met a former smoker can attest.

 

[frogwoman]

never! never! they have no history of involvement with funding terrorism

Yeah, I reckon it's plausible but I'd like to see something a bit more detailed.

The Saudi regime have funded a shit load of terrorism.

 

[phildwyer]

Look. This is how we play this. We do a sort of dirty dozen thing. Gather a clandestine force from the UK, US, Arab world, anywhere. With the intention of going into Syria and Iraq and killing these savages. If they get caught, then they can expect no help. There will be 1000s of volunteers for this type of mission. I KNOW.

No there wouldn't. Anyone crazy enough to volunteer for such a mission would be too crazy to fulfill it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah, I reckon it's plausible but I'd like to see something a bit more detailed.

The Saudi regime have funded a shit load of terrorism.

 

[phildwyer]

Yeah, I reckon it's plausible but I'd like to see something a bit more detailed.

The Saudi regime have funded a shit load of terrorism.

The Saudi regime is not monolithic.

Some Saudis hate ISIS worse than we do. Some Saudis love them. And I bet many Saudis do both at the same time.

 

[phildwyer]

yeh, as anyone who has met a former smoker can attest.

Former drinkers are worse.