Test being done in Teesside of 100% Hydrogen replacement in gas mains
- Thread starter BigTom
- Start date
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
All answers suck for aviation, short of us just using it less. Maybe one day battery tech will get there, but it's decades off. All sorts of things are being worked on, but at the moment the most realistic option is that aviation continues to use hydrocarbons and have to offset it some way. It's sort of the opposite of shipping, where any technology will be an improvement on the unfiltered bunker oil exhaust they spew out.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Airbus unveils hydrogen powered airliner plans - The Engineer
Airbus has revealed three zero-emission hydrogen fuelled commercial aircraft concepts that it claims could enter service by 2035.
www.theengineer.co.uk
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
Ooooh! That "Zero-E" stuff burns me up! The direct hydrogen burning reaction does take H2+O2 and make H2O, but because you're doing it with air - not stored liquid oxygen - you get NOX emissions.Airbus unveils hydrogen powered airliner plans - The Engineer
Airbus has revealed three zero-emission hydrogen fuelled commercial aircraft concepts that it claims could enter service by 2035.
Anyhow, anything still proposed as 15 years away I'm going to take with a grain of salt. Fusion's been there for my entire life!
WouldBe
Dislicksick
Lithium batteries are not only used in cars. There is a poster on here that recently reported her mobile phone bursting into flames. I don't see that you can just take car batteries into account for safety purposes.
American cars are notorious for bursting into flames if they hit anything bigger than a small pebble. Fuel tanks are designed better in the UK.
Burning hydrogen may produce some NOx when burnt but how much pollution is produced in mining, extracting lithium not to mention making the batteries?
Hydrogen is recyclable. When it's burnt it produces water which is what it can be made from.
Is it? It would work out far cheaper to modify existing boilers, cookers etc than to upgrade the whole electricity grid to cope with increased electric demand. As for fueling fossil fuel companies from what I've seen most of them are investing in renewable energy.
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
More people have smartphones. laptops, and similar devices than they have cars. The vast majority of users never experience explosive/incendiary battery failures. I'd say that the argument that they are rare still holds true.
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
You're talking out of your arse there.
Green hydrogen is a myth, and if we DID make it, it would be at the cost of wasting 2/3rds of the energy extracted making hydrogen out of it. Thermodynamics isn't broken. Hydrogen fuel cells are basically just a very inefficient battery.
You can have:
Sunlight --> solar cells --> electricity --> electrolysis --> wet, impure hydrogen --> purification --> dewatering --> compression --> storage --> transportation --> fuel cell --> electricity --> travel
or
Sunlight --> solar cells --> electricity --> power grid --> batteries --> electricity --> travel
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
The problem with a "hydrogen economy" is that it can't work (at least not in terms of climate change) without a surplus of non-carbon energy generation. If we'd been busy replacing fossil fuel plants with fission reactors since the 1970s, or if we were to develop commercial fusion power in the future, then using hydrogen would make more sense. But currently we're kind of stuck if we want to use hydrogen in that way.
Judging from the direction that the consumer automotive industry is going, they seem to be placing their bets on battery electric vehicles, with hybrid engines as a somewhat distant second choice (mostly plug-in hybrids and mild hybrid engines). By stark contrast, I've yet to see any hydrogen-fuelled vehicles crossing my desk.
Judging from the direction that the consumer automotive industry is going, they seem to be placing their bets on battery electric vehicles, with hybrid engines as a somewhat distant second choice (mostly plug-in hybrids and mild hybrid engines). By stark contrast, I've yet to see any hydrogen-fuelled vehicles crossing my desk.
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
There have been a couple of hydrogen cars developed specifically for the California market. I haven't heard anything nice about them. The Mirai's fuel tank is 87.5kg, and holds 5kg of H2. That's the sort of inefficiency cars have to work with. It gets better as it scales up, so it's a possibility for rail freight but H2 for cars is a poor second to BEV.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Hydrogen car test on M25 deemed a 'success' | New Civil Engineer
Daily motorway safety inspections were carried out during a two-week trial of the Toyota Mirai vehicle in September. If the trial results are considered
www.newcivilengineer.com
Hydrogen car breaks record for longest continuous drive - erpecnews live
farmerbarleymow
I'm Petee's spirit animal
teuchter
je suis teuchter
These articles are both about 5 years old and describe one-off trials. For anything like that, it's always worth trying to find if there's any further reporting on whatever was being tried. Because these things are often funded on a one off basis and much of their value for companies that take part is just in press releases.Hydrogen car test on M25 deemed a 'success' | New Civil Engineer
Daily motorway safety inspections were carried out during a two-week trial of the Toyota Mirai vehicle in September. If the trial results are considered
Hydrogen car breaks record for longest continuous drive - erpecnews live
www.erpecnewslive.com
On the other hand you'll notice that all the commercial development is going into electric cars, not hydrogen ones.
Hydrogen cars look to be a dead end. Looks like the same is true for buses (even though they were trialed by TfL and others).
Might have some use in heavy freight (road and rail) but largely it doesn't appear to make sense for transport. I think a lot of this is down to quite a lot of improvement in battery technology, relatively recently, which is why the picture wasn't clear even 5 or 10 years ago.
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
Ummm... I mentioned fertiliser production. Ammonium Nitrate.
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
Airships are the way forward for aviation.
The thing that will push things on is large scale graphene production, you could put H in graphene tanks at 500 Bar.
To give you an idea of the strength of graphene, to push the point of a pencil through a sheet one molecule thick, it would take the same force as balancing an elephant on the end of the pencil.
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
Replace hydrogen with petrol and gas for liquid and you have the same situation.
More so, because on release hydrogen dissipates very rapidly, petrol or diesel doesn't. We've all seen the areas of badly burned hard shoulder where a car has gone on fire.
I probably won't live to see it, but I am absolutely confident that hydrogen is the way forward. (Well, my father made it 84, which if I get the same, is another 14 years, so I might.).
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I'd enjoy a dedicated thread examining this claim.
Wolveryeti
Detty Pig
teuchter
je suis teuchter
It produces NOx too.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Antonia is burnt as it is as a replacement for heavy fuel Oil. It doesn’t go through further the process to make ammonium nitrate fertiliser if you are using it for fuel or as an ‘electricity storage mechanism’ .
WouldBe
Dislicksick
Seems a lot for plastic reinforced tank.
Don't recall the 5' high steel cylinders for lab gas being that heavy.To whoever mentioned about NOx emissions that doesn't happen in a hydrogen fuel car as it uses a fuel cell to chemically combine the hydrogen with oxygen.
E2a:as for inefficient Toyota claim that 5Kg of hydrogen will do around 300 miles so it's similar to a petrol fuel tank.
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
The NOx comment was on the aircraft, which were proposed to be H2 burning. Fuel cells are a bit silly - you have to have a battery in the system anyway to handle the load fluctuations. Why not ditch the fuel cell and make it all battery? There are BEVs that can do better than 300 miles!
Edit: I should add that I was all in for hydrogen 10 years ago. But the progress that battery technology has made in that time is astounding. Hydrogen cannot get denser, but battery technology still can. I think it's already more compelling than H2, and it will only get better.
Edit: I should add that I was all in for hydrogen 10 years ago. But the progress that battery technology has made in that time is astounding. Hydrogen cannot get denser, but battery technology still can. I think it's already more compelling than H2, and it will only get better.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
You should be able to handle load fluctuations by altering the flow of H2 to the fuel cell.
Advantage of H2 over battery is you can refill an H2 tank in 3-5 mins. Recharging a battery takes a lot longer than that. As you were concerned about the weight of the 'tank' a Tesla 3 battery weighs 540Kg.
Probably the main reason H2 is not taking off as much as electric is that most houses have electricity so the car can be charged over night whereas where do you find a filling station that had hydrogen. If hydrogen was being pushed by the fossil fuel companies you'd think they would have speeded up the installation oh H2 filling stations.
farmerbarleymow
I'm Petee's spirit animal
I think there used to be liquid hydrogen (along with stuff like LPG) stored in the old salt workings on Teesside. Might be why they're trialling this there. Remember thinking that if the area was nuked it would probably leave a huge crater after all that stuff went up.Grand total of 11 H2 filling stations in the UK.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
BigTom
Well-Known Member
Tesla V3 supercharger will get you to around 150mile range in 15-20 min (real world, Tesla say 15min for 150-200miles).
That's not a lot more time and there's only one circumstance where you'd expect to be waiting for that time which is on long journeys where we should be encouraging people to take 15-20min breaks every 3-4 hours anyway. (We're not quite at that range yet but not far off so won't be long).
Outside of that, charging an EV should take 30sec to plug it in and 30sec to unplug it. The time it's charging is time you are using for something else, whether that's being asleep as the car charges overnight on a slow charger, or being at work, or going to the shop or gym or whatever with fast chargers.
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Chz
Stark Raving Sane
That's actually the second reason why they put them in H2 fuel cell cars.
