The Four Horseman hold forth! Dawkins, Hitchen et al.

[Jonti]

Religion in the USA is part of the Capitalist Cult. They go religion shopping like they go shoipping for shoes coming from the mentality of : "what fits best to my feet" and "where do I get the best price for the same product" and "what is the bonus benefit in it for me". No direct profit, no sale.



Ask Bush the recovered " because I found Jesus" alcoholic?

salaam.

He is a cult leader of sorts, I grant you that. But a fairly untypical one, coming as he does from one of the USA's ruling class families. You might even say he's gone into the family business, and added a strong flavour of cultism to it. With the most disastrous and unhappy consequences for many folks.

 

[Jonti]

Yes I did.
Q: Why so many non religious get caught up in such cults?
A: because they get caught while being vulnerable, just like all the rest.

salaam.

No you didn't. I did not ask or assert that.

I asserted that a belief in god or gods tended to smooth the way to recruit people into cults; and an atheist or rationalist person was not such a good prospect for recruitment.

 

[gurrier]

No you don't.
People are recruited to "sinister" abuse of religions (or no matter which cult, among which arrogance covered up as patriotism is a major one) because you want foot soldiers to fight for your (mostly political) goals.

salaam.

That's a pretty amazing "no you don't" there - followed as it is by a clause which patently fails to contradict what I said and is about something altoghether and totally different.

Now I realise that as a 'believer' you have a limited range of tools at your disposal in this debate - appeals to your own authority and meaningless semi-poetic mystifications being the primary ones - but total non-sequiturs such as this are really beyond the pale.

 

[Aldebaran]

I asserted that a belief in god or gods tended to smooth the way to recruit people into cults; and an atheist or rationalist person was not such a good prospect for recruitment.

Yes, and I stated that I disagree.
There are as many atheists caught into that as there are people who already have a religious background. I would even think that those who are religious tend to hold on to what they believe and only go shopping for something else when that doesn't provide anymore for the immediate satisfaction of want, incited and entertained by the Capitalist Cult.
(I'm speaking of the USA specifically)

salaam.

 

[Jonti]

Without wanting to be reductionist...it's all chemistry and electrics at the end of the day...you sense something, your brain and body reacts to it chemically and electrically.

You think?

You may enjoy "Bright Air, Brilliant Fire" by Gerald Edelman, the a Nobel-prize winning biologist. Well worth a whirl, if a little hard going.

 

[Dillinger4]

You think?

You may enjoy "Bright Air, Brilliant Fire" by Gerald Edelman, the a Nobel-prize winning biologist. Well worth a whirl, if a little hard going.

That sounds brilliant. (I just read a review or two).

*puts it on shopping list*

 

[Jonti]

...
There are as many atheists caught into that as there are people who already have a religious background.

This has not been my experience in years of reading and posting on bulletin boards for cult survivors.

I'm not aware of any academic studies on the question, so unless you are, and can provide an url, we're just going to have to say we've gained quite different imprssions on this particular question.

There may well be a cultural explanation. In strongly religious societies it may well be that atheists are indeed vulnerable and exploitable in a way that they are not in the relatively secular UK and the "free market" USA.

 

[Jonti]

That sounds brilliant. (I just read a review or two).

*puts it on shopping list*

I'm a little disappointed that he does not directly address the hard problem of consciousness. But it was published back in 1992 and things are currently moving very fast in the philosophy of mind.

I think gurrier may enjoy it too, if he has not already read it.

 

[Dillinger4]

I'm a little disappointed that he does not directly address the hard problem of consciousness. But it was published back in 1992 and things are currently moving very fast in the philosophy of mind.

I think gurrier may enjoy it too, if he has not already read it.

Indeed they are. I am pretty into my philosophy of mind stuff! I recently finished 'I am a strange loop' by Douglas Hofstader.

 

[Aldebaran]

There may well be a cultural explanation. In strongly religious societies it may well be that atheists are indeed vulnerable and exploitable in a way that they are not in the relatively secular UK and the "free market" USA.

I think it is the other way round. If I only look at the Nation of Islam recruitments tactics... The same can count for many Chrsitan proslytising activities (not in the least the Alcholic Anonymous, was it not you who said they are Christian).
They prey on the desorientated and the vulnerable. Junkies, alcoholics,people who lost every meaning in their lives, broken families etc...

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

That's a pretty amazing "no you don't" there - followed as it is by a clause which patently fails to contradict what I said and is about something altoghether and totally different.

No it isn't. It is to the point while your remark fails to have one.

Now I realise that as a 'believer' you have a limited range of tools at your disposal in this debate - appeals to your own authority and meaningless semi-poetic mystifications being the primary ones - but total non-sequiturs such as this are really beyond the pale.

You are about to realize that I do not spend time in replying to posters who can not entertain a civilized debate.

salaam.

 

[butchersapron]

Fuck off then weirdo

 

[Jonti]

I think it is the other way round. If I only look at the Nation of Islam recruitments tactics... The same can count for many Chrsitan proslytising activities (not in the least the Alcholic Anonymous, was it not you who said they are Christian).
They prey on the desorientated and the vulnerable. Junkies, alcoholics,people who lost every meaning in their lives, broken families etc...

salaam.

I din't know much about the Nation Of Islam's recruitment tactics, but I'm interested to learn more, if you've any pointers. Their beliefs certainly seem pretty way out and extreme to the point of anti-human. I would not be at all surprised to discover that the usual gamut of mind-control tactics is deployed against its victims/members.

There's no rquestion to my mind that AA is a kind of religious movement which came out of a Xtian culture. Many meetings even finish with the Lord's Prayer (Protestant version, I believe). And it's a common criticism that it can be a bit cult-like. But there's nothing secretive about it -- anyone thinking of getting involved with AA can find out exactly what they are getting into.

While that's not an essential feature of a cult (the "religious" support groups around our home-grown would-be šuhadā presumably know exactly what they're getting into) it is often found in cults. Scientology comes to mind as an example. They go to great lengths to keep their ludicrous doctrines secret until the recruit is "ready" for the knowledge.

 

[Jonti]

Indeed they are. I am pretty into my philosophy of mind stuff! I recently finished 'I am a strange loop' by Douglas Hofstader.

You may find Roger Penrose's "The Emporer's New MInd" a useful antidote to Hofstadter's view of "the mind as a computer". Penrose rejects that view, pointing to Godel's Proof and many other results. I agree with his criticisms, though not with the (determinate) model of consciousness he puts forward. Edelman too rejects that parallel between modern electronic data processing equipment and the brain, pointing out that the development of the brain and the way it adapts to its environment seems more like an evolutionary process, than the workings of a determinate engine.

It may horrify physicists, but a great many biologists view evolution as a creative rather than a strictly determinate process. Certainly Steve Rose holds that evolution actually creates information; and Gould explicitly states that if evolution on planet Earth could be run all over again then the outcome would not be the same. In fact, a common reaction among biologists is derision at the notion that evolution would exactly repeat itself, even from the same starting point. Biology is way more complex than physics, and information (whatever that is) plays a major and active role in biological systems.

But perhaps the foremost writer in the 21st Century Philosophy of Mind (so far!) is David J. Chalmers for his seminal " Facing up to the Problem of Consciousness" and the subsequent "Moving Forward on the Problem of Consciousness". HIghly recommended!

 

[Dillinger4]

I have read 'Facing up to the Problem of Consciousness', but not the other one.

*goes off to read*

 

[sleaterkinney]

They prey on the desorientated and the vulnerable. Junkies, alcoholics,people who lost every meaning in their lives, broken families etc...

As do all religions.

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah some cults do that, they keep their real beliefs secret for ages, even years sometimes, until the victim has been so emotionally destroyed and brainwashed, separated from their families and friends etc and having their personality subsumed into that of the group, that they will accept it because the only reality they know any more is that of the group and that of the leader.

Tbh there is very little that sickens me in this world as much as the people running those things do

 

[Jonti]

The sloppy "postmodernist" thinking that gives these charlatans room to operate disgusts me almost as much. The trouble with cults, is that even the dupers are duped, if you see what I mean. And this often goes all the way to the top, to the deluded cult-leader.

 

[frogwoman]

The sloppy "postmodernist" thinking that gives these charlatans room to operate disgusts me almost as much.

Yep

 

[Dillinger4]

The sloppy "postmodernist" thinking that gives these charlatans room to operate disgusts me almost as much. The trouble with cults, is that even the dupers are duped, if you see what I mean. And this often goes all the way to the top, to the deluded cult-leader.

Indeed.

://

 

[kyser_soze]

This may well be true in some parts of the world. But in Europe, and in particular in the USA, the "free-market" attitude towards religion means there are many charlatans duping people for money and sex.

You think it's limited to EU/US? Cult behaviour has been around centuries and takes in all religions, including Buddhism and Hinduism.

BTW, thx for the book recc - looks really interesting.

 

[Jonti]

Good point.

I was trying to understand Alde's report that vulnerable atheists are preyed upon by cults in his area that are seeking specifically political power. But on reflection it likely has more to do with those recruits sympathising with the wider political cause.

 

[Aldebaran]

edit: double post. Sorry.. I'm too tired to keep my eys open.

 

[Aldebaran]

I din't know much about the Nation Of Islam's recruitment tactics, but I'm interested to learn more, if you've any pointers. Their beliefs certainly seem pretty way out and extreme to the point of anti-human. I would not be at all surprised to discover that the usual gamut of mind-control tactics is deployed against its victims/members.

NOI is a political organisation covering itself up in a religious cloack, lumping together Biblical and Quranic texts, adding to that weird mix a very peculiar weird re-interpretation. Some time ago I came across a US site where they had a forum and I couldn't believe what I saw posted there.
I read a bit on it afterwards and it has every sign of it that their recruitment fields are mostly aimed at (black people) in jails, among all sorts of drug addicts (including alcoholics) and others in a desperate situation.

Considering the AA: They operate like so many of these "charities": take the whole package or leave it. If you don't buy their brainwashing I don't think you are very welcome.

Conderning Scientolgy/Creationism: I find it completely incredible that anyone with a brain can buy that nonsense. Really. It is absolutely stunning to observe.

By the way: I wasn't talking about cults in my part of the world. Except for the Modern Radicals (there were radicals enough previously in our history) they are mostly centuries older than the nonsense you get served in the US and other parts of the West I know a woman in Belgium who got caught in such a (US origin) Christian sect. She is as crazy about it as one can get (and I know her since childhood, so I don't say that lightly).


salaam.

 

[Jonti]

Considering the AA: They operate like so many of these "charities": take the whole package or leave it. If you don't buy their brainwashing I don't think you are very welcome.

Not at all; check the drugs forum on this site for chat about AA and NA. One of their slogans is "Take what you need and leave the rest" (meaning take from what the groups have to offer).

You *are* up late aren't you!

 

[frogwoman]

This has not been my experience in years of reading and posting on bulletin boards for cult survivors.

I'm not aware of any academic studies on the question, so unless you are, and can provide an url, we're just going to have to say we've gained quite different imprssions on this particular question.

There may well be a cultural explanation. In strongly religious societies it may well be that atheists are indeed vulnerable and exploitable in a way that they are not in the relatively secular UK and the "free market" USA.

Yeah. There are plenty of people who've been brought up in religious families and for whatever reason are disillusioned with their existing beliefs and want something different and end up joining them.

Someone who is very sure there is no god and is happy not being religious isn't going to be likely to join a cult either (although it's not impossible, given that there are cults organised around other belief systems than religion).

 

[Aldebaran]

Ah... the drug forums... virgin grounds

And yes I am
My back is killing me again for a change. (Injured it when I was 18 and innocently let my car kiss a little rock undercover as a dune.)
What is better to distract myself than looking at U75 where a strange convert-salafi just joined the ranks to keep the blood tension high?

But now I'm off. Eyes are burning from staring at screen etc... etc.. and I'm a bit crying too because of mentioned poster ruining my U75 reputation as a somewhat normal human being.

salaam.

 

[ebay sex moomin]

Conderning Scientolgy/Creationism: I find it completely incredible that anyone with a brain can buy that nonsense. Really. It is absolutely stunning to observe.

really?

Ok, I am inspired to type random thoughts in response to this- bearing in mind that 'everything you believe is wrong', you probably won't want to take it all that seriously.

I don't find it stunning that anyone would believe in Creationism- it's just a story that appears to explain, 'how we are here'. In this way 'the Big Bang' is also a story- it's science's story. The aborigines believe that God dreamed the world into existence. Some other dudes view the universe as a hologram that aliens created for their own amusement, and then buggered off leaving the motor running. It's just stories. For any one belief system to point to their idea and say, 'this is what REALLY happened' is just daft.

I saw this program about Stephen Hawking a few years back, and he talks about the universe expanding, and then hitting some kind of limit and then bouncing back, at which point he claimed 'time would start running backwards.' I thought, 'that's clearly nonsense.' Five minutes later, he admits he's effed up his calculations.

My point being, that for some unspecified amount of time, Hawking believed that time would run backwards at some point in the future, despite all evidence to the contrary; because that's what his calculations told him. Whereas someone without this blind faith in scientific procedure would not have the wool pulled over their eyes so easily.

Hawking is clearly an intelligent man, but if you tie yourself so strongly to one analytical standpoint, you are going to become a cropper.

Science is a Godless religion. The day that some scientists stop thinking it's ok to deprive a monkey of affection and keep him in a cage as an 'experiment', or to continually be thinking up more and more efficient ways to wipe out other human beings, I might have a bit more respect for them.

I'm going to end by quoting someone whose views I respect.


awakening wrote;

Although within the story of his-story there have been atrocities in the name of religion, the greatest horrors have not come from religion, but from power/politics, greed/economics and science devoid of 'heart.'

The crusades and the inquisition pale next First World War trench warfare or Nagasaki and Hiroshima. The 20 th century is the bloodiest so far in history and the science of weaponry has more to do with this, than any religious belief. Even so called religious wars -when looked into- were probably more about power and greed than about religion. Religion was often just 'hijacked' to 'legitimize' it for those who needed an excuse...but if it had not been available, it's easy to imagine that other justifications would have been found.

Science has given us the medicine against polio? Wonderful! It has 'given' us medicine as well as its many side effects. It has given us electric light as well as weapons of mass destruction. It has given us mechanical flight as well as pollution.

Religion has given us -next to 'the bad' you're so concerned with- some 'good' also. Pyramids, temples and cathedrals were the first attempts at great engineering and architecture. There is the requiem of Bach and the ave maria. Art of da Vinci and Michel Angelo, the Bagavad Gita and the Upanishads, Rumi and Hafiz, and the compassionate hearts of the Dalai Lama and mother Theresa.

Logic and intuition both have their place in this play and are inseparable. Only in dualistic imagination is there a 'clash' between the mountain and the valley.

 

[frogwoman]

good post, but science is not a religion. It's a set of methods and established facts which we use for understanding the world. It's different from religion, and it complements it rather than oppsoses it.

 

[ebay sex moomin]

I think to some people, it is. There's a paradigm that goes beyond the idea of science as a tool that serves us, into the idea of, say, a Grand Unified Theory of Everything; that this will be arrived at through science, is a type of faith, for example.

or in the case of psychiatry- the worship of particular chemical compounds as little miracles that will make everything ok. I've seen it in action!

Of course, science has the potential to complement religion or spirituality, but all too often they seem to be at opposite ends of a self-created battlefield, lobbing shells at each other