The conspiracy files on BBC2 now about 7/7

[London Eye]

This isn't' an independent enquiry and pretending it should follow the same format is a straw man.

It's not an independent enquiry, but it should be an objective piece of journalism, and given it is such an important subject, I feel it should have delved into the government resistance to a independent enquiry. The style of the Conspiracy Files is far too dramatic and not journalistic enough. But maybe that is because many conspiracy theories are so outlandish it lends itself to being mocked. But it certainly isn't what I would call sober journalism of the Panorama or World in Action (remember that?) variety.

 

[8den]

The funny part of the whole "independent inquiry" is that troofers won't say what they would find as acceptable indepedent inquiry. Who's on the panel?

When they actually specific the demands they expect it's hysterical, in the We Are Change 9/11 NY demanded that three of their group would be part of the inquiry and (I'm serious) expected them to be on a six figure salary.

For fucks sakes

"We want the truth and we want an obscene amount of money exposing it!"

 

[paulhackett]

It's not an independent enquiry, but it should be an objective piece of journalism, and given it is such an important subject, I feel it should have delved into the government resistance to a independent enquiry. The style of the Conspiracy Files is far too dramatic and not journalistic enough. But maybe that is because many conspiracy theories are so outlandish it lends itself to being mocked. But it certainly isn't what I would call sober journalism of the Panorama or World in Action (remember that?) variety.

I think the clue was in the programme title? If you are dealing with as you say 'outlandish' theory then the journalistic approach is going to be affected both by the subject and the type of person who proposes those theories. Surely at some stage someone needed to stand up and challenge these theories, just as the govt. position is challenged?

I don't think having a programme on the subj. should necessarily preclude any other more journalistic approaches to the subject nor should it prevent a public enquiry? There's room for all approaches surely, and it gave BK (on behalf of others) to put her view across. No bad thing.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

It's not an independent enquiry, but it should be an objective piece of journalism, and given it is such an important subject, I feel it should have delved into the government resistance to a independent enquiry. The style of the Conspiracy Files is far too dramatic and not journalistic enough. But maybe that is because many conspiracy theories are so outlandish it lends itself to being mocked. But it certainly isn't what I would call sober journalism of the Panorama or World in Action (remember that?) variety.

Objective means not prejudiced and based on facts. That doesn't mean it can't conclude that the suggestions considered are unjustified. When there was truth behind the claims (like the train times) it was given. I'm not sure what was non-objective about the program.

This was not a documentary about the attack, this was a program about the conspiracy theories. You'll have to wait for that one.

 

[_pH_]

Because the passport wasn't the only personal effect from any passenger recovered from the WTC. And it's not like chairs and identifiable parts of the palnes turned up, you complete arsehole.

Some of the 7/7 bombers' ID was described by one of the trooffers as having 'survived intact. How can this be??!!1!!! Conspiracy!!11!!! '

Until they showed a pic of the ID in question - half burnt. So, not intact, and looking very much like it been in an explosion.

These people are just stupid.

 

[London Eye]

There is a great big yawning difference between thinking the Govt are a bunch of shits who lied about WMD etc, and thinking they organised the murder of 50+ people to prove ...to do...to achieve...what, exactly? How?

It's normal to be suspicious of the Govt but that doesn't mean you should believe any old totally irrational tripe about patsies, Mossad, actors, stuntmen, coverups, and all the rest of it.

I agree and there is no doubt that to have endured abuse from deluded people who think that abusing a survivor is somehow heroic is a terrible thing to have to go through and shows those individuals to be hypocrites on top of nasty human beings.

And I also agree that it is normal to be suspicious of government, which is why I remain sceptical of the government narrative. I feel there is something more to what happened on 7/7 that the government is not telling us, and I do feel at the very least an independent public inquiry must be allowed to investigate. Of course that will not satisfy everyone, but it may help restore some trust that we do live in a democracy that at least is seen to be accountable to the public.

 

[_pH_]

And I also agree that it is normal to be suspicious of government, which is why I remain sceptical of the government narrative. I feel there is something more to what happened on 7/7 that the government is not telling us, and I do feel at the very least an independent public inquiry must be allowed to investigate.

Is there much doubt about the 'official' narrative now that CCTV footage etc. has been released?

I thought the calls for an enquiry were more aimed at finding out what MI5 et al knew about the bombers and whether they made serious mistakes in not following up on intelligence adequately?

(BK? Any comment?)

 

[laptop]

Some of the 7/7 bombers' ID was described by one of the trooffers as having 'survived intact. How can this be??!!1!!! Conspiracy!!11!!! '

Until they showed a pic of the ID in question - half burnt. So, not intact, and looking very much like it been in an explosion.

I noticed that the troofer they were quoting about that deployed the "I can't imagine how..." argument. "Can't imagine how the ID could have survived."

Cue laptop yelling at laptop's laptop: "that's because your imagination is faulty, you silly silly man".

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

But it certainly isn't what I would call sober journalism of the Panorama or World in Action (remember that?) variety.

Panorama is a very long way from sober journalism these days IMO.

 

[_pH_]

I noticed that the troofer they were quoting about that deployed the "I can't imagine how..." argument. "Can't imagine how the ID could have survived."

Cue laptop yelling at laptop's laptop: "that's because your imagination is faulty, you silly silly man".

 

[chico enrico]

two points:

1) apologies if i'm missing something, but was it somehow verboten or politicaly incorrect to have said that the 7/7 bombings were the work of islamic fanatics? I said infront of a load of people in the pub a week or so before, during a discussion on whether Britain would 'win' the olympics, that I wouldn't be surprised with the world's press turned on London if there wasn't some sort of bomb plot in the days leading up to the decision. I was at work on the day of the bombings and didn't hear a single person suggest that the bombings could have been the work of anyone else. Who else could it have been anyway? The Welsh Language Society? SNLA? 'a disgruntled ex-employee'? a kid with a big bag of 'Super Snappits'?

2) do the 7/7 'truthers' who don't believe the 'government explanation' for those bombings hold similar doubts about the veracity of the 'official version' of events for David Copeland's nailbombing campaign? I know a certain Larry O'Hara did but as he appears to have disappeared/been banned for rather embarasing 'sock-puppetry' i'm not sure if we'l ever find out exactly on what grounds.

i kind of think not as it's only stuff like 9/11, 7/7 that allows them to invoke their stuff about NWOs , and as we all know there's generally an agenda behind that (no surprises who ostensibly had received the mysterious 'warnings' before both bombings )

etc etc.

it's just daft. folk who choose to believe this guff either want to for their own reasons or are more than likely poorly educated or simply credulous and gullible folk. It's just like being in a religious cult really.

 

[Badger Kitten]

And I also agree that it is normal to be suspicious of government, which is why I remain sceptical of the government narrative. I feel there is something more to what happened on 7/7 that the government is not telling us, and I do feel at the very least an independent public inquiry must be allowed to investigate. Of course that will not satisfy everyone, but it may help restore some trust that we do live in a democracy that at least is seen to be accountable to the public.

The campaign for an independent inquiry is still live and so are the judicial review proceedings....

Is there much doubt about the 'official' narrative now that CCTV footage etc. has been released?

I thought the calls for an enquiry were more aimed at finding out what MI5 et al knew about the bombers and whether they made serious mistakes in not following up on intelligence adequately?

(BK? Any comment?)

The calls for an inquiry are not about 'did the bombers do it', everyone apart from hardcore conspiracy theorists accepts they did. It's about could it have been prevented, is the terror strategy working properly, have learnings been shared ( and lessons learned), what went right what went wrong...

Andy Hayman, the top cop at the time has just released a book about being behind the scenes at 7/7, 21/7, de Menezes.

In it he calls for an inquiry and goes through loads of fairly shocking stuff. It was serialised in the Times.


Last night, an injunction was taken out against it - it was about to hit the shelves today!

Wtf?

I have a copy already. I got it off amazon on pre-release and it arrived last night.

I am speed reading it to find out what the problem is.

I will phone Sean, the guy who serialised it at the Times in a mo as well and see if I can discover what is going on...

 

[Badger Kitten]

...he's n/a but spoke to someone else and it is nothing that exciting, a possible contempt issue re. a trial that's not started yet.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

a certain Larry O'Hara did but as he appears to have disappeared/been banned for rather embarasing 'sock-puppetry' i'm not sure if we'l ever find out exactly on what grounds.

You aren't 'confused' you are a despicable lying little cretin, regurgitating a lie--that I posted under another user's ID--that was initially encouraged by a so-called moderator here, and although retracted, it allows trash like you to repeat it. Which is why I will not engage further on this forum: if it tolerates liars like you, then its not for me. As for 7/7, that, and a rather sharp exchange by me with the J7 campaign, will follow, but not on this forum.

 

[chico enrico]

errr...sorry, but the way I remember it I posted up a couple of responses to your comments re the Copeland nailbombing campaign asking you to clarify, and also sent you a PM. You said you would deal with this in 'due time'. But you didn't, you kind of disappeared. My genuine apologies if I misunderstood the reason, if the moderator's accusation was false i unreservedly withdraw my 'regurgitating' of it.

My point , within the context of this thread, was simply why a 'conspiracy theory' hasn't attained any great populist resonance amongst 'truther' circles regarding Copeland's campaign. Both on your website and in your 'news from the borderline' magazine you have executed excellent debunkings of conspiracy theories and exposed the shadowy agendas behind many of their protagonists.

But, and even despite buying the copy of your mag that I believe flagged it on the cover, I cannot recall quite why it was ever suggested that there WAS any conspiracy surrounding the nailbombings. Though I do remember something vague about the security services knowing Copeland's identity after the first bombing but allowing him to carry out his subsequent atrocities to facilitate the arrest of some greater menace. Which, if correct, is a hypothesis I simply find impossible to subscribe to.

 

[8den]

The most risible part was when the programme endorsed the fairytale about the 9-11 hijacker's passport surviving (to be found by an FBI agent).

Jazzz YOU COMPLETE AND TOTAL FUCKTARD

The passport was recovered by NYPD Detective Yuk H. Chin from a male passerby in a business suit, about 30 years old. The passerby left before being identified, while debris was falling from WTC 2. The tower collapsed shortly afterwards. The detective then gave the passport to the FBI on 9/11.

IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT 9/11 or 7/7 THAT YOU CAN MANAGE TO GET RIGHT?

 

[QueenOfGoths]

Just watched this on iplayer.

BK, you came across brilliantly as always Your comments about 'well you've seen the conspiracy theorists' side of the story....here's ours' were spot on.

Some of the supposed evidence of a conspiracy was just laughable, e.g., the fact that the controlled demolition company who were touted as having been involved in some way with the explosions turn out not to use explosives at all

Best bit for me was Kollerstrom watching the CCTV and being made to look the total arse that he is

Just watched this on the DVD and want to endorse the above

BK you were great - a beacon of reason, the conspiracy theory evidence was risible - I especially liked Nick Kollerstrom being showed the CCTV evidence of the bombers together, what an idiot! - and was very concerned by the Imam of the Birmingham mosque.

Such divisiveness, in the face of so much evidence, helps no one.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Ah cheers QOG. Big news this morning Mail now officially gunning for an inquiry, with another big story today, written in a slightly conspiraloony manner, but never mind, that's quite good actually as a tactic, wallops the pressure up another notch...the Mail is the one the Government are most freaked out by so if the Mial are getting hysterical about 7/7 conspiracy theories and demanding an inquiry, way to go.

 

[laptop]

Mail now officially gunning for an inquiry, with another big story today, written in a slightly conspiraloony manner...

I have a bad feeling about this.

Today's story's a total mishmash of conspiraloonery randomness... as though someone had made notes while watching the programme with a spliff or five.

And is the Mail's calculation that in the run-up to the election they try to throw every piece of shit at NuLabor in the knowledge that some will stick? It usually is.

 

[editor]

Stupid, irresponsible Daily Mail morons.

Here's the kind of BNP-fuelling, right-wing shit the author knocks out:

They're back: Mass of migrants queue up at Calais to reach 'Promised Land' UK
Why are so many foreign patients allowed to come here and take organs donated to the NHS?
Polygamy UK: This special Mail investigation reveals how thousands of men are milking the benefits system to support several wives
The great white backlash: Working class turns on Labour over immigration and housing

 

[8den]

Stupid, irresponsible Daily Mail morons.

What a fucking shite piece of journalism, it looks like he just watched the conspiracy files (or half watched it) and rewrote what he saw.

 

[laptop]

Here's the kind of BNP-fuelling, right-wing shit the author knocks out:

And it just took me 11 seconds to stumble across her mobile number

I was, in fact, looking to see whether she was more likely to be a real person or a house pseudonym...

 

[claphamboy]

I’ve only just got around to watching this and I would just like to take my hat off to Badger Kitten, again, for the work she has undertaken on this.

It purports to be 'fair and balanced' but of course the idea is to ridicule anything other than believing the official version.
<snip shitloads of usual Jazzz crap>

Of course you would say that dear, because frankly you are a fucking fruitloon of the highest order, fuck knows why anyone still bothers to engage with you on here.

 

[Jazzz]

Jazzz YOU COMPLETE AND TOTAL FUCKTARD



IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT 9/11 or 7/7 THAT YOU CAN MANAGE TO GET RIGHT?

I stand corrected 8den! Thank you for enlightening us as to how the incredible indestructible passport (it survives plane crashes when the black boxes do not) was found:

The passport was recovered by NYPD Detective Yuk H. Chin from a male passerby in a business suit, about 30 years old. The passerby left before being identified, while debris was falling from WTC 2. The tower collapsed shortly afterwards. The detective then gave the passport to the FBI on 9/11.

'excuse me Mr Policeman, I'm just passing by. This would appear to be miraculous and utterly crucial evidence concerning whatever it is just the fuck happened. You might want to have a look at it. I'm sorry I cannot help you further, goodbye'

 

[8den]

I stand corrected 8den! Thank you for enlightening us as to how the incredible indestructible passport (it survives plane crashes when the black boxes do not) was found:

You thick ignorant rancid little shit

"Orange County, CA., Sept. 11 - Lisa Anne Frost was 22 and had just graduated from Boston University in May 2001 with two degrees and multiple academic and service honors. She had worked all summer in Boston before coming home, finally, to California to start her new life. The Rancho Santa Margarita woman was on United Flight 175 on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, when it became the second plane to slam into the World Trade Center...

Her parents, Tom and Melanie Frost, have spent two years knowing they will never understand why.

A few days before the first anniversary of our daughter's murder, we were notified that they had found a piece of her in the piles and piles of gritty rubble of the World Trade Center that had been hauled out to Staten Island. It was Lisa's way, we believe, of telling us she wasn't lost.

In February, the day of the Columbia tragedy, we got word they'd found her United Airlines Mileage Plus card. It was found very near where they'd found a piece of her right hip. We imagine that she used the card early on the morning of Sept. 11 to get on the plane and just stuck it in her back pocket, probably her right back pocket, instead of in her purse. They have found no other personal effects".

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:tI2PQRqfJiIJ:www.msnbc.com/local/MYOC/M324557.asp

United Airlines Flight 93 slammed into the earth Sept. 11 near Shanksville, Somerset County, at more than 500 mph, with a ferocity that disintegrated metal, bone and flesh. It took more than three months to identify the remains of the 40 passengers and crew, and, by process of elimination, the four hijackers...

But searchers also gathered surprisingly intact mementos of lives lost.

Those items, such as a wedding ring and other jewelry, photos, credit cards, purses and their contents, shoes, a wallet and currency, are among seven boxes of identified personal effects salvaged from the site.

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011230flight931230p3.asp

Personal affects from passengers turned up at all three sites you delusional contemptible fuckwit.

'excuse me Mr Policeman, I'm just passing by. This would appear to be miraculous and utterly crucial evidence concerning whatever it is just the fuck happened. You might want to have a look at it. I'm sorry I cannot help you further, goodbye'

Or Jazzz what would you have done? "Mr Policeman in the middle of a mass terrorist attack I expect you to ID me take my name and address and properly insure the chain of evidence, and if you excuse me, I'll get right on that after I 'lattempt to get in your name and identity while I should be. y'know, focusing, on helping on the evacuation of down town Manhattan.

Jazzz just how retarded are you?

 

[EddyBlack]

Or Jazzz what would you have done? "Mr Policeman in the middle of a mass terrorist attack I expect you to ID me take my name and address and properly insure the chain of evidence, and if you excuse me, I'll get right on that after I 'lattempt to get in your name and identity while I should be. y'know, focusing, on helping on the evacuation of down town Manhattan.

Jazzz just how retarded are you?

Jazzz isn't retarded.

 

[8den]

Jazzz isn't retarded.

We'll agree to disagree, shall we?