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How does logic get to be bourgeois? What conditions are necessary, or sufficient, that it becomes so?
 
i badly recall a case someone made for a 'marxist/dialectical' logic, which could handle contradiction! it made no sense to me.
 
Ah, I'd never really thought that the necessity test for being a dialectical marxist was belief in contradictory logic, but now you come to mention it.... :)
 
cockneyrebel said:
Calum where is anyone saying that you supporting England is "a sign of my proto-social patriotic degeneracy"......but I get the sense from Nigel's posts that the fact that a lot of SP members support England (same goes for WP as it goes) is a sign of a working class organisation. I know that's not what he says, but it's the tone of his posts. It's totally patronising to suggest that working class people will think it's nuts to discuss the link between national sport and nationalism/patriotism/racism.

As it goes there are huge problems in football with racism, and it's no co-incidence that only 1% of premiership fans are from ethnic minorities. I also think there is often a cross over between nationalism and racism/xenophobia when it comes to national teams (as said the cricket test thing is a good example, as is the bollox you get in the media). And it's the exclusivity of nationalism and the overlap it often has with racism that makes most black and Asian people I know feel uncomfortable about the whole St Georges flag bollox you get around national footballing events. Now I don't think they're all paranoid with a chip on their shoulder, I think there is a reason they feel that way. And it's that kind of thing, combined with the whole anthem singing, flag waving shit that put me off supporting England.


The following puts forward a quite different view and one based on actual interviews with the predominently Pakistani Asian population in Bradford in the post riot period rather than the 'Inglan is a bitch' perspective above.


Our interviews in 2002 coincided with England playing in the World Cup. Although the city had been divided during the riots, in the face of football, it was interesting to see how sport erased those divisions. In the roads of Bradford St George's flags were flying from windows of bedrooms, corner shops and from taxis. The feeling of patriotism was almost palpable, in particular among both the female and male young respondents. In these circumstances, then, as others have noted in relation to the 1998 World Cup (Kumar, 2003: 262-3) the St George’s flag represented a multi-ethnic Britain, whereas the Union Jack is associated with colonialism and White racism.
Many writers on the subject of citizenship take it to mean participation in the nation state (Kymlicka, 1995), in this context we can see cultural participation in a wider yet ethnically diverse ‘cultural nation’. These Pakistani respondents just like other British citizens displayed pride in their nation by flying the ‘English’ St George’s flag. The flag became a prominent symbol of unity which was expressive of their desire for England to win the world cup:
We live in this country why shouldn’t we support England? At the end of the day whether you support England in a sport or not is no big deal but this is our Country and we are going to care about it and we are going to care how it is doing in world economy and everything…,this our home at the end of the day, yeah we are living here but you tend to support your home Country. I don’t see that there is anything wrong with that. (Shabnam Ishaq, age 21)

I was talking to some colleagues at work the other day about when Lord Tebbitt said failing the cricket test. I was saying I hope people know that they have passed the football test because there are so many taxi drivers, businesses even young people flying St. George’s flag. I think there is a difference between St. George’s flag and the Union Jack because with the Union Jack you think of the BNP and racists. (Khalid Hussain, age 30)

Discussions around national symbols such as flags in this way generated discussions on allegiance and identification. The Union Jack was not seen as a patriotic symbol of the British nation instead it has meaning for a far right party. The views of our younger respondents were that the Union Jack has become the property of the far right and a symbol of the political beliefs of the BNP. The Union Jack was not displayed in Bradford more so because of the political meaning behind the Union Jack. Ordinary people can no longer display the flag without being labelled right wing racists. Displaying the St George's Flag was more expressive of an ‘authentic’ national identity that has not been politically soiled by racism, the Union Jack is no longer representative of the whole nation, only a minority of extremists.
Those who were born in Britain celebrate a positive image of their Britishness. It is almost as if the younger generation have reclaimed their citizenship as a positive identity of citizenship in the wake of racism. These individuals create a concept of England, which is not in a vacuum but a developed and inclusive identity that encapsulates diversity:
… there were young Pakistani lads with St. George’s Flag and middle aged Pakistani taxi drivers, and that really made me laugh and it showed that the Pakistani community are saying that they are not just Pakistani. They are trying to show that England means something to them and that England is our team. We are from England. But if you say they are only English if they sit down and have roast beef and roast potatoes then it is not going to happen. (Khalid Hussain, age 30)

Citizenship, Ethnicity and Identity: British Pakistanis after the 2001 'riots'.

Yasmin Hussain and Paul Bagguley
 
Pickman's model said:
i don't think you quite understand what a premiership team is.



Course he does-MC5 was a steward for his favourite club at least fifteen years before stewards were even thought of....

Fought off Man City toddlers armed with knitting needles single handed,he did.

Ho hum.
 
LLETSA said:
Course he does-MC5 was a steward for his favourite club at least fifteen years before stewards were even thought of....

Fought off Man City toddlers armed with knitting needles single handed,he did.

Ho hum.

You 'Guvner's' are a right bunch of fibbers. :p

441116241854.jpg
 
Pickman's model said:
why are man city sponsored by thomas cook?

perhaps it would make sense if man city were in europe...

I thought they were (in a geographical sense like).
 
Pickman's model said:
why are man city sponsored by thomas cook?

perhaps it would make sense if man city were in europe...

Maybe a garment knitting manufacturer would be more appropriate?
 
Man City fans can always stay at home and watch the footballing war film "Escape to victory", with ex City footballer Mike Summerbee making his acting debut. His one and only appearance in a film.
 
MC5 said:
Man City fans can always stay at home and watch the footballing war film "Escape to victory", with ex City footballer Mike Summerbee making his acting debut. His one and only appearance in a film.
so thomas cook don't have much to offer city fans.
 
Pickman's model said:
so thomas cook don't have much to offer city fans.

They do a good rate on foreign currency and travellers cheques, which City fans can hand in now they no longer need them.
 
There's nothing like an overheard conversation on football between two people who have no interest in-and consequently no knowledge of- the game and its traditions.
 
LLETSA said:
There's nothing like an overheard conversation on football between two people who have no interest in-and consequently no knowledge of- the game and its traditions.

You're a brave man. LLETSA, your final question, who won the Cup Final in 1949?
 
Funnily enough just to link cockneys 'blacks don't like going to England games' and MC5s 'Guvnors' , who did I see interviewed on tele during the World Cup in France as an England fan in Marseille but Donald Francis brother of Mickey Francis , the author of Guvnors. Donald is of course black , supports England , Man City and Lancashire Cricket club .
 
Chuck Wilson said:
Funnily enough just to link cockneys 'blacks don't like going to England games' and MC5s 'Guvnors' , who did I see interviewed on tele during the World Cup in France as an England fan in Marseille but Donald Francis brother of Mickey Francis , the author of Guvnors. Donald is of course black , supports England , Man City and Lancashire Cricket club .



On the subject of that Guvnors book, wasn't it mostly this that planted the idea of an organised mob calling themselves The Guvnors in the public mind?

Back in the mid-to-late eighties, nobody ever referred to The Guvnors until a series of arrests of leading City hooligans took place and the media latched onto the idea that these were the infamous Guvnors. While most of those I knew who followed City knew about The Young Guvnors, these were mostly Stanley-wielding teenagers. (They obviously never came up against MC5 and his intrepid team of veteran stewards.) The main City firm at the time was known as the Mainline Service Crew. After the arrests and jailings, people increasingly came to talk about The Guvnors, so maybe, having been almost willed into being, there was a group that actually adopted the name. Or, as I said, maybe it was just Francis's book that has been responsible for the 'legend.'

That's how I remember it anyway, although I'm not a close follower of the scene. Personally, it's always seemed a bit fucking daft to me, working class lads taking out their aggression on each other.
 
LLETSA said:
On the subject of that Guvnors book, wasn't it mostly this that planted the idea of an organised mob calling themselves The Guvnors in the public mind?

Back in the mid-to-late eighties, nobody ever referred to The Guvnors until a series of arrests of leading City hooligans took place and the media latched onto the idea that these were the infamous Guvnors. While most of those I knew who followed City knew about The Young Guvnors, these were mostly Stanley-wielding teenagers. (They obviously never came up against MC5 and his intrepid team of veteran stewards.) The main City firm at the time was known as the Mainline Service Crew. After the arrests and jailings, people increasingly came to talk about The Guvnors, so maybe, having been almost willed into being, there was a group that actually adopted the name. Or, as I said, maybe it was just Francis's book that has been responsible for the 'legend.'

That's how I remember it anyway, although I'm not a close follower of the scene. Personally, it's always seemed a bit fucking daft to me, working class lads taking out their aggression on each other.


At the time, a number of football firms were infiltrated by the police who, some have argued, were acting as 'agent provocateurs'. There were some arrests, and amongst those arrested was, strangely enough, someone who was a purporting to be a member of the WRP.

I managed to interview someone who was in the public gallery about one of the trials. His initial response to my questioning was 'are you from the fucking Sun'? :eek: To which I replied, 'no, er, an alternative paper'. :D I asked if we could go somewhere we could talk better? We could, but waiting for him outside was his pet dog, a Staffordshire Bull Terrier. :eek: He believed that it was all a set-up. The 'undercover' police had 'slept overnight on people's floors', some other things, but it's a long time ago.
 
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