Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
Oh, I didn't know this actually. Seems it changed in 2022.
Rewilding initiatives
- Thread starter danny la rouge
- Start date
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
"Beaver bombing" is a thing. Look it up.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
Sorry, but there’s no way I’m doing an internet search on a term like that suggested by someone on this midden of a web forum.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
I think our local beavers, who are doing very well, were unofficially introduced by parties unknown.
Obviously all the farmers wanted to go out and kill them all immediately. Same farmers who moan about losing land to flooding, a problem beavers are noted experts at solving.
I like giraffes. I reckon we should get some of those too.A few zebra would be nice.
Tiger victim's 18th Century headstone restored in Malmesbury
The 18th Century headstone of Hannah Twynnoy has been restored following a campaign in Malmesbury.
www.bbc.com
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
I did look it up.
www.theguardian.com
The “Countryside Alliance” (more accurately, the big landowners and agri business alliance to bully and browbeat rural labour) is trying to find ways of being annoyed while seeming “pro nature” (which of course they aren’t).
www.countryside-alliance.org
‘Beaver-bombing’: unauthorised rodent releases on the rise in English rivers
Experts say trend is because of failure by successive governments to approve releases despite promises
The “Countryside Alliance” (more accurately, the big landowners and agri business alliance to bully and browbeat rural labour) is trying to find ways of being annoyed while seeming “pro nature” (which of course they aren’t).
Tim Bonner: The hypocrisy of the ‘beaver bombers’
Countryside Alliance Chief Executive, Tim Bonner, looks at the 'hypocrisy' of the casual attitude taken by some campaigners towards 'beaver bombing'.
www.countryside-alliance.org
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
It's good but the animals only get protection when they get designated as native animals. Until then farmers or sports hunters can go out and shoot them whenever they want. It seems most boar reintroductions (accidental or not) have failed because of this, though they have stuck around in the Forest of Dean, partly because the Forestry Commission makes money from selling their meat to posh restaurants.
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
Those are not wild boar.
What they are is a wild boar crossed with a commercial type pig. Loads mysteriously "escaped" when a farm producing them went bust. Unlike true wild boar they can breed about every 5-6 months like a commercial pig as opposed to annually for true wild boar and can have 10-12 piglets per litter like commercial pigs as opposed to 2-4 like true wild boar. That is why they are fucking everywhere in the Forest of Dean and even though there's a massive cull, they can't keep on top of them.
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
I have no issue with large semiferal bovids being used for habitat maintenance. However, all since registering by selective breeding something that looks like something that used to exist is pseudoscience which not only sounds a bit Nazi but actually is a bit Nazi.
By heck, these pseudo-aurochs are probably descendants of the Heck brothers Heck Cattle.
When the Nazis Tried to Bring Animals Back From Extinction
Their ideology of genetic purity extended to aspirations about reviving a pristine landscape with ancient animals and forestswww.smithsonianmag.com
The creators of these "aurochs" think they are pretty quiet, but I know Heck cattle were supposed to be fucking mad.
All a bit weird when Highland cattle exist, are pretty quiet and would do exactly the same thing.
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
I would say the opposite.
It's damaging but extremely efficient at producing vast quantities of cheap food. This is why it is difficult to replace - the more environmentally friendly forms of farming yield loads less, and in terms of cropping are a bit more vulnerable to harvest failure. This is why we can't just go organic overnight, it needs to be a slow transition to more sustainable agriculture so that we can get systems right and mitigate for failures. Also, whatever we do, within the confines of the current political system, more sustainable ag will make food more expensive.
This Vox article has some misconceptions, but is kind of right about what went wrong.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
Now if we could cross a zebra with something with horizontal stripes the resulting tartan creature would be ideal for the Highlands.A few zebra would be nice.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Maybe, they're looking at the biggisg game hunting market 12-18% of scotland is covered in grousemoors. It might be profitable to turn some of them into auroch praries.
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
trashpony
Hag
As the guy who runs the beaver colony for Kent wildlife trust told me, beavers are no respecter of fences.
There’s a big beaver dam on the Stour in central Canterbury which isn’t far from the station if people want to see them.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
All the boars in europe now have domesticated pig in their genes, but I don't think that's an argument against having wild boar. It may mean they need to be culled more, but look at how much pig people eat - better that they live a life in the wild than in a small shed.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
It's a trial before you know it they'll be cloning them and seeling the shooting rights to Minesotta dentists.
Humberto
anthropocene participant
I was hoping you would come back in knowing it's your expert area. I've bookmarked the article for the morrow,
Less yields here in the UK only means pressures overseas too within the current strictures/inertia (slashing rainforest to compensate our food supply while we fuck about).
But as you say it's more accurate to say it's unsustainable in the longer term in a number of ways than simply less efficient.
But farming is as corporate as any other aspect of the economy (happy to be schooled).
There's a food security question, quality. But there's also a political dimension, sustainability as you say and decline of nature which we take for granted.
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
The issue with the UK (and quite a lot of "developed" northern Europe) is that land has been farmed for millenia - obviously there have been various land clearance events over the last thousand years or so that have greatly increased the area of land farmed. I read quite an interesting paper that suggested that once you had cultivated soil, it essentially never returns to its "original" state.
So, lots of the habitats, flora, fauna and fungi that we wish to conserve are a result of pre-industrial farming and not "wild" in any sense of the word. Farming exists in pretty much every landscape in the UK (some less so now see: the Highland Clearances, for example). So, what we end up with is something called "agrobiodiversity" which encompasses the biodiversity within species farmed and the other organisms (soil, "weeds" etc) that it encourages.
Agrobiodiversity is also worryingly on the decline - the less diversity in livestock and crops, the less resilient and the less biodiverse (also in terms of non-utilised species these encourage).
I would suggest that within the UK, closing the stable door after the horse bolted sometime between the Roman conquest and the enclosure acts is pretty futile and lots of these projects seem to be vanity projects for the extremely landed (see: Knepp) that also, by sheer coincidence (obviously) seem to be very well positioned to claim hundreds of thousands of taxpayer's cash in the form of the new subsidy schemes. It's nice to have beavers and stuff, but they do alter watercourses and since the UK is so heavily built on, these two things are bound to come into conflict sooner or later.
Hohm, M., Moesch, S.S., Bahm, J., Haase, D., Jeschke, J.M. and Balkenhol, N., 2024. Reintroduced, but not accepted: Stakeholder perceptions of beavers in Germany. People and Nature, 6(4), pp.1681-1695.
My main worry about all of this really is that the UK and other spots with a similar climate (see NZ) are pretty resilient in terms of rainfall and soil and are probably well positioned to be farmed with the least destructive effects and what we are doing by taking land out of production in these areas is exporting that biodiversity loss to the developing world. Indeed, I think the best candidates for rewilding arte places that are adjacent to wildernesses and until recently have been part of them. Recolonisation would be much simpler there.
Nobody really knows what a "wild Britain" is anymore, or what it should look like.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
I'm not sure you're really responding to what all rewilders are trying to do Funky_monks . We share a low opinion of Knepp, and its unfortunate that site got seen as a flagship rewilding project. What rewilding is meant to do, for other people, is not return to some point in ecological time. whether it's a thousand years ago or ten thousand. It's meant to create new ecosystems more biodiverse than what we have currently, not as a way of going back but as a way of moving forward, creating ecosystems that have never existed before.
I agree btw that rewilding very productive agricultural land is probably counterproductive, since our food has to be grown somewhere. But quite a lot of UK land is used for sheep farming or grouse shooting, partly because its marginal land with few agricultural uses. To me that's the land that should be being rewilded.
I agree btw that rewilding very productive agricultural land is probably counterproductive, since our food has to be grown somewhere. But quite a lot of UK land is used for sheep farming or grouse shooting, partly because its marginal land with few agricultural uses. To me that's the land that should be being rewilded.
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
As far as I'm aware, grouse moor that has been rewilded has suffered quite a drop in biodiversity. I'll dig out some studies when I can find them.
I know its the current "thing" to knock sheep farming, but again, removing them doesn't mean you are going to suddenly get lots more biodiversity, in face in some cases, the opposite as this, 22 year project shows: Should we graze the uplands of Scotland? | SEFARI
Edited to add: you also have the issue that in most pf those sheep farming areas, people live and work and certainly in Wales and Scotland, the locals see it as an extension of English colonial attitudes - they see an empty wilderness devoid of people, and thus the people who do live and work there are seen as being irrelevant.
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Boris Sprinkler
Dont be scared
<Awaits announcement of deep-fried battered auroch burgers..>
pogofish
Testicle Hairstyle
White tailed eagles were extinct in the UK for 70 years but were successfully reintroduced in the 70s and 80s in Scotland with birds from Norway and now we have 150+ breeding pairs. There's another project on the Isle of Wight in its infancy too.
White-tailed eagle reintroduction and conservation
How the reintroduction of the white-tailed eagle plays a role in rewilding.www.rewildingbritain.org.uk
One of the original reintroduction sights is near me and they have settled-in really well - Its quite something to have one fly within feet of you when walking along the path!
Red Kites too but they have never been reintroduced in Aberdeenshire. The breeding pairs here have spread naturally from the original 2014 sites in I think Highland Perthshire, without any help from humans! The mixed forestry/upland/agricultural land of Aberdeenshire is am absolutely ideal habitat for them
nogojones
spelling is overrated
I was amazed when I thought I saw an eagle over in Donegal earlier this year. I then checked and realised they had been re-introduced.White tailed eagles were extinct in the UK for 70 years but were successfully reintroduced in the 70s and 80s in Scotland with birds from Norway and now we have 150+ breeding pairs. There's another project on the Isle of Wight in its infancy too.
White-tailed eagle reintroduction and conservation
How the reintroduction of the white-tailed eagle plays a role in rewilding.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
It's frustrating that everyone seems to bring some dishonesty to their arguments. When I look at the chart there, it's true that 'no grazing' is bad for beetles and meadow pipits. As a result they conclude 'so there are winners and losers'. But 'no grazing' was better for literally everything else. Far more winners than losers. So the conclusion reads strangely to me. I think a more reasonable conclusion from that data would be 'let's create some reserves specifically for meadow pipits and beatles and remove grazing from a lot of the rest of it.'
As for the english colonialism angle, I really think this is a line propagated by wealthy landowners who are happy with their subsidies. Sheep farming employs very few people, by it's nature. It's true that getting rid of destructive industries sucks for the people employed in them, but it's not many people compared to having to find new jobs for everyone in the arms industry or something, which I'd equally like to get rid of.
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
This is an interesting attitude.
The FAO diagram above specifically mentions knowledge from indigenous communities, why then are we happy to accept this when this falls outside of the UK but not within it?
Hill farmers tend to be asset rich but fairly cash poor for the most part. Also you seem to forget that upon those huge estates, lots of land was farmed by tenants and not landowners - until the changes in Agricultural tenancies in the 90s, you could inherit a tenancy so there were definitely generational tennant farmers.
Indeed, one of the things that the huge estates started to do when subsidy became all about the environment with the creation of ELMS is kick all their tennants off, although DEFRA changed the rules last year to stipulate that only 25% of land could be in the schemes, but it was a bit late for many by then.
I went to a talk about the SEFARI project and your conclusion is definitely at odds with the scientists involved.
I think most rewilding projects are, in effect to garner subsidy - the huge landowning charities, the "green lairds" and the quangos were very keen to get their hands on the "Landscape Recovery" pot of money, although this has now been somewhat reduced.
I really don't think UK rewilding projects know what they want really (except access to funding) given that "rewilding" as an idea within the context of the UK landscape is a very nebulous idea and many very biodiverse habitats van be recreated much more easily by looking at pre industrial methods of land management, eg water meadows for hay, conservation grazing etc as well as modern approaches using "old" ideas such as mob grazing
Cell grazing supports double the livestock per hectare of set-stocking and delivers environmental benefits | Rothamsted Research
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Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
Not sure what the value of saying 'rewilders want subsidies' is. Farmers want subsidies too. Almost no rural land usage in the UK can make money in a globalised world so everyone wants subsidies. Farmers also want to produce a bit of food, and rewilders are also motivated by wanting to increase biodiversity.
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