Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France

[inva]

Who's doing that?

I think a number of posters have been reading his actions in the worst light possible. Tiny snippets of quotes misread and used to condemn him. I'm not going to name people invidually if that's what your asking.

 

[chilango]

it might be more productive to look at other examples where someone hasn't been brutally beheaded in order to discuss the issues we are.

(such as sex ed, religious assemblies in the UK etc.)

 

[belboid]

Not at all. That's literally what happened.

Exactly what happened seems to be in some dispute, so excuse me for not accepting you have been given special insight.

but Paty’s precise words are not the point, it is the choice of material that will mean that many Muslim pupils (or children of Muslim parents if you prefer) will not feel able to take part in that part of the lesson.

 

[Spymaster]

In my first teaching practise The Head held a Christian assembly. I went and sat with the JW kids in another room. He shouldn't have held that assembly. The DfE shouldn't pressure schools to have them and the JW kids shouldn't be sat in a different room to their peers during a collective activity.

If kids are sent to a faith based school it would be unreasonable to be pissed off about them experiencing faith based ideas. If they are sent for a purportedly secular education it's not unreasonable to question why kids are taught lessons that requires a teacher to invite them to opt out according to their religion.

 

[brogdale]

We don't know whether or not they were warned. And you're speculating about the arrangements for care of any kids who chose to step out for what needn't have been more than 10 seconds!

And the idea that kids don't know which of their peers are Muslims and which aren't is ridiculous.

Fourteen year olds are capable of deciding where our not to conform with religious rules, and old enough to understand that such choices have consequences. They didn't ought to be encouraged to think the world will comply with the rules of their religion.

If we don't know exactly what happened, we're all speculating; I thought that was a given.

Taking those points 1 by 1:

Second guessing the time out of the classroom is very much in the realms of speculation.

14 year olds are children and cannot reasonably be expected to have a secure understanding of their own beliefs, but they are old enough to be very aware of peer pressure and family/community expectations of them.

 

[chilango]

Afaik all "maintained schools in England "must provide daily collective worship" and this "must reflect the fact that religious traditions in this country are, in the main, Christian."

source

 

[Athos]

Exactly what happened seems to be in some dispute, so excuse me for not accepting you have been given special insight.

but Paty’s precise words are not the point, it is the choice of material that will mean that many Muslim pupils (or children of Muslim parents if you prefer) will not feel able to take part in that part of the lesson.

Oh come on. Do you really think there's any chance that he forced hitherto 'undercover' muslim kids to out themselves, then ordered them out of the classroom? Or do you think it's overwhelmingly more likely that he gave a warning that the picture might offend some, and offered all pupils the opportunity to avoid seeing it? Which is to say that children's religious choices not to participate in that very small part of the lesson was respected and accommodated.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Shouldn’t have the religious component at all, then no one has to leave.

I don't think they do nowadays. As I said, this was a long time ago when I believe it was the law to have "christian worship" every day in state schools.

 

[belboid]

Oh come on. Do you really think there's any chance that he forced hitherto 'undercover' muslim kids to out themselves, then ordered them out of the classroom? Or do you think it's overwhelmingly more likely that he gave a warning that the picture might offend some, and offered all pupils the opportunity to avoid seeing it? Which is to say that children's religious choices not to participate in that very small part of the lesson was respected and accommodated.

Your knowledge grows by the second! Now you know exactly how the lesson was broken down too!! Disingenuous bullshit, I’m not playing your game.

 

[chilango]

"Each pupil must take part in a daily act of collective worship unless they have been withdrawn by their parents, or if in the sixth form they have decided to withdraw themselves"

 

[Smokeandsteam]

If kids are sent to a faith based school it would be unreasonable to be pissed off about them experiencing faith based ideas. If they are sent for a purportedly secular education it's not unreasonable to question why kids are taught lessons that requires a teacher to invite them to opt out according to their religion.

You‘ve really got yourself into a mess with your twisting and turning on this haven’t you? The whole point of a secular education is, purportedly, to open students minds up to ideas and thought that confronts religious/sacred ideas of all hues. That was this teachers job to deliver a secular curriculum.

 

[Athos]

Your knowledge grows by the second! Now you know exactly how the lesson was broken down too!! Disingenuous bullshit, I’m not playing your game.

I've not claimed to know what happened. But, people seem to be advancing two possibilitites: i) that he forced the Muslim kids to identify themselves and leave; or, ii) that he provided a content warning and offered those who wanted to leave the chance to do so. For some reason, you and others seem keen to traduce the murdered worker (essentially as a racist) by suggesting it was the former, despite: a) it being reported by the Prosecuter that the teacher contested that version of events; and, b) it being intrinsically unlikely that he would behave that way. It's you that is being disingenous.

 

[danny la rouge]

In your view Danny could it be seen as racist? Regardless if certain people ‘get it’ and it’s not ‘meant’ to be racist. Could it reasonably be seen as racist? (Cos it looks like crude racial stereotypes to me).

That’s the problem with satire. It can be misunderstood. I know where they’re coming from. But you’re right, lots of people read the cartoons as racist. tim has confidently declared CH cartoons as racist, for example.

There were very long threads at the time of the CH massacre and butchers and I were pretty much alone in defending CH at that time. (Apologies if I’ve forgotten others). This thread feels like a bit of an improvement to that extent. Depressingly.

But look at what’s happening. A teacher is given the task of teaching a class on freedom of expression. Not something he just took it on himself to do. The materials he uses are materials teachers all over France are using. He isn’t being some edgelord. He’s discussing how in modern France these materials some find offensive. I have experienced similar classes as a kid. I have given similar classes as a post secondary educator. Other teachers and educators on this thread will have done too. The idea that it was “lol, up yours, Muslims” is ludicrous.

And as for singling out Muslims, he gave people the opportunity not to view the cartoon(s). (Some reports still say it was one, but others plural). Why are we saying that meant all the Muslims would leave? Some might not. Even some who would be offended still might stay. Why are we assuming that being offended is one reaction only? Don’t you ever look at things you find offensive? I do. Being offended is a range of reactions.

Also, some people who weren’t Muslim would be offended by the cartoons. Tim is. Offended non Muslims may include some who wouldn’t want to see the cartoons.

None of us was in the room. We are speculating about the lesson plan of a man delivering a lesson he was tasked to deliver and being murdered as a result.

Is French education perfect? Of course it fucking isn’t. Are all teachers perfect? Of course they fucking aren’t. But let’s stop dancing on the head of a pin over the lesson plans of a man who was murdered for doing his job. It really, really, really makes anyone quibbling in that way a cunt. And not in the sense of fanny.

 

[danny la rouge]

I think a number of posters have been reading his actions in the worst light possible. Tiny snippets of quotes misread and used to condemn him. I'm not going to name people invidually if that's what your asking.

Absolutely. And it’s sickening.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That’s the problem with satire. It can be misunderstood. I know where they’re coming from. But you’re right, lots of people read the cartoons as racist. tim has confidently declared CH cartoons as racist, for example.

There were very long threads at the time of the CH massacre and butchers and I were pretty much alone in defending CH at that time. (Apologies if I’ve forgotten others). This thread feels like a bit of an improvement to that extent. Depressingly.

But look at what’s happening. A teacher is given the task of teaching a class on freedom of expression. Not something he just took it on himself to do. The materials he uses are materials teachers all over France are using. He isn’t being some edgelord. He’s discussing how in modern France these materials some find offensive. I have experienced similar classes as a kid. I have given similar classes as a post secondary educator. Other teachers and educators on this thread will have done too. The idea that it was “lol, up yours, Muslims” is ludicrous.

And as for singling out Muslims, he gave people the opportunity not to view the cartoon(s). (Some reports still say it was one, but others plural). Why are we saying that meant all the Muslims would leave? Some might not. Even some who would be offended still might stay. Why are we assuming that being offended is one reaction only? Don’t you ever look at things you find offensive? I do. Being offended is a range of reactions.

Also, some people who weren’t Muslim would be offended by the cartoons. Tim is. Offended non Muslims may include some who wouldn’t want to see the cartoons.

None of us was in the room. We are speculating about the lesson plan of a man delivering a lesson he was tasked to deliver and being murdered as a result.

Is French education perfect? Of course it fucking isn’t. Are all teachers perfect? Of course they fucking aren’t. But let’s stop dancing on the head of a pin over the lesson plans of a man who was murdered for doing his job. It really, really, really makes anyone quibbling in that way a cunt. And not in the sense of fanny.

I am others.

 

[danny la rouge]

I am others.

Apologies. I do remember.

 

[butchersapron]

That’s the problem with satire. It can be misunderstood. I know where they’re coming from. But you’re right, lots of people read the cartoons as racist. tim has confidently declared CH cartoons as racist, for example.

There were very long threads at the time of the CH massacre and butchers and I were pretty much alone in defending CH at that time. (Apologies if I’ve forgotten others). This thread feels like a bit of an improvement to that extent. Depressingly.

But look at what’s happening. A teacher is given the task of teaching a class on freedom of expression. Not something he just took it on himself to do. The materials he uses are materials teachers all over France are using. He isn’t being some edgelord. He’s discussing how in modern France these materials some find offensive. I have experienced similar classes as a kid. I have given similar classes as a post secondary educator. Other teachers and educators on this thread will have done too. The idea that it was “lol, up yours, Muslims” is ludicrous.

And as for singling out Muslims, he gave people the opportunity not to view the cartoon(s). (Some reports still say it was one, but others plural). Why are we saying that meant all the Muslims would leave? Some might not. Even some who would be offended still might stay. Why are we assuming that being offended is one reaction only? Don’t you ever look at things you find offensive? I do. Being offended is a range of reactions.

Also, some people who weren’t Muslim would be offended by the cartoons. Tim is. Offended non Muslims may include some who wouldn’t want to see the cartoons.

None of us was in the room. We are speculating about the lesson plan of a man delivering a lesson he was tasked to deliver and being murdered as a result.

Is French education perfect? Of course it fucking isn’t. Are all teachers perfect? Of course they fucking aren’t. But let’s stop dancing on the head of a pin over the lesson plans of a man who was murdered for doing his job. It really, really, really makes anyone quibbling in that way a cunt. And not in the sense of fanny.

LBJ did good work then too.

Edit: too late

 

[Spymaster]

The whole point of a secular education is, purportedly, to open students minds up to ideas and thought that confronts religious/sacred ideas of all hues.

That's by no means a universally accepted view and if it were, is it best served by treating kids of one religion differently to those of another? And please leave out the snide comments. I've been perfectly polite to you and it's possible to discuss this without the ad hominem stuff.

 

[belboid]

I've not claimed to know what happened. But, people seem to be advancing two possibilitites: i) that he forced the Muslim kids to identify themselves and leave; or, ii) that he provided a content warning and offered those who wanted to leave the chance to do so. For some reason, you and others seem keen to traduce the murdered worker by suggesting it was the former, despite: a) it being reported by the Prosecuter that the teacher contested that version of events; and, b) it being intrinsically unlikely that he would behave that way. It's you that is being disingenous.

I have said repeatedly that whatever language Samuel Paty chose is not the point. It is the choice of material, material that was not required to deliver the relevant learning outcomes, that causes problems and exclusions.

 

[Athos]

That's by no means a universally accepted view and if it were, is it best served by treating kids of one religion differently to those of another?

All the kids were treated the same. All given the same opportunity to see or not see the material (which was relevant to the topic).

 

[belboid]

The whole point of a secular education is, purportedly, to open students minds up to ideas and thought that confronts religious/sacred ideas of all hues.

It isn’t. It is about a separation of church and state, and stopping catholic (in particular) domination of education. It was explicitly not anti-clerical.

 

[belboid]

All the kids were treated the same. All given the same opportunity to see or not see the material (which was relevant to the topic).

Ooh, we’re back to that equality and equity meme.

 

[Athos]

I have said repeatedly that whatever language Samuel Paty chose is not the point. It is the choice of material, material that was not required to deliver the relevant learning outcomes, that causes problems and exclusions.

There is literally no more relevant, current, and relateable material on the topic of freedom of expression in France than those cartoons. But, notwithstanding that, you'd have denied access to it for all students, to comply with the religious rules of some of them.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

All the kids were treated the same. All given the same opportunity to see or not see the material

Precisely.

 

[Athos]

Ooh, we’re back to that equality and equity meme.

There's nothing inequitable about people bearing the cost of their own religious choices; there is about imposing those choices on others.

 

[chilango]

We are talking about an imposition of secular values on religious kids (and/or families) here. We might agree with doing that (I do, I think) but let's not pretend its any less of an imposition than the DfE shoving Christianity down kids throats in the UK - which I would hope we disagree with.

These aren't neutral positions.

 

[xenon]

If kids are sent to a faith based school it would be unreasonable to be pissed off about them experiencing faith based ideas. If they are sent for a purportedly secular education it's not unreasonable to question why kids are taught lessons that requires a teacher to invite them to opt out according to their religion.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Point if order: until proven otherwise can we just assume that Paty was doing his job as requested and reserve any criticism if you have any for the school/system?
Thanks

 

[Spymaster]

All the kids were treated the same. All given the same opportunity to see or not see the material (which was relevant to the topic).

Oh come on. It's clear that the opt-out was aimed at the Muslim kids. That's like saying 'everyone who wears a bra can opt out' and then arguing that males were also given the choice because they can wear bras too. It's true but disingenuous.

 

[danny la rouge]

Point if order: until proven otherwise can we just assume that Paty was doing his job as requested and reserve any criticism if you have any for the school/system?
Thanks

Absolutely.