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The Death of the Soul

phildwyer

Plata o plomo
Banned
On the recent "God" thread, we learned that an overtly theist vocabluary is simply too much for most people to bear. Few seem able to carry on a discussion using terms like "God" or the "soul." In fact, the concept of the "soul" excited great derision, and many people took the imputation that they have a "soul" as a kind of *insult.* I wondered why this might be, and I believe I have now explained it.

This time, though, I shall approach the issue using purely secular terminology. This will mean working backwards historically, and beginning with the present day. Today, as I will show at a later stage, what used to be called the "soul" is called the "self." Many people, and especially many people on these boards, believe that the "self" is an illusion. I shall begin my analysis by asking *why* this belief has arisen.

Although materialism and economic determinism were associated with Marxism for most of the twentieth century, today those who argue most forcefully for the determining influence of the economy over other areas of life are neoclassical economists, who claim that rational self-interest motivates our every action, and sociobiologists, who locate this motive in the urge to preserve our genes. There has been a massive, co-ordinated campaign to bring intellectual respectability to the notion that market behavior is the authentic expression of human nature, by applying micro-economic theory and related quantitative techniques to the human sciences.

In this effort, the likes of Gary Becker and Richard Dawkins have been abetted by allegedly radical theorists like Donna Haraway and Judith Butler. The cumulative effect has been to establish an orthodoxy that is materialist in a wider, deeper sense than the Leftist materialism of the mid-twentieth century. Not only does the economy determine our ideas; ideas themselves are material, electronic and chemical reactions in the brain. Not only are the actions of human beings driven by material factors; human beings are themselves material, performative, desiring machines.

Within the ‘economy’ itself, the last twenty years have been characterized by ‘financialization.’ This term is used to describe the increasingly abstract, immaterial and purely symbolic nature of money in the ’new economy,’ which gave rise to such concepts as Enron’s ‘weightless corporation,' allegedly capable of creating value without producing anything at all. The rapid expansion of consumer debt and credit, the growing personal investment in the stock market, in short, the practical and ideological translation of life into financial terms, all interpolate a new kind of individual.

Whereas in the early stages of capitalism, economics assumed a rational subject able to suppress his or her desires and impulses and to defer gratification, the consumer economy demands a self which spontaneously and unreflectively acts on irrational desires. The kind of subject that can function successfully in a financialized environment, in fact, closely resembles the disparate, plural, differential self described (and sometimes advocated) by postmodernist philosophy.

The dominant strain in contemporary economics thus represents human activity in mathematical form, claiming on these grounds to have constructed an entirely rational, scientific discipline. It ignores the historical and social contexts within which that behavior takes place, eliminating such considerations by means of abstraction. In theory, neoclassical economics still regards human beings as rational agents. It assumes an individual who will make a cost-benefit analysis of any given situation, and act according to the results of that analysis.

In practice, however, the market economy appeals to manifestly irrational elements of human nature, evoking all kinds of hopes, fears, aspirations and insecurities. Furthermore, the microeconomic model of the rational, selfish, calculating individual serves as the basis on which macroeconomic models of global market behavior are constructed. Like the ‘invisible hand,’ in short, the individual posited by neoclassical economics is a chimera, a phantom, a theoretical representation of an actual human being.

The postmodern economy enacts a thoroughgoing, practical translation of human subjectivity into representational form. In wage labor, people exchange segments of their lives for money. Induced consumption encourages the construction of identity by means of brand labels. The stock market vivifies abstract human activity. At the theoretical level, neoclassical economics makes it possible to quantify in financial terms subjective human experiences such as credit, confidence and trust. These experiences are literally transformed into money. Hence the death of the Self.

Well that's a start at least. Next we will have to show how, why and when the "self" emerged from the "soul."
 
phildwyer said:
today those who argue most forcefully for the determining influence of the economy over other areas of life are neoclassical economists, who claim that rational self-interest motivates our every action, and sociobiologists, who locate this motive in the urge to preserve our genes. There has been a massive, co-ordinated campaign to bring intellectual respectability to the notion that market behavior is the authentic expression of human nature, by applying micro-economic theory and related quantitative techniques to the human sciences.

In this effort, the likes of Gary Becker and Richard Dawkins have been abetted by allegedly radical theorists like Donna Haraway and Judith Butler.

what an absurdly fatuous misreading of Butler (makes me wonder if you have ever actually read her work?!) The whole point is to CONTEST the very notion of an "authentic expression of human nature" - and she is absolutely resistant to determinism of both economic or biological varieties.

Your attempt to conflate the philosophical notion of subjectivity (legitimate if understood as decentred) and the theological concept of "soul" is only going to lead to spurious mysticism.
 
Many people, and especially many people on these boards, believe that the "self" is an illusion. I shall begin my analysis by asking *why* this belief has arisen.

Such as? Can you provide a single quote from these boards that supports this claim?
 
Crispy said:
Or
Capitalism is animals
We are all bonkers

I'd expand this to: capitalism assumes we're all animals because it assomes we're all out for material gratification and have no non-material values.

Human beings are bonkers because they don't really know their own minds [or souls or selves if you like].
 
phildwyer said:
Few seem able to carry on a discussion using terms like "God" or the "soul." In fact, the concept of the "soul" excited great derision, and many people took the imputation that they have a "soul" as a kind of *insult.*
I must have missed the bit where you showed that being antagonistic to God is a property of financial value and that we know this, not simply because you want to call it a "spirit"; that using terms like "spirit" doesn't automatically beg for the existence of the thing that you are trying to prove, and that it is *possible* to continue the conversation using such terms.
But I don't know who Judith Butler is so :oops:
 
merlin wood said:
I'd expand this to: capitalism assumes we're all animals because it assomes we're all out for material gratification and have no non-material values.

Human beings are bonkers because they don't really know their own minds [or souls or selves if you like].

Agreed. I see the holes in capitalism quite clearly, but I'm still sure my 'self' is a consequence of material things.
 
merlin wood said:
I'd expand this to: capitalism assumes we're all animals because it assomes we're all out for material gratification and have no non-material values.

Human beings are bonkers because they don't really know their own minds [or souls or selves if you like].
but surely animals are less materialistic than bonkers humans?
 
neilh said:
but surely animals are less materialistic than bonkers humans?
I wouldn't say so, we have simply been conditioned to be more materialistic by the society we have been born into. I'm not sure if humans are intrinsically materialistic.

I'm a bit out of my league on this forum but I will try and keep up with the big boys...a month's worth of a philosophy degree and a theology a-level is all that's keeping me going so far...:oops:
 
articul8 said:
Your attempt to conflate the philosophical notion of subjectivity (legitimate if understood as decentred) and the theological concept of "soul" is only going to lead to spurious mysticism.

Thats one of the most sensible things I've seen anyone say on any of your threads Phil.

What do you hope to prove this time? I await your words like the end of a didsaster movie you mental masturbator you. :p
 
I wait for Phil's threads like squirrels wait for spring - a new sense of hope and that all is cyclical and alright with the world :)
 
Jo/Joe said:
phildwyer said:
Quote:
Many people, and especially many people on these boards, believe that the "self" is an illusion. I shall begin my analysis by asking *why* this belief has arisen.

Such as? Can you provide a single quote from these boards that supports this claim?

Well, people have claimed that both consciousness and free will are illusions (see various free will discussions in the past in this forum), which doesn't leave much. I'm more inclined to believe the self is an illusion but not the other two. That is, reality is experienced <-> meaningful decisions are made, but the particular subjective point of view is false.
 
trashpony said:
I wait for Phil's threads like squirrels wait for spring - a new sense of hope and that all is cyclical and alright with the world :)
So not that there'll be a fresh crop of nuts, then?
 
FridgeMagnet said:
So not that there'll be a fresh crop of nuts, then?
Which will soon be buried, only to be dug up in a few months?

let's see how far this analogy will go, eh..
 
Well, people have claimed that both consciousness and free will are illusions (see various free will discussions in the past in this forum), which doesn't leave much.

Free will as illusion is the stock philosophical position and comes down to us from the ancient Greeks. But free will isn't the self anyway. I don't recall seeing anyone denying consciousness exists, but I may have just missed it. And phil is trying to imply that this is a popular postion on these boards, so he can build a straw man to knock down, but I just don't think it's the case.
 
The soles are a family (Soleidae) of flatfishes found in both oceans and freshwater, feeding on small crustaceans and other invertebrates. The family includes over 100 species. These species are bottom feeding and are carnivorous.

The distinctive features of the sole is a flat, oval body with the eyes paired up on the same side which makes it an exception for the rule of bilateral symmetry, although their eyes are located on different sides in early development.

The sole is adapted to live on the ocean floor with its eyes facing upwards and its blind side towards the bottom, often covered in mud which in combination with its dark colours makes it hard to spot.

If necessary, the sole can change colour to match its environment.

sole.jpg
 
articul8 said:
what an absurdly fatuous misreading of Butler (makes me wonder if you have ever actually read her work?!) The whole point is to CONTEST the very notion of an "authentic expression of human nature" - and she is absolutely resistant to determinism of both economic or biological varieties.

Your attempt to conflate the philosophical notion of subjectivity (legitimate if understood as decentred) and the theological concept of "soul" is only going to lead to spurious mysticism.

It seems that, once again, this gravest of subjects can only be discussed to the accompaniment of a cackling Greek chorus of irreverent mockery. This time, however, I am determined not to allow them to distract us from the issues at hand. I shall therefore ignore them entirely, and deal only with those who raise serious objections to my argument.

I fully accept that Butler is opposed to the notions of both an "authentic human nature" and determinism. That is my whole point. She does not believe in an independent consciousness, subject or "soul," and this is a position she and postmodernists in general share with scientific fundamentalists like Dawkins, and sociobiologists like Becker. All of them propound the ideological project of neoclassical economics, which is to claim that market behavior is natural. This does not involve claiming an "authentic human nature" because it is asserted that the natural world behaves in the same way as the market.

As to the identification of the "self," or "subject," with the "soul," you are correct that this is my intention. However, I have decided to approach the matter from a secular perspective initially, to avoid confusing the theophobes among us, as happened last time I tried something like this. So my argument has two stages: first to establish that the "self" is dying, and second to prove that the "self" is identical with the "soul."
 
888 said:
Well, people have claimed that both consciousness and free will are illusions (see various free will discussions in the past in this forum), which doesn't leave much. I'm more inclined to believe the self is an illusion but not the other two. That is, reality is experienced <-> meaningful decisions are made, but the particular subjective point of view is false.

Yes, Gurrier has been the loudest proponent of the absurd theory that consciousness is an illusion, but there have been many others. Anyway, I don't understand how you conceive of a "consciousness" without a "self." You say here that "reality is experienced." Well: *what* experiences it? I'm willing to jettison the notion that "will" requires a self, because I believe that there are forces that have wills but are not selves, but consciousness necessarily involves self-consciousness, which (obviously) involves a self.
 
Jo/Joe said:
Free will as illusion is the stock philosophical position and comes down to us from the ancient Greeks. But free will isn't the self anyway. I don't recall seeing anyone denying consciousness exists, but I may have just missed it. And phil is trying to imply that this is a popular postion on these boards, so he can build a straw man to knock down, but I just don't think it's the case.

You did miss it. It was claimed, by several people, that consciousness is an "illusion." This is, of course, a separate question to that of whether it exists--an illusion can exist. My argument is that consciousness both exists *and* is real. I agree that free will isn't the self, and that the self can exist without free will.
 
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