Taking on the currency cranks

[littlebabyjesus]

Eh? Its £90 loan for £100 deposit with a 10% reserve.

yes, then £81 for 90 deposit when that 90 loan is deposited in the bank. etc.

Although Keen and others would contend that this isn't really how things work at all.

 

[free spirit]

This proves ld's point.

that's a low burden of proof your applying, which is pretty typical for this thread.

So all companies are as bad as each other because one co-operative decided to outsource its cleaning contract at one store to another company that wasn't a co-op, and that none co-op company then decided to fuck over it's staff.

An annual profits based bonus equivalent to 14% of salary must be standard across the entire retail sector then if all companies are the same....

 

[Blagsta]

that's a low burden of proof your applying, which is pretty typical for this thread.

So all companies are as bad as each other because one co-operative decided to outsource its cleaning contract at one store to another company that wasn't a co-op, and that none co-op company then decided to fuck over it's staff.

An annual profits based bonus equivalent to 14% of salary must be standard across the entire retail sector then if all companies are the same....

Why do you think John Lewis outsourced?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Why do you think John Lewis outsourced?

I'm sure they outsource all kinds of things. Nobody here is arguing that jl is some kind of saintly entity. The original point was that it is better to work for jl than tesco because jl is a form of cooperative while tesco is shareholder-owned. That this change in company ownership itself represents a change in capitalist relations, and that, if repeated, it would result in a better deal for workers. So the argument put forward by ld that cooperatives don't make any difference because they don't change the underlying capitalist relations is wrong, imo. Dead wrong. That the few coops that do exist now are far from ideal organisations existing as they do within the current system is not surprising and not in dispute.

 

[Blagsta]

I'm sure they outsource all kinds of things. Nobody here is arguing that jl is some kind of saintly entity. The original point was that it is better to work for jl than tesco because jl is a form of cooperative while tesco is shareholder-owned. That this change in company ownership itself represents a change in capitalist relations, and that, if repeated, it would result in a better deal for workers. So the argument put forward by ld that cooperatives don't make any difference because they don't change the underlying capitalist relations is wrong, imo. Dead wrong. That the few coops that do exist now are far from ideal organisations existing as they do within the current system is not surprising and not in dispute.

I don't know if it is better or not. What is the difference?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't know if it is better or not. What is the difference?

Pay and conditions.

 

[Blagsta]

Pay and conditions.

In what way?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In what way?

Higher pay and better working conditions. Although not, clearly, for the workers for the outsourced companies. Something if I worked for jl that I would be bringing up.

 

[Blagsta]

Higher pay and better working conditions. Although not, clearly, for the workers for the outsourced companies. Something if I worked for jl that I would be bringing up.

What does JL pay compared to Tesco? What's the difference in sick pay and annual leave?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What does JL pay compared to Tesco? What's the difference in sick pay and annual leave?

Pay rates are similar, except that jl employees get an annual bonus that is rarely less than 10 percent and can be as much as 30 percent. They also have a non-contributory final salary pension scheme, and get many different side-bonuses.

Here's a rather gushing article, but it contains concrete facts too.

And this is interesting (and not so surprising) - cut out the parasitic shareholding class and companies do better:

he point, though, is how this different way of thinking and feeling about work translates. John Lewis, we've seen, does more than all right. Employee-owned companies currently contribute some £25bn to the British economy. According to an annual index compiled by a leading law firm, they outperform the FTSE by roughly 10% each year. Research by the Cass Business School indicates that employee-owned businesses also create jobs faster; are significantly more resilient in an economic downturn; deliver far better customer satisfaction; boast substantially higher value added per employee; and, depending on the sector and size of the business, can deliver markedly higher profits (co-owned businesses seem to work best when they've got fewer than 75 staff and operate in knowledge- or skill-intensive sectors).

As I said, I'm not trying to act as a fanboy for jl. But the claim that they're no different from shareholder-owned companies is patent nonsense.

 

[Blagsta]

and sick leave and holidays?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

and sick leave and holidays?

Look it up yourself. Did you see the bit about the bonus and the pension. And also the bit about how I wasn't claiming that they are an ideal company?

 

[Jazzz]

​

Staff at the John Lewis store at Westfield, Stratford, celebrate this year's bonus. Photograph: Stefan Rousseau/PA​

John Lewis staff saw their traditional annual bonus fall on Wednesday after profits at the retailer were knocked by the economic downturn last year.​

Staff at the department stores and Waitrose supermarkets will share £165.2m, to receive a bonus of 14% of salary. That is down from the18% enjoyed by the staff who co-own the retail group last year.​

Guardian

enough questions I think blagsta until you have a go at your own research.

​

​

 

[Blagsta]

Look it up yourself. Did you see the bit about the bonus and the pension. And also the bit about how I wasn't claiming that they are an ideal company?

I'm not the one claiming that JL is better than Tescos. I have no idea if it is or not! You make a claim, you back it up.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm not the one claiming that JL is better than Tescos. I have no idea if it is or not! You make a claim, you back it up.

I just did! ffs. You read my Steve Keen links yet?

 

[Blagsta]

I just did! ffs. You read my Steve Keen links yet?

No you didn't.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No you didn't.

Right So they don't get an annual bonus or a final salary pension or subsidised holidays or generous discounts, or any of the other things in the link I posted that you couldn't be arsed to look at?

You're being a complete dick.

 

[Blagsta]

Right So they don't get an annual bonus or a final salary pension or subsidised holidays or generous discounts, or any of the other things in the link I posted that you couldn't be arsed to look at?

You're being a complete dick.

You're claiming that conditions were better yet refuse to back your statement up, instead you chuck out insults.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I haven't refused to back it up.

You're completely mystifying me now.

But here you go, I'll totally spoonfeed you:

Benefits at John Lewis Partnership
Pension:
A non-contributory defined benefit (DB) plan for all staff after three years’ service.
Healthcare and wellbeing:
Dental insurance (voluntary benefit).
Eyecare (voluntary benefit).
Private medical insurance for senior employees.
Bikes for work.
Group risk:
After five years’ service, every employee accrues up to six months’ full sick pay.
Death-in-service benefit of three-times annual salary.
Cars:
Car ownership scheme for senior staff.
Bonus and shares:
Partnership bonus giving all staff a share of profits from the previous business year.
Share incentive plan allows staff to invest all or part of their bonus tax and national insurance free, if held for five years.
Staff discounts:
After three months, all staff get a 15% discount at Waitrose and 25% discount on most items in John Lewis stores.
Holiday
22 days plus bank holidays, increasing to six weeks after three years’ service. Managers and staff with 10 years’ service get 30 days plus bank holidays.
Work-life balance:
All employees may request flexible working arrangements.
Six-month sabbatical after 25 years.
Carer’s leave.
Childcare vouchers.
Leisure:
Clubs and societies such as sailing, drama, music and photography.
Concert and theatre ticket subsidies and discounted cinema tickets.

Now you go and find me the equivalent for Tesco. And remember that the above applies to every employee except where stated otherwise, so I don't want a Tesco executive's pay. Just a shop floor worker, please.

 

[free spirit]

I'm not the one claiming that JL is better than Tescos. I have no idea if it is or not! You make a claim, you back it up.

you're the one questioning the statements that they are though. perhaps you could tell us what percentage of profits or pay tesco staff receive each year?

I concur with LBJ btw, you are being a bit of a dick.

actually, I've done the work for you.

Tesco paid out £110 million in staff bonuses last year, or 10% of profits, between 500,000 staff, or £220 each.

John Lewis paid out £165 million in staff bonuses last year, or 46% of profit between 51,000 FTE staff, or £3235 average per FTE staff member.

Now if you don't see there's a difference between £3k / 46% of profits a year and £220 or 10% of profits a year....

http://www.tescoplc.com/index.asp?pageid=17&newsid=632
http://www.johnlewispartnership.co....rtnership_annual_report_and_accounts_2012.pdf

 

[Blagsta]

I'm asking someone to back up their statements. Apparently that's being a dick. If you say so.

 

[Blagsta]

I haven't refused to back it up.

You're completely mystifying me now.

But here you go, I'll totally spoonfeed you:




Now you go and find me the equivalent for Tesco. And remember that the above applies to every employee except where stated otherwise, so I don't want a Tesco executive's pay. Just a shop floor worker, please.

You're the one comparing to Tesco! As I already said, I don't know who is the better employer. You may well be right. I'm just asking for evidence. Apparently this is being a dick.

 

[free spirit]

I'm asking someone to back up their statements. Apparently that's being a dick. If you say so.

he'd backed up his position, you carried on demanding that he continue backing up his position, aka acting like a dick.

anyway, now you've been presented with evidence, are you still of the same opinion you were on the last page?

 

[Blagsta]

he'd backed up his position, you carried on demanding that he continue backing up his position, aka acting like a dick.

anyway, now you've been presented with evidence, are you still of the same opinion you were on the last page?

You'll note I didn't express an opinion. I just asked for clarification.

[edit]

I expressed an opinion about JL and the economic pressures for them to outsource their cleaning. I haven't seen anything to make me alter that opinion.

Why do you think they outsourced? You haven't answered that, unless I missed it?

 

[free spirit]

You'll note I didn't express an opinion. I just asked for clarification.

what's this then?

This proves ld's point.

looks like an opinion to me.

 

[Blagsta]

see my edit

 

[free spirit]

Why do you think they outsourced? You haven't answered that, unless I missed it?

Any number of reasons, and it's certainly not something I'm going to waste my time investigating - if you can be arsed then feel free to find out and report back though.

Are they generally better as a company than other none co-ops in the same business is the important point here, not whether they're whiter than white in everything they ever do at all their branches.

 

[free spirit]

I believe I've got a question pending as well...

 

[Blagsta]

Any number of reasons, and it's certainly not something I'm going to waste my time investigating - if you can be arsed then feel free to find out and report back though.

Are they generally better as a company than other none co-ops in the same business is the important point here, not whether they're whiter than white in everything they ever do at all their branches.

The general point was that they will be subject to the same economic pressures as other businesses. I think the outsourcing backs this up.

 

[free spirit]

The general point was that they will be subject to the same economic pressures as other businesses. I think the outsourcing backs this up.

ok, maybe to areas of the business that aren't part of the co-op, but within the co-op there will be no shareholder pressure to increase profits by driving down staff wages and conditions because the shareholders are the staff.

I'd think most union types would think that a situation where there was no shareholder pressure to drive down pay and conditions for staff, and where nearly 50% of the company's profits are distributed to staff, was a situation to be championed where it existed and worked towards in other companies.