SUVs make up more than 40% of new cars sold in the UK – while fully electric vehicles account for less than 2%

[SpookyFrank]

Good luck on banning cars.

Aren't you just adorable?

Also, by helping me complete a line on my Fuckwit Bingo card, you've just won me a vintage breville cheese toastie maker.

 

[Tones]

Aren't you just adorable?

Also, by helping me complete a line on my Fuckwit Bingo card, you've just won me a vintage breville cheese toastie maker.

I wouldn't trust you to operate it.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

You certainly seem more than ok with continuing the motoring status quo, despite the associated clear and obvious health risks.

Page Rendering Error

OECD's dissemination platform for all published content - books, podcasts, serials and statistics

www.oecd-ilibrary.org

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/07/09/tire-brake-tailpipes-emissions-pollution-cars/

Really different reading. I read they lived in a part of the country with woeful public transport and drove a tiny car?

 

[editor]

No. I never suggested that. But your keenness to attribute bad faith to me is too tiresome for me to continue with this. Good luck on banning cars.

Except literally no one is demanding that all cars be banned.

 

[xenon]

people should cut down on air travel. Oh no you mean no one should ever go on holiday again? That’s kind of the same argument.
Don’t do anything unless it’s a perfect solution. The world obviously does not work like that. Anyway it changes happening. It would be great if we all had clean fuel personal transport pods to get us where we want when we want. In the meantime who is against improving public transport. And clean it up where possible. That’s right, no one. Here.

 

[editor]

And here's the damage caused by cars and vans:

Pollution from cars and vans costs £6billion per year in health damages | University of Oxford

A new Oxford University collaboration has shed light on the damaging health consequences of Britain’s car addiction – revealing that it is likely costing our NHS and society in general more than £6 billion per year.

www.ox.ac.uk

Does air pollution kill 40,000 people each year in the UK?:

Winton Centre Cambridge

Winton Centre for Risk and Evidence Communication

wintoncentre.maths.cam.ac.uk

 

[Pickman's model]

And here's the damage caused by cars and vans:

Pollution from cars and vans costs £6billion per year in health damages | University of Oxford

A new Oxford University collaboration has shed light on the damaging health consequences of Britain’s car addiction – revealing that it is likely costing our NHS and society in general more than £6 billion per year.

www.ox.ac.uk

Does air pollution kill 40,000 people each year in the UK?:

Winton Centre Cambridge

Winton Centre for Risk and Evidence Communication

wintoncentre.maths.cam.ac.uk

I wonder how much pollution is caused by people who can't drive ordering deliveries by courier

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I wonder how much pollution is caused by people who can't drive ordering deliveries by courier

Still more efficient to combine multiple deliveries. But yes. A good few of them.

 

[editor]

And here's yet more reasons why car use has to be reduced

 

[editor]

Still more efficient to combine multiple deliveries. But yes. A good few of them.

The courier deliveries to my block usually come courtesy of the driver dragging a huge bag stuffed full of parcels for the various flats on all floors so I imagine they're saving a vast amount of individual journeys.

 

[stavros]

I'm not minimising particulate pollution. But they're orders of magnitude apart. One might claim some lives, but the other is an existential threat to humanity.

You're right. However there are policies and behaviour changes that can be enacted which address both simultaneously, such as those that result in fewer car miles being driven.

 

[Elpenor]

It's all those tyres on the tube trains.

Some rapid transit metro systems have tyres as I learned this weekend in Marseille

Rubber-tyred metro - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[SpookyFrank]

Some rapid transit metro systems have tyres as I learned this weekend in Marseille

Rubber-tyred metro - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

They've got them in Lausanne as well.

 

[maomao]

Except literally no one is demanding that all cars be banned.

I am.

 

[Hollis]

Had an SUV pull out in front of me this evening from a side road... clearly hadn't bothered to check the road for traffic. Lucky I wasn't further advanced at the crossing or they'd have gone straight into the side of me.

Was thinking can't help in these situations that the vehicles now resemble armoured cars adding to the drivers sense of invicibility.. and then googled this..

"SUVs are a paradox: while many people buy them to feel safer, they are statistically less safe than regular cars, both for those inside and those outside the vehicle. A person is 11% more likely to die in a crash inside an SUV than a regular saloon. Studies show they lull drivers into a false sense of security, encouraging them to take greater risks. "

'A deadly problem': should we ban SUVs from our cities?.

 

[krtek a houby]

Good luck on banning cars.

Yeah but

There comes a time that some things have to stop no matter how 'traditional' they are.

 

[platinumsage]

Had an SUV pull out in front of me this evening from a side road... clearly hadn't bothered to check the road for traffic. Lucky I wasn't further advanced at the crossing or they'd have gone straight into the side of me.

Was thinking can't help in these situations that the vehicles now resemble armoured cars adding to the drivers sense of invicibility.. and then googled this..

"SUVs are a paradox: while many people buy them to feel safer, they are statistically less safe than regular cars, both for those inside and those outside the vehicle. A person is 11% more likely to die in a crash inside an SUV than a regular saloon. Studies show they lull drivers into a false sense of security, encouraging them to take greater risks. "

'A deadly problem': should we ban SUVs from our cities?.

That's more nonsense from the Guardian, as I detailed the last two times it was posted in this thread. The study quoted is American and over twenty years old, so both the safety standards and the changing construction of SUVs mean it utterly irrelevant to the current debate in the UK.

 

[Tones]

Yeah but

You appreciate that people have more of a need to get around than they do to set animals on fire? That's why any proposals to force them from their cars without alternatives they consider acceptable will be massively unpopular, and so politically unviable.

 

[Hollis]

That's more nonsense from the Guardian, as I detailed the last two times it was posted 9n this thread. The study quoted is American and over twenty years old, so both the safety standards and the changing construction of SUVs mean it utterly irrelevant to the current debate in the UK.

It still doesn't negate my point about whether SUV drivers have more risk-taking behaviours because they feel more protected. I wonder if you were driving a mini you'd be so prone to charge out in the middle of a road without looking. Perhaps not.

 

[platinumsage]

It still doesn't negate my point about whether SUV drivers have more risk-taking behaviours because they feel more protected. I wonder if you were driving a mini you'd be so prone to charge out in the middle of a road without looking. Perhaps not.

The same aguement has been applied to seatbelts and motorcycle helmets, so I'm not sure it's a particularly valid one.

 

[kebabking]

It still doesn't negate my point about whether SUV drivers have more risk-taking behaviours because they feel more protected. I wonder if you were driving a mini you'd be so prone to charge out in the middle of a road without looking. Perhaps not.

Difficult one to know - I think the feeling of being physically higher has an impact on the perception of vehicle speed, but I'm not convinced about the perception of risk per se.

I see really bad driving on a regular basis - whether that's the archetypal SUV on the school run, the old dear in the Honda Jazz who drives at 8mph on a 40 mph road, constantly breaking but with no lights on in the pissing rain, to the twat in the dropped BMW from about 1987.

I wonder if the bad driving on the SUV is simply more noticeable because of the size of it, and our own prejudices against the drivers...

 

[Rob Ray]

You appreciate that people have more of a need to get around than they do to set animals on fire? That's why any proposals to force them from their cars without alternatives they consider acceptable will be massively unpopular, and so politically unviable.

The idea that doing something massively unpopular is an instant "can't be done" is a fallacy. All it actually requires is consensus across the two main parties. Eg.:

Planned changes to pensions triple lock divide Tory MPs

Some Conservatives insist policy is ‘sacrosanct’, while others are pushing for it to be overhauled

www.theguardian.com

Which is seeing the Tories talking seriously about cutting the State pension (no doubt phased in so existing old people get theirs while Millennials down get fucked, again - solving intergenerational unfairness my arse) that is, in theory, the most sacrosanct part of their electoral coalition offerings.

And in fact you can see the same phenomenon across many of the policy slates the two parties are putting forward. Neither one is prepared to do the popular thing with water, rail or energy and nationalise, despite clear public support for this. The key is in what is felt to be necessary by the powers that be.

 

[Tones]

The idea that doing something massively unpopular is an instant "can't be done" is a fallacy. All it actually requires is consensus across the two main parties. Eg.:

Planned changes to pensions triple lock divide Tory MPs

Some Conservatives insist policy is ‘sacrosanct’, while others are pushing for it to be overhauled

www.theguardian.com

Which is seeing the Tories talking seriously about cutting the State pension (no doubt phased in so existing old people get theirs while Millennials down get fucked, again - solving intergenerational unfairness my arse) that is, in theory, the most sacrosanct part of their electoral coalition offerings.

And in fact you can see the same phenomenon across many of the policy slates the two parties are putting forward. Neither one is prepared to do the popular thing with water, rail or energy and nationalise, despite clear public support for this. The key is in what is felt to be necessary by the powers that be.

Maybe. But we're a long way from any such consensus. With little ideological or self- interest (the two principal drivers of politicians' actions) driving them towards one.

 

[Chz]

It still doesn't negate my point about whether SUV drivers have more risk-taking behaviours because they feel more protected. I wonder if you were driving a mini you'd be so prone to charge out in the middle of a road without looking. Perhaps not.

It's been found that with advances in occupant protection being so widely publicised, all drivers have been that bit more aggressive.
Though there was always a certain amount of satisfaction when some tit in an oversized SUV (yes, they're not all oversized) decided to argue with a tram when I lived in Toronto. (Toronto never lost its trams, so they still run on-street like in the 1890s) Yeah buddy, that Ford Canyonero or whatever is going to win the argument with the 60-ton streetcar. Never saw a slant in the local news that wasn't "you deserved that". We're talking mid-city, so not enough speed to kill 99% of the time. Just a mangled heap of light truck to pull off the road and a quick dust-off for the streetcar. (There was once a proper tragedy when a coach driver tried his luck, so there was a lot of sympathy for the injured passengers at least)

 

[editor]

That's more nonsense from the Guardian, as I detailed the last two times it was posted in this thread. The study quoted is American and over twenty years old, so both the safety standards and the changing construction of SUVs mean it utterly irrelevant to the current debate in the UK.

Let's look at some recent, non Guardian studies:

Sports utility vehicles (SUVs) now account for over half of all new-car sales in the UK as drivers buy them for their sporty look, spacious interiors and the extra sense of security and safety they offer.

But there is growing evidence to suggest that SUVs are statistically less safe than regular cars and potentially dangerous to drivers and passengers because of the increased risk of rollover in the event of a road traffic accident.

Latest Legal Articles - Case Studies - News | Simpson Millar Solicitors

Helpful articles and information on legal issues that may be affecting you, along with our latest case studies, news and media.

www.novumlaw.com

A recent study from the US has found that children are eight times more likely to be killed in a collision involving an SUV or pick-up truck than they are in a crash in which a standard passenger car is involved.

Published in the Journal of Safety Research(link is external), the study comes at a time when such vehicles are getting increasingly large, and as SUVs make up an increasingly large proportion of new cars sold especially in affluent urban areas.

Many are bough by parents, with SUVs being seen – and widely promoted – as the perfect vehicle for families with children, but researchers from the University of Illinois in Springfield have established that they are posing an increasing danger to kids, or at least those on the outside of the vehicle.

SUVs 'eight times more dangerous' to kids walking or cycling than smaller cars are

US study found SUVs were involved in much fewer crashes than standard cars – but in twice as many fatal ones

road.cc

Two behavioural and consequential studies support that car size affects risk taking in driving and that this increase in risk taking generalizes to other domains as well. Based on these results and in line with literature showing that social stability and security can affect financial risk taking, we propose the “car cushion hypothesis.” This hypothesis suggests that bigger cars make people feel more secure, which affects their behaviour in terms of generalized risk taking.

The Car Cushion Hypothesis: Bigger Cars Lead to More Risk Taking—Evidence from Behavioural Data - Journal of Consumer Policy

Car traffic and accidents involving cars create an enormous societal cost, particularly in terms of negative consequences for public health. Mitigating these effects is a daily concern for public and private institutions and people around the world. At least a subset of accidents is attributable...

link.springer.com

Vehicle type (passenger car versus SUV) is a much more important predictor of death thancrash safety ratings in SUV versus passenger car head-on crashes.

https://scholarlycommons.hcahealthcare.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1181&context=hcahealthcarejournal

 

[platinumsage]

Let's look at some recent, non Guardian studies:

Latest Legal Articles - Case Studies - News | Simpson Millar Solicitors

Helpful articles and information on legal issues that may be affecting you, along with our latest case studies, news and media.

www.novumlaw.com

SUVs 'eight times more dangerous' to kids walking or cycling than smaller cars are

US study found SUVs were involved in much fewer crashes than standard cars – but in twice as many fatal ones

road.cc

The Car Cushion Hypothesis: Bigger Cars Lead to More Risk Taking—Evidence from Behavioural Data - Journal of Consumer Policy

Car traffic and accidents involving cars create an enormous societal cost, particularly in terms of negative consequences for public health. Mitigating these effects is a daily concern for public and private institutions and people around the world. At least a subset of accidents is attributable...

link.springer.com

https://scholarlycommons.hcahealthcare.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1181&context=hcahealthcarejournal

Yeah we’ve done this before. Those are all from the US where SUVs are very different compared to the UK, as are roads, and traffic laws, and driving behaviour. I’ve also debunked the rollover stuff in a previous reply to you, as propensity to roll over is largely determined these days by the quality of stability software.

And if you’d read those papers you posted you’d notice that they used data from.g. 1995 to 2010 and include pickup trucks with SUVs

 

[editor]

Yeah we’ve done this before. Those are all from the US where SUVs are very different compared to the UK, as are roads, and traffic laws, and driving behaviour. I’ve also debunked the rollover stuff in a previous reply to you, as propensity to roll over is largely determined these days by the quality of stability software.

And if you’d read those papers you posted you’d notice that they used data from.g. 1995 to 2010 and include pickup trucks with SUVs

In case you missed it, SUVs make up over half of all car sales in the UK and road vehicles continue to grow in size. Most of the research comes from the US because that's where these ridiculously vehicles became popular.

Here's the kind of thing we should be doing:

Governments are indeed acting. Paris, the city hall has announced plans to dissuade SUV drivers from entering the city using punitive parking charges, albeit with exceptions for electric cars. Officials in Lyon have already announced plans to tax cars by weight from next year, and Grenoble is expected to follow suit. In Washington DC, proposals have been made to charge owners of vehicles over about 2.7 tonnes an annual surcharge of $500 (£390), with smaller penalties for less egregiously oversized trucks. The normal fee is $72 (£56).

How dangerous, unnecessary SUVs took over our streets

Huge, heavy, expensive and more polluting than regular cars, 'sports utility vehicles' are becoming one of Britain’s greatest social problems - but there are alternatives, writes Ed Wiseman

inews.co.uk

In 2019, there were nearly 1 million SUVs registered in the UK, up from 200,000 in 2010.

More than 40% of annual car sales in the UK today are SUVs, compared with less than 20% a decade ago.

Calls to ban SUVs from built-up areas grow after school horror left girl dead

Researchers have claimed that children are eight times more likely to die if they are hit by an SUV compared to a normal passenger car

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Rob Ray]

Arguing we don't need to worry about US studies because we're not quite where they are yet is like arguing we don't need to worry about a tsunami because it's still a few miles away. It's fucking stupid and you know it. Not least because it's been pointed out to you before. Unless you're so blind as to be a danger on the road you will have seen the same evidence as everyone else that the size of vehicles is rising and the big SUVs are increasingly common.

 

[platinumsage]

Arguing we don't need to worry about US studies because we're not quite where they are yet is like arguing we don't need to worry about a tsunami because it's still a few miles away. It's fucking stupid and you know it. Not least because it's been pointed out to you before.

Nope, it’s not “because we're not quite where they are yet” it’s because we’ll never be where they were 20 years ago.

Perhaps before carrying on this nonsense you’d like to have a go at defining “SUV”.

 

[Rob Ray]

Nope, it’s not “because we're not quite where they are yet” it’s because we’ll never be where they were 20 years ago.

What really fucks me off about you is how dishonest you are when you do this shit. You know perfectly well that there's a problem. You know what people are talking about when they highlight it. But we have to go through this farce over and over again. What is this, the fifth time you've tried to reset the conversation back to the beginning so it all has to be redone? It's so fucking boring.