Taliban attack army school in Pakistan

[Humberto]

Who or what created this dynamic of destruction might be a good place to start. Where do 'we' go forward from this? That is everyone who wants to understand it and see an end to it. Are not western meddling and corporate greed involved? To just dismiss them as savages which was an often used term of British colonialism is going to get backs up. Also, how can they act so utterly without mercy to women and children? That is towards the nearest and dearest of their REAL enemies.

Also I can't see this as primarily a religious motive. But that is another question perhaps. So what was it? Revenge? As someone said earlier we don't really get the news of what happens to their children in the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan.

The US has put pressure on Pakistan govt to squeeze the Taliban, as well as sending drones which are killing people (many of whom are innocent civilians) by people based thousands of miles away. What do you consider would be your reaction if your kids were bombed by a drone? Such a cold clinical faceless manoeuvre. We cannot know how far you can push people whose values and mindset we don't even understand.

So to place blame is not so simple.

I might get a deluge of furious reaction here, but I'm just trying to understand it myself.

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

I agree with Humberto. The most probable motive (and there always is one) is that people who've seen their own kids (and other people's kids that they know) killed in more than one incident.

After all, didn't we do more or less that ourselves in WW2? Didn't we bomb the fuck out of Dresden as revenge for Coventry? Children would have been involved in all of that.

 

[coley]

I agree with Humberto. The most probable motive (and there always is one) is that people who've seen their own kids (and other people's kids that they know) killed in more than one incident.

After all, didn't we do more or less that ourselves in WW2? Didn't we bomb the fuck out of Dresden as revenge for Coventry? Children would have been involved in all of that.

Piss off, to try comparisons between WW2 and the actions of terrorists/ freedom fighters/insurgents is the worst form of lazy thinking I can imagine.

 

[Humberto]

Piss off, to try comparisons between WW2 and the actions of terrorists/ freedom fighters/insurgents is the worst form of lazy thinking I can imagine.

Sorry Coley, and I don't really want to risk another derailment or whatever but there was an element of revenge in Dresden was the point.

 

[coley]

Who or what created this dynamic of destruction might be a good place to start. Where do 'we' go forward from this? That is everyone who wants to understand it and see an end to it. Are not western meddling and corporate greed involved? To just dismiss them as savages which was an often used term of British colonialism is going to get backs up. Also, how can they act so utterly without mercy to women and children? That is towards the nearest and dearest of their REAL enemies.

Also I can't see this as primarily a religious motive. But that is another question perhaps. So what was it? Revenge? As someone said earlier we don't really get the news of what happens to their children in the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan.

The US has put pressure on Pakistan govt to squeeze the Taliban, as well as sending drones which are killing people (many of whom are innocent civilians) by people based thousands of miles away. What do you consider would be your reaction if your kids were bombed by a drone? Such a cold clinical faceless manoeuvre. We cannot know how far you can push people whose values and mindset we don't even understand.

So to place blame is not so simple.

I might get a deluge of furious reaction here, but I'm just trying to understand it myself.

Aye, Catholics murdering Protestants,then vice versa, both murdering those who wouldn't 'convert' etc but that was in the 'dark ages'
What bliddy excuse has those who have a religious 'conviction' in the present day access of general knowledge?

 

[coley]

Sorry Coley, and I don't really want to risk another derailment or whatever but there was an element of revenge in Dresden was the point.

Fair do's, resurrect/start another thread concerning that particular issue and we can take it from there?
Appreciate your concerns; re; derailment

 

[Humberto]

Its lazy to just blame religion. Drones and military incursions are the cold hard facts when you are on the receiving end.

 

[Humberto]

Fair do's, resurrect/start another thread concerning that particular issue and we can take it from there?
Appreciate your concerns; re; derailment

Start one if you like buddy, I'm doing well to concentrate on this one for now.

 

[coley]

Its lazy to just blame religion. Drones and military incursions are the cold hard facts when you are on the receiving end.

Agree, but it's late and the beechams max strength and booze are kicking in,TBC
Jeez, that comes across as utterly twattish when you think of those bairns lying dead and their families.
Sorry, doesn't even come close.

 

[FNG]

Astonishing timing:

Fury in India as Pakistan bails Mumbai terror 'mastermind'

L-e-T had heavy links with the ISI, I suspect that this is an attempt to try to "buy back" or persuade disaffected militants that the Deep State is still on their side,and the wake of Peshwar might have been considered a to borrow a phrase a good day to bury bad news.

Very bad news for India as even if the suspicion that the ISI will be trying to rechannel zealot energies overseas wasn't bad enough, the fact it took threats of military action to make pakistan move against the L-e-T in the first place will escalate fear and a sense of vulnerability.

 

[FNG]

statement delivered to Pakistan via official spokesman in the External Affairs Ministry Syed Akbaruddin

"Despite repeated assurances that have been received, we have seen both the prosecution of the seven accused in the Anti-Terror Court in Islamabad, as also the investigation by the authorities into the larger conspiracy surrounding the Mumbai attack case, proceeding at a glacial pace.

"The story of repeated postponements, adjournments and unavailability of concerned law officers or witnesses is well documented and does not require repetition. The move to grant bail to Zakiur Rahman Lakhvi yesterday has taken this saga to another level,"
"We have, therefore, forthwith communicated to Pakistan through diplomatic channels our strong concerns on this matter and the sentiments across the spectrum of Indian society that that this will make a mockery of Pakistan's commitment to fight terror groups without hesitation and without making distinctions,

 

[FNG]

Fucking hell, the lunatics want to push their country to a state of war with India to save their own skin

, "India, we will NOT forgive you for this atrocity! You chose the day of December 16th to rub it in. We stand firm, united & will crush you!"-Zahid Hamid former Minister of State

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...er-Peshawar-massacre/articleshow/45569310.cms

 

[krtek a houby]

What's your occupation? I'm guessing a traffic warden or similar toady.

So you don't see them as savages, either? Interesting.

 

[Pickman's model]

Didn't we bomb the fuck out of Dresden as revenge for Coventry?

no.

look at the chronology: coventry bombed 15/11/1940
dresden bombed 14/2/1945

only someone very stupid would say that something bombed in 1945 was revenge for something bombed in 1940.

can you fuck off now?

 

[Citizen66]

So you don't see them as savages, either? Interesting.

I can think of many words to describe them that doesn't include a synonym of primitive.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Now we can both understand the strategic/publicity attracting nature of this atrocity,but in fairness, you have to wonder at people who go beyond simple murder and go on to exercise a level of brutality and sadism well in excess of what's needed to extract revenge or to seek leverage?

Sadism presupposes that the perpetrators derived pleasure from their actions. They may have done, but I'm not going to assume that it's a given.
We should also both understand that in incidences like these (remember the Shankhill Butchers, and what they did to their victims?) the idea is to shock and horrify to the maximum degree possible. To disgust outsiders and to generate fear. To send a political message that says "fucking with us or annoying us will get this visited on you".

The various descriptions of the people involved can be watered down to a simple description (and your earlier suggestion helped, but needed a prefix)
Psychopathic zealots.
And in fairness, I don't think you can negotiate with people who fit that description.

Thing is, the negotiations aren't with them, they're with the men who direct them.

 

[Citizen66]

They're murderous Islamist bastards.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Who or what created this dynamic of destruction might be a good place to start. Where do 'we' go forward from this? That is everyone who wants to understand it and see an end to it. Are not western meddling and corporate greed involved? To just dismiss them as savages which was an often used term of British colonialism is going to get backs up. Also, how can they act so utterly without mercy to women and children? That is towards the nearest and dearest of their REAL enemies.

They can and do act like that because it sends a particular message.

Also I can't see this as primarily a religious motive. But that is another question perhaps.

This is about religion for the Taliban - it's about them propagating their version of Wahhabi - for them, anyone who isn't an adherent is an apostate, and their ruthless murder of Shias and their destruction of Sufi monuments, and of Sufis themselves if they refuse to recant their heresy, is illustrative of this.

So what was it? Revenge? As someone said earlier we don't really get the news of what happens to their children in the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan.

That assumes that they're from the tribal territories, rather than merely operating there. I'm not sure that's a safe assumption.

The US has put pressure on Pakistan govt to squeeze the Taliban, as well as sending drones which are killing people (many of whom are innocent civilians) by people based thousands of miles away. What do you consider would be your reaction if your kids were bombed by a drone? Such a cold clinical faceless manoeuvre. We cannot know how far you can push people whose values and mindset we don't even understand.

So to place blame is not so simple.

I might get a deluge of furious reaction here, but I'm just trying to understand it myself.

I believe we need to take into account that to many of the ethnic groups in the northwest of Pakistan and the east of Afghanistan "Afghani" and "Pakistani" are meaningless - they're Pashtun or Hazara or some other ethno-tribal grouping, first and foremost. Most of them are not Taliban, but they are sensitive to the Afghan and Pakistan armies invading what they see as their territory, and killing their friends and relatives, and to the US bombing them from the air on the off-chance of killing a Taliban staffer. This means antipathy and a willingness to throw a spanner in the works of the regional powers that the regional powers resent (regional powers who do, after all, understand the "values and mindset" of the tribal peoples), and in turn generates new problems besides the Taliban.

 

[krtek a houby]

I can think of many words to describe them that doesn't include a synonym of primitive.

How very noble of you. Here's more; animals. Scumbags. Filth. Pigs.

 

[coley]

How very noble of you. Here's more; animals. Scumbags. Filth. Pigs.

Feel better now?

 

[krtek a houby]

Feel better now?

Not really. But my knee has stopped jerking. I'm not happy that kids have been butchered by these dogs and people who voice their (admittedly impotent) rage are being taken to task over mere semantics.

 

[Citizen66]

It's not semantics. It's a word that could be construed as being racist when theres plenty of others to pick as you have just demonstrated.

 

[krtek a houby]

It's not semantics. It's a word that could be construed as being racist when theres plenty of others to pick as you have just demonstrated.

How on earth could it be construed as racist? Seriously, some murdering fucks shoot kids in the eyes and you're calling the disgust of millions around the world "racist"?

For the record; I see the UVF, IRA, the cops in the UK and US who shoot/strangle unarmed people as savages as well.

Stuff your racist accusations.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's not semantics. It's a word that could be construed as being racist when theres plenty of others to pick as you have just demonstrated.

krtek a houby doesn't know what semantics means. he thinks it a) covers this and b) sounds flash.

 

[krtek a houby]

krtek a houby doesn't know what semantics means. he thinks it a) covers this and b) sounds flash.

Covers what? Less of the weasel words, please.

 

[coley]

How on earth could it be construed as racist? Seriously, some murdering fucks shoot kids in the eyes and you're calling the disgust of millions around the world "racist"?

For the record; I see the UVF, IRA, the cops in the UK and US who shoot/strangle unarmed people as savages as well.

Stuff your racist accusations.

No, they are psychopaths who behave in a savage and barbarous fashion, know how you feel,but mebbes if we can get the pedantry out of the way this thread can get back on track?

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

no.

look at the chronology: coventry bombed 15/11/1940
dresden bombed 14/2/1945

only someone very stupid would say that something bombed in 1945 was revenge for something bombed in 1940.

can you fuck off now?

Understand this. I've not been abusive to you. I'm not going to start now. I'm not going to grass you up with the report button either, so I don't understand why you're sinking your teeth into me every so often like some bear with a sore head.

You've had massive barny on this thread with people, with a massive derail, so you've no right to be abusive to people on some kind of premise that they are somehow being "stupid" or not contributing to the thread in a positive way.

The main thrust of revenge is to make the enemy feel the same pain that they have inflicted, with a view to making them think twice or even stop doing what they are doing....be it carpet bombing your cities and/or killing your children.

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

How on earth could it be construed as racist? Seriously, some murdering fucks shoot kids in the eyes and you're calling the disgust of millions around the world "racist"?

For the record; I see the UVF, IRA, the cops in the UK and US who shoot/strangle unarmed people as savages as well.

Stuff your racist accusations.

No one has accused you of being racist. People have pointed out to you that calling them "savages" doesn't help. No judgements, honest guv!

 

[Pickman's model]

Spirit Of Slade
i'm very sorry, for some reason, most likely posting in between working, i confused you with another poster. i'll withdraw the 'will you fuck off now' bit

 

[hot air baboon]

...these medieval maniac fuck-ups need to get their story straight....aren't they supposed to "...love death as we love life..." or some such snappy catch-phrase...?

...but apparently they are now weeping over the plight of the children...er...yeah right...

PAKISTAN: Child suicide bombers “victims of the most brutal exploitation”

http://www.irinnews.org/report/76701/pakistan-child-suicide-bombers-victims-of-the-most-brutal-exploitation

Many of the bombers who blew themselves up were children, while teenagers who have been arrested provide chilling accounts of how they had been imbued into carrying out similar attacks.

“These young boys are as much the victims of terrorism as those they kill. They are victims of the most brutal exploitation,” said Anees Khan, a Lahore-based psychologist who is carrying out a study on the use of children as bombers for a local non-governmental organisation (NGO).

The manner in which teenagers have been used in suicide bombings has become evident in recent months.

In December 2007, an attack in Kohat that killed 11 army cadets was carried out by a bomber aged 16 or 17 who detonated explosives strapped to his body as he approached his targets.

In January, a boy of around the same age blew himself up at a mosque in Peshawar in a sectarian attack on worshippers gathered there.

But it is the manner in which these boys are indoctrinated that is most revealing.

Just a few weeks earlier, Aitezaz Shah, 15, detained in the northern town of Dera Ismail Khan, told investigators how he had been recruited by extremists after dropping out of school in Karachi in May last year.

He said he had been assigned to act as a “back-up” bomber in the assassination of Benazir Bhutto, the chairperson of Pakistan’s populist People’s Party, who was killed in a suicide bombing on 27 December.

Aitezaz had been trained at a `madrassah’ in the tribal area of South Waziristan and was preparing to carry out other attacks.

“We are still conducting interrogations and investigations in this matter,” said Pakistan Interior Ministry spokesman Brig Iqbal Cheema.

A year ago another 15-year-old Pakistani suicide bomber, Hainullah, trained in Waziristan, was arrested in neighbouring Afghanistan where he had been sent to carry out an attack on US troops there.

He said he was offered a “way out of a life of boredom” at a seminary in the area by a preacher who offered him visions of paradise, where rivers of milk and honey flowed, in exchange for giving up his life by becoming a suicide bomber.

A few months later, in a case that made headlines, a 14-year-old would-be bomber, Rafiqullah, was pardoned by Afghan President Hamid Karzai and sent back to Pakistan after being arrested wearing a “suicide vest” packed with explosives.

...you can explicate whatever "context" you like but this is pure unadulterated evil....


http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/01/suicide-vest-girl-pakistan-boy/356846/

Afghanistan was stunned this week by the story of a 10-year-old girl known only as Spozhmai, who told police that her brother, a local Taliban commander, gave her a suicide vest and ordered to attack a police station. Police intervened after she resisted the plan and her brother escaped with the vest.

Even more shocking is that the girl says she was told that the vest would only kill her targets, but that she would survive the explosion. She talked about it with reporters below:

The tactic is one commonly used by terrorists to convince children to participate in attacks. In a 2012 report on child suicide bombers published by the Telegraph, author Ben Farmer explains that extremists value children, who are less likely to raise suspicion or be searched at checkpoints, and tell young recruits that their religious convictions will protect them during attacks...