The current situation in Venezuela

[elbows]

Honestly I agree with all of that... and there were good reports fron Venezuelan anarchists sharead over the years.
I just brinkle at people who actively and repeatedly overthrow, or support the overthrowing of governments, then getting teary eyed about democracy.

And certainly threads like these will attract a few people who would have supported the overthrow of Chavez governments back when he had a clear democratic mandate. We should be able to spot those, and we should be able to avoid overcompensating in the opposite direction in a manner that tramples on the will of the people just as much as those coup attempts did.

And of course the regime will make use of that period of history in their current rhetoric. Every attempt to test the validity of the announced election result will be labelled a coup attempt. And some of the opposition leaders these days do have political histories that date back to that era of shit coup attempts. For example if I skim through the wikipedia entry for Maria Corina Machado (the opposition leader who was barred from standing in the election but still leads the group in reality), there is much that does not exactly fill my heart with joy. Including:

She also faced treason charges for signing the Carmona Decree during the 2002 Venezuelan coup attempt.[13][25] Machado said that she wrote her name on what she believed to be a sign-in sheet while visiting the presidential palace.

From María Corina Machado - Wikipedia

So yeah, I'm not exactly enthralled by any of the options. Right now I suppose I am most interested in how clear a picture we can actually get of the true election results.

 

[ska invita]

So yeah, I'm not exactly enthralled by any of the options.

Exactly... this "opposition" are even more undemocratic IMO. A vicious circle

 

[elbows]

Exactly... this "opposition" are even more undemocratic IMO. A vicious circle

Even if I hate their political and economic stances I cannot possibly describe them as 'even more undemocratic' if it turns out that they actually got the most votes in an election by a sizeable amount. If you fiddle an election then you are the most undemocratic force in the room, not the groups who actually won.

 

[ska invita]

Even if I hate their political and economic stances I cannot possibly describe them as 'even more undemocratic' if it turns out that they actually got the most votes in an election by a sizeable amount. If you fiddle an election then you are the most undemocratic force in the room, not the groups who actually won.

theyve been part of repeated coup attempts - they dont believe in democracy - like you said she signed the Carmona Decree and that was in 2002

 

[elbows]

Well there are altogether far too many forces in the world that only support democracy when they think its on their side and enables them to get into power.

This fact and the history of various people, when combined, still does not allow me to overlook the undemocratic tendencies and rigged games of the current regime. If I support the actual concept of democracy then I must condemn the rigging of elections, regardless of the nature of the opposition. And I have to look at what platform participants in the election stood on this time, what people were actually voting for. They were voting for change by democratic means. The only significant missing piece of the puzzle as far as Im concerned is that I dont actually know what the real voting numbers were.

 

[ska invita]

Of course.... Im not saying just look the other way at Maduro

But the press in Britain are looking the other way in their reporting....they actively ignore the oppositions repeated coup attempts and undermining of elected governments .... its a crucial element of the situation.

Regarding the count its very likely Maduro lost. And the repeated coupers and underminers won. So no justice to be found either way

 

[TopCat]

The capitalists were never going to accept election defeats without crying foul.

 

[Protag]

I haven't been following Venezuela at all but I know The Greyzone have been following this. I will read up. If someone could provide a summary of the GZ work that could be grand. The Greyzone have balls the size of a planet so I am sure it will be interesting.

 

[Protag]

Ah, a long-term regime change operation initiated by Saint Obama. Obama certainly let his hair down in his second term. US spreading democracy again.

 

[Protag]

Venezuela were a "threat to US national security". Venezuela must be the Hitler of South America.

 

[Rimbaud]

I haven't been following Venezuela at all but I know The Greyzone have been following this. I will read up. If someone could provide a summary of the GZ work that could be grand. The Greyzone have balls the size of a planet so I am sure it will be interesting.

The Greyzone is a piece of shit.

Grayzone, Grifters and the Cult of Tank

The sordid origin story of Max Blumenthal’s huckster cadre

medium.com

 

[Protag]

The Greyzone is a piece of shit.

Grayzone, Grifters and the Cult of Tank

The sordid origin story of Max Blumenthal’s huckster cadre

medium.com

I am sorry that they have hurt your feelings.

 

[petee]

I am sorry that they have hurt your feelings.

because his feelings, and not the content of what Greyzone push, is the point.

 

[Protag]

I'd better look at The Guardian, and I will start to read Christopher Hitchens, to get a sense of reality on the situation.

 

[Protag]

But don't worry, I wasn't expecting enlightenment here.

 

[Protag]

Actually, The Guardian is unintentionally funny, especially the comment section. The bourgeois bohemians have their line:

The Latin American left is smart not to pick a side over Venezuela’s contested election result | Jordana Timerman

Attempts to get Nicolás Maduro back to the negotiating table highlight the influence of a younger generation of voters, says journalist Jordana Timerman

www.theguardian.com

 

[Protag]

But as the old saying goes, today's news is tomorrow's fish and chip paper. The reality of the Monroe Doctrine is old news. Move along

 

[Rimbaud]

I am sorry that they have hurt your feelings.

Anything to say about the content of the article I posted?

 

[Rimbaud]

But as the old saying goes, today's news is tomorrow's fish and chip paper. The reality of the Monroe Doctrine is old news. Move along

You are an incredibly obvious Wumao BTW. I'm not going to tell you why you are obvious because I don't want you to learn from your mistakes though. Let's just say you clearly have ridiculously hackneyed understanding of the left. Putinbots tend to have a better grounding in western ideologies.

 

[pug]

Maduro bans Twitter for 10 days and says musk inciting far right, civil war etc.
musk called him a clown.

 

[teqniq]

This Elon Musk?

 

[Riklet]

It's obvious that Muduro has rigged this election at least partially. He knows losing it would have been the end of the "Bolivarian" revolutionary experiment. Which ironically he has fucked up as much as anyone with his policies and his authoritarianism. It's pretty much an advert of what not to do as a socialist government in the 21st century.

That said, things are a lot better in Venezuela (relatively) than 5 years ago. But still about 8mil nationals abroad, mainly in Colombia, The US, Spain. Lots less violence than before. Less inflation. More Venezuelans going back there on holiday and to visit.

I can't see the opposition getting anywhere with their protests at the moment. The US will back them to a degree publically, but their strategy has been more softly softly with Venezuela since the war in Ukraine - to limit Russian influence and ensure potential "friendly" oil reserves. Plus this is the 'Venezuelan democratic opposition' we're talking about - a load of neoliberal lunatics who arent adverse to a few military coups historically and who managed to ruin the country themselves way before Chavez.