The current situation in Venezuela

[1%er]

Of cause the devastation isn't being shown on TV news or written about in the press, no-one wants to know what is going on there is no gain for them from it. If people knew what was going on many would be trying to help as happens on a weekly basis from people living in areas boarding the country.

 

[elbows]

I have to go with 1%er, elbows. What he's posting has the ring of (deeply depressing) truth. The Bolivarian experiment failed. Like it says in your own link:

""We voted and we won," said Mendoza, the hairdresser, as she choked back tears. "But now we see that all has been for nothing.""

I'm not fighting against that truth at all. I was getting in trouble from some pro-Chavez people in the previous Venezuela thread some years ago, even before Chavez was dead I had no need to avoid talking about the failures of his regime.

 

[Idris2002]

I'm not fighting against that truth at all. I was getting in trouble from some pro-Chavez people in the previous Venezuela thread some years ago, even before Chavez was dead I had no need to avoid talking about the failures of his regime.

Eventually, if failures accumulate on this level, it's no longer a regime with failures, it's a failed regime.

 

[1%er]

What do you think happens in a country where there is little food, no clean water, nothing to allow you to wash yourself, no jobs, no healthcare because there is no medicine, no electricity for days on end? Who is hit hardest by this sort of thing? It is the workers and the poor.

 

[elbows]

What do you think happens in a country where there is little food, no clean water, nothing to allow you to wash yourself, no jobs, no healthcare because there is no medicine, no electricity for days on end? Who is hit hardest by this sort of thing? It is the workers and the poor.

No shit.

I'm not trying to pretend this shit isn't happening. I'm being forced into this stance by your use of language.

For example there are not 'no jobs', 'no healthcare' and 'no medicine'. There are terrible shortages of many things and it is getting worse. But I make no apologies for trying to get collapse narratives to stay in tune with the realities of the moment rather than racing ahead some distance of where a country is actually at.

 

[1%er]

No shit.

I'm not trying to pretend this shit isn't happening. I'm being forced into this stance by your use of language.

For example there are not 'no jobs', 'no healthcare' and 'no medicine'. There are terrible shortages of many things and it is getting worse. But I make no apologies for trying to get collapse narratives to stay in tune with the realities of the moment rather than racing ahead some distance of where a country is actually at.

But there are no job (clearly some people have jobs) but there are no jobs for people who need one, if you are laid off that's it you will get a job anywhere else, there is no healthcare for the people I'm interested in and no medicine, the rich can buy a doctor to see them and maybe even able to get some pills, but I don't care about the rich I care about the poor and the workers, the rich will always be able to take care of themselves.

Tell me where a poor child is going to get healthcare or medicine? where are they going to get food and clean water? they can't go to school because they are closed.

You privileged people haven't got a clue, your arguing about words while kids are dying for the lack of medicine or power to keep hospital equipment running.

 

[elbows]

I'm arguing for an accurate portrayal of the situation. And even if I am a pedant at times, thats not killing the kids so you can piss off with the sentiment expressed in your last sentence.

What, for example, is the actual reality of the school situation in Venezuela? Closed? All the time?

 

[Buzz sw9]

1%er no pierda su tiempo elbows es una Coxinha

I still live in Venezuela and 1%ers picture of the situation is sadly very accurate.

 

[elbows]

Well if he doesn't waste his time on me then its just another dead thread here, doomed by a loss of posters in recent years and the overwhelming quantity of world events that seem to have dulled our ability to keep up & discuss it all.

I'm happy to be put down by people who have better access to facts than me. But it would be nice if these put-downs included a lot of accurate detail.

Are schools open or not? Are people actually starving to death? Given the number of vocal critics of the regime, I would have expected to hear far more about actual deaths if they were happening a lot. So give me something to work with please!

 

[trabuquera]

the point is elbows that in a contrast between (maybe) over-emotional but firsthand anecdotage from Venezuela itself, today, saying "things are in a terrible crisis", and secondhand academic theoretical carping from a long way away about "is that strictly accurate what you're saying?", there's a good deal more appeal to the first than the second. Though both may have strong elements of truth.

 

[elbows]

I don't see why there isn't room for both.

Its not academic to want to understand some details. If people want to go down the emotive anecdotal route then I don't claim its useless or counterproductive, but I do want a more detailed story and I will challenge inaccuracies without apology.

I mean seriously, I don't think its being a tedious academic or an out of touch privileged person to want to know if the school are actually shut, and if people are actually literally starving to death. I do care.

 

[elbows]

Also I have to say I'm having a hard time adjusting to the realities of this world events forum in the last year or two.

By this I mean many of my points are supposed to be small details, but when very few other people are contributing these points take on undue prominence and give a misleading impression of my priorities.

For example the fact there is a terrible crisis is the big story here. If nothing much else was happening in the world then the staggering inflation rate alone would be enough to generate many words by many people. But the world got so openly messy and so much ugly sliding change is underway that whole nations of woe are receiving little attention.

 

[trabuquera]

If people want to go down the emotive anecdotal route then I don't claim its useless or counterproductive, but I do want a more detailed story and I will challenge inaccuracies without apology.

honestly this seems a bit presumptuous when the other poster is IN the country under discussion and you aren't.

 

[elbows]

honestly this seems a bit presumptuous when the other poster is IN the country under discussion and you aren't.

I've been openly inviting my presumptions to be challenged with the questions I am asking, just as the same questions challenge the statements of others.

Being in the country is worth something, but I will openly question how much it is worth when basic questions about whether schools are still open go unanswered.

 

[CNT36]

honestly this seems a bit presumptuous when the other poster is IN the country under discussion and you aren't.

Katie Hopkins and Tommy Robinson are in the UK. Should that be enough to someone abroad to accept their take on events in the UK uncritically? No slur on 1%er intended.

 

[1%er]

I've been openly inviting my presumptions to be challenged with the questions I am asking, just as the same questions challenge the statements of others.

Being in the country is worth something, but I will openly question how much it is worth when basic questions about whether schools are still open go unanswered.

I am always happy to answers peoples questions but you didn't ask questions, you just quoted a news report and came across as a arse, so I treated you as such.

With regards to schools, some are open and some are closed. The education system in Venezuela is very different to that in the UK. Many private schools (fee paying, a very large sector in urban areas) are still open as students pay and those schools can afford to remain open (many have built water towers to keep a supply for toilets and bottled water for students and staff, some I have seen also have their own generators to ensure power supply) , with-in the state education system most of the schools are closed more than they are open for a number of reasons, lack of water and therefore no toilet facility's, power cuts, lack of teaching staff and the fact that public employees are being told to stay home as there is no money to pay them or to cut the use of energy. This effects many students as classes are split, some kids go in the morning and others go in the afternoon, public school is between 3 1/2 to 4 hours a day, some even open in the evening for kids that have to work during the day.

Yes people are starving, many are only able to find or afford enough food for one meal a day, if that, taking them back to the kind of life they had pre-Chávez, while it isn't the case that thousands are dying of starvation yet, people are getting sick for the reasons I mentioned above and lack of food, clean water, healthcare and medication means that many are dying unnecessarily for the want of basics.

 

[Idris2002]

FT story here mentions an ex-Chavista named Falcon as a possible "moderate" successor to Maduro:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/3/fb3f9582-0092-11e6-ac98-3c15a1aa2e62.html#axzz46exKrmf6

 

[Idris2002]

Mike Gonazalez is the Latin America expert for the SWP - with all that that implies.

This is him from 2014:

What has emerged in Venezuela is a new bureaucratic class who are themselves the speculators and owners of this new and failing economy. Today, as the violence increases, they are to be seen delivering fierce speeches against corruption and wearing the obligatory red shirt and cap of Chavismo.

But the literally billions of dollars that have “disappeared” in recent years, and the extraordinary wealth accumulated by leading Chavistas, are the clearest signs that their interests have prevailed. At the same time, the institutions of popular power have largely withered on the vine. The promises of community control, of control from below, of a socialism that benefited the whole population, have proved to be hollow.

Is Venezuela Burning? | Jacobin

 

[Idris2002]

Interesting paper from this year, but obviously not fully up to date, on the background to the crisis. A lot of detail I was previously unaware, but overall far too optimistic about the prospects for the renewal of the revolution:

Review of Radical Political Economics-2016-Lampa-0486613415623259.1.pdf

 

[elbows]

And now public sector workers are reduced to a 2 day week!

Venezuela introduces two-day week to deal with energy crisis - BBC News

 

[1%er]

Oh dear, last time I was in Venezuela people were saying "well we have no water but at least we can still drink beer", but not for long it seems. Polar will be closing its last remaining plant this week which will mean they have laid off around 10,000 workers, it is by far the biggest suppler of beer in the country, so it closing its beer production side of the business will have a knock on effect of other jobs associated with sale and distribution. Polar is claiming the government hasn’t allocated the dollars the company needs to pay for imported raw materials such as malted barley, the government allocates US$ to companies for international exchange at a rate some hundreds of time less than you'd pay on the street. Maduro has said the company is committing a criminal act and that the government will take over the factories, where they will get the materials to produce beer is anyone's guess.

The fact that some areas are now without power for extended periods has seen a massive increase in looting and other crimes, so what little there was in shops is now being stolen, and lets not forget that mains water is pumped to houses by local water-pumping stations, so when there is no power there is no water.

 

[1%er]

An interesting article here about how Operación de Liberación y Protección del Pueblo (Operation to Liberate and Protect the People) is going, it reads very much like the "pacification" police operation in Brazil leading up to the Olympics.

Both these operations are nothing more than ethnic cleansing, killing poor black and brown people mainly, but they don't seem to have been covered much in the outside world. A look at Google news appears to show very little coverage in US and European news-outlets. Thousands are being killed while the world looks the other way.

 

[Idris2002]

Now there's a sixty-day state of emergency:

Venezuela president declares 60-day state of emergency, blaming US for instability

Great idea guys, that'll work.

 

[Favelado]

An interesting article here about how Operación de Liberación y Protección del Pueblo (Operation to Liberate and Protect the People) is going, it reads very much like the "pacification" police operation in Brazil leading up to the Olympics.

Both these operations are nothing more than ethnic cleansing, killing poor black and brown people mainly, but they don't seem to have been covered much in the outside world. A look at Google news appears to show very little coverage in US and European news-outlets. Thousands are being killed while the world looks the other way.

Ask people in Rocinha or Complexo do Alemao how they think "pacification" is going. It more or less works when you've got a tiny favela that can be easily controlled by police - but not in anything with a population over a few thousand.

I'll never forget the sadness of my friend as she looked out over the vastness and beauty of nightitme Rocinha, a couple of months before the police were coming to take it over - 2000 of them - she turned to me and said, "Soon they're coming to take away all of our happiness." I thought she was guilty of apologism for the gangs, but she was right. Rocinha is more dangerous and less happy than before.

Pacification is a joke.

 

[1%er]

Pacification (the restoration of peace) through killing young black and brown people with total impunity.

When the police know they can get away with shit like this (look at the people standing in the street), it little wonder they just shoot first and ask questions later.

 

[Favelado]

Pacification (the restoration of peace) through killing young black and brown people with total impunity

It's not even working on its own terms though. Whereas before the gangs worked as de facto governments, and were therefore largely able to prevent crime occurring inside the favela, the police are simply unable to replicate the structures and community code that kept a lid on things. You have rival gangs shooting across the same favela now, whereas before it was only a police invasion or rival gang coming in that locals had to fear. The biggest favelas in Rio are bloodbaths at the moment.

Anyway, wrong thread but hopefully relevant in some way.

 

[1%er]

It's not even working on its own terms though. Whereas before the gangs worked as de facto governments, and were therefore largely able to prevent crime occurring inside the favela, the police are simply unable to replicate the structures and community code that kept a lid on things. You have rival gangs shooting across the same favela now, whereas before it was only a police invasion or rival gang coming in that locals had to fear. The biggest favelas in Rio are bloodbaths at the moment.

Anyway, wrong thread but hopefully relevant in some way.

Yes it has been a total fuck-up, the situation in most favelas is much worse now than it was before.

 

[Favelado]

Yes it has been a total fuck-up, the situation in most favelas is much worse now than it was before.

It does largely work in the smaller ones though e.g. Santa Marta - but so what? Even there there are the odd cases of the police doing a strangling or whatever and ruining the relationships they build.

 

[1%er]

It does largely work in the smaller ones though e.g. Santa Marta - but so what? Even there there are the odd cases of the police doing a strangling or whatever and ruining the relationships they build.

I guess that depends on how one defines "works".

 

[Favelado]

I guess that depends on how one defines "works".

There are some smaller communities where pacification has more or less worked. The police get on okay with the locals and there is no longer risk of a gang invasion after UPP take over. Santa Marta is one i was thinking of and there are others. They probably are genuinely more stable now. WWhen you get somewhere that's basically a small city rather than a single slope with a few hundred homes, the complexities increase exponentially and it is a total failure.