Tell me about heat pumps

[danny la rouge]

but that doesn't mean it's more climate friendly to heat with gas.

Yes, that’s what prompted my enquiry. You see, I’m really quite concerned about the climate.

 

[Riklet]

There's no cavity space to incorporate insulation into typical Scottish stoneclad tenement flats. The only way to include insulation is a) to insulate between floors which has to be done by the upstairs neighbour and b) internally insulate which means losing square footage and possibly period decorations like cornicing.

True I was talking about my 60s/70s council house tbh!

They could still insulate the roof of the building and change the windows. They could also put hanging underfloor insulation under wooden floors in just their flat and it would still be better than nothing.

These heat pumps are pretty good and gas is v expensive now so tbh it would probably still save money in the long term even running at lower efficiency. But not in the short term. That's why I wont do it. As for the environmental argument there's so many factors to consider but for sure a small gas boiler which runs in condensing mode is hardly that big an impact.

I think we need more district heating for whole neighbourhoods personally.

 

[teuchter]

Yes, that’s what prompted my enquiry. You see, I’m really quite concerned about the climate.

The thing is, that making old housing stock more energy efficient, is one of the most difficult areas to make a difference at a reasonable cost. I don't think many people appreciate this. I don't think "Insulate Britain" even appreciate how difficult it is.

I don't really think that people in smallish flats with limited budgets should feel that they are the ones who ought to be making big changes.

I do think there might be newer, easier and cheaper options available in 5-10 years.

 

[equationgirl]

True I was talking about my 60s/70s council house tbh!

They could still insulate the roof of the building and change the windows. They could also put hanging underfloor insulation under wooden floors in just their flat and it would still be better than nothing.

These heat pumps are pretty good and gas is v expensive now so tbh it would probably still save money in the long term even running at lower efficiency. But not in the short term. That's why I wont do it. As for the environmental argument there's so many factors to consider but for sure a small gas boiler which runs in condensing mode is hardly that big an impact.

I think we need more district heating for whole neighbourhoods personally.

Most tenements tend to have double glazing these days. The situation with roof usage can be complicated because it's not always owned by the flats directly underneath the roof on the top floor, it can be owned collectively by the whole close, which means to do anything with the space every owner has to agree to the expenditure.

If there's a factor (management company involved) doing the work can be fairly straightforward but if even one owner balks at the cost - and as a first floor flat owner I would think long and hard about work that probably won't directly improve my energy bills - then the work won't get done.

 

[teuchter]

Flats can have terribly insulated walls but also be actually not that bad for heat loss overall - because compared to some detached house in the countryside they have quite a low proportion of external wall. Normally to each side, and above and below, are other heated flats, not cold outside air (although I know Glasgow tenements often have a freezing stairwell to one side).

I live in an upstairs flat, and insulated the floor between it and the flat below, but that was really mainly to try and dampen noise - any thermal insulation benefits probably mainly go to the people downstairs not me. I could probably be stealing their heat more effectively without the insulation.

 

[Riklet]

Most tenements tend to have double glazing these days. The situation with roof usage can be complicated because it's not always owned by the flats directly underneath the roof on the top floor, it can be owned collectively by the whole close, which means to do anything with the space every owner has to agree to the expenditure.

If there's a factor (management company involved) doing the work can be fairly straightforward but if even one owner balks at the cost - and as a first floor flat owner I would think long and hard about work that probably won't directly improve my energy bills - then the work won't get done.

True, but you can insulate a whole roof for about 200 quid. It's getting someone to do it that costs more but even then it's the cheapest insulation by miles.

But then yeah the management companies are bastards and would probably make it difficult for people to just do it themselves. I would probably not tell them and just do it if everyone agrees. It makes a huge difference.. something like 30-40% of heat loss is through the roof.

 

[Leafster]

If there's a factor (management company involved) doing the work can be fairly straightforward but if even one owner balks at the cost - and as a first floor flat owner I would think long and hard about work that probably won't directly improve my energy bills - then the work won't get done.

I don't know whether it's an issue in Scotland but here in England there can be issues with the leases. Often, even if the management company is owned and run by the lessees, they are hampered by the terms of the lease. Leases often talk about repair or reinstatement with no scope for improvement. As a result, anything which may be considered an improvement like cavity wall or roof insulation, can't be undertaken as there's no legal means of recovering the costs from the lessees.

Also, if a lessee took it upon themselves to commission work and pay for it there may be clauses in the leases concerning obligations to fellow lessees so anything which might impact common parts of the buildings would not be allowed under the leases. I had this issue in my old place. It was in a block of six but with two flats (including mine) on one side of a communal stairway and four on the other. Both me and my downstairs neighbour wanted to instal cavity wall insulation and pay for it ourselves in our part of the building. It was refused by the management company (under advice from their agents) because it would involve the common parts of the building (the walls) and there was nothing in the lease to allow it.

It seems to me that retrofitting most of the UK's leasehold (or the legal equivalent in Scotland) housing stock to improve energy efficiency needs legislation to allow energy efficiency measures to the common parts of the buildings to be treated as repairs rather than improvements.

 

[teuchter]

Both me and my downstairs neighbour wanted to instal cavity wall insulation and pay for it ourselves in our part of the building. It was refused by the management company (under advice from their agents) because it would involve the common parts of the building (the walls) and there was nothing in the lease to allow it.

Do you think it was a genuinely difficult-to-solve-legally problem, or just that they had no incentive to bother?

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't know whether it's an issue in Scotland but here in England there can be issues with the leases. Often, even if the management company is owned and run by the lessees, they are hampered by the terms of the lease. Leases often talk about repair or reinstatement with no scope for improvement. As a result, anything which may be considered an improvement like cavity wall or roof insulation, can't be undertaken as there's no legal means of recovering the costs from the lessees.

Also, if a lessee took it upon themselves to commission work and pay for it there may be clauses in the leases concerning obligations to fellow lessees so anything which might impact common parts of the buildings would not be allowed under the leases. I had this issue in my old place. It was in a block of six but with two flats (including mine) on one side of a communal stairway and four on the other. Both me and my downstairs neighbour wanted to instal cavity wall insulation and pay for it ourselves in our part of the building. It was refused by the management company (under advice from their agents) because it would involve the common parts of the building (the walls) and there was nothing in the lease to allow it.

It seems to me that retrofitting most of the UK's leasehold (or the legal equivalent in Scotland) housing stock to improve energy efficiency needs legislation to allow energy efficiency measures to the common parts of the buildings to be treated as repairs rather than improvements.

Aye, it’s somewhat different in Scotland.

 

[Leafster]

Do you think it was a genuinely difficult-to-solve-legally problem, or just that they had no incentive to bother?

I think it was genuine. Years before, we used to run the management company ourselves and continually came across stuff we couldn't do as the leases wouldn't allow it. That was why we ended up employing a Managing Agent to ensure we could comply with all the legislation.

I've also been involved in reviewing service charge accounts as part of a legal case where work was undertaken on a property outside the scope of the lease and it got very messy.

 

[what]

Forgot to say if cash is important the best return on investment is draught proofing. Not just the howling gales but the lots of little ones too

 

[teuchter]

I think it was genuine. Years before, we used to run the management company ourselves and continually came across stuff we couldn't do as the leases wouldn't allow it. That was why we ended up employing a Managing Agent to ensure we could comply with all the legislation.

I've also been involved in reviewing service charge accounts as part of a legal case where work was undertaken on a property outside the scope of the lease and it got very messy.

You can have leases altered though, if everyone agrees to it.

 

[equationgirl]

I don't know whether it's an issue in Scotland but here in England there can be issues with the leases. Often, even if the management company is owned and run by the lessees, they are hampered by the terms of the lease. Leases often talk about repair or reinstatement with no scope for improvement. As a result, anything which may be considered an improvement like cavity wall or roof insulation, can't be undertaken as there's no legal means of recovering the costs from the lessees.

Also, if a lessee took it upon themselves to commission work and pay for it there may be clauses in the leases concerning obligations to fellow lessees so anything which might impact common parts of the buildings would not be allowed under the leases. I had this issue in my old place. It was in a block of six but with two flats (including mine) on one side of a communal stairway and four on the other. Both me and my downstairs neighbour wanted to instal cavity wall insulation and pay for it ourselves in our part of the building. It was refused by the management company (under advice from their agents) because it would involve the common parts of the building (the walls) and there was nothing in the lease to allow it.

It seems to me that retrofitting most of the UK's leasehold (or the legal equivalent in Scotland) housing stock to improve energy efficiency needs legislation to allow energy efficiency measures to the common parts of the buildings to be treated as repairs rather than improvements.

There's no leases in Scotland, all residential properties are freehold or feed (shared ownership of freehold) as far as I am aware.

But each factor operates on a different basis to manage properties. Most tend to err on the ineffective or shit side.

As for access to the roof, given the height of the ceiling and proxi.ity to the top of the stairwell, I wouldn't even want to attempt to get in. And god only knows what it's like in the space.

 

[Leafster]

You can have leases altered though, if everyone agrees to it.

True, we had the original leases (written in the 1960s) reviewed when I lived there and did get them altered to remove some glaring omissions and some out of date bits but it was costly, and as you say, you need to get everyone to agree. IIRC correctly we had to involve the Land Tribunal (?) so that we could change them based on a majority of lessees rather than all of them.

I was really trying to point out an issue which could hold back attempts to improve the energy-efficiency of existing (leasehold) housing stock.

 

[two sheds]

Forgot to say if cash is important the best return on investment is draught proofing. Not just the howling gales but the lots of little ones too

I'm pleased with the magnetic strip secondary glazing I fitted, and the insulating wallpaper makes the room warm up quicker.

 

[JimW]

Our heating is an air source exchanger, was a big govt backed scheme to have them put in here to stop people burning solid fuel in the old kang bed platforms, so subsidised and the leccy is low rate too, as insulation is crap. It runs radiators in our new rental, which is a bit roomy, high ceilings and manages to make it decently warm in the colder winters we get here but it's not as good as the underfloor system we had in the old place. Still not super cheap and you see a lot of old folks collecting wood so suspect a fair few neighbours still light their kang as well/instead.

 

[teuchter]

I was really trying to point out an issue which could hold back attempts to improve the energy-efficiency of existing (leasehold) housing stock.

Yup sure and it sounds like something that you could actually sort out via legislation and stop something that ought to be straightforward being made difficult... without obvious downsides.