SUVs make up more than 40% of new cars sold in the UK – while fully electric vehicles account for less than 2%

[Chz]

Largely due to EU emissions regs for vehicle engines.

For example a Euro I bus from 1992 onwards had a limit of 0.6 g/kWh particulates, a Euro 5 bus produced after 2005 had limit of 0.02 g/kWh.

The difference in Oxford, where the coach station is right in the middle of the place, is astounding. I moved to the UK in 2002 and thought Oxford was filthy compared to Toronto, but it's so, so much better now.

 

[pbsmooth]

sounds like us Londoners have evolved for it not to be a problem, while it's outsiders with weaker noses who suffer from the affliction. maybe we should be thinking about making areas outside London more polluted so they can cope better when travelling?

 

[kebabking]

It's interesting sometimes hearing from people who haven't been to London for a few years. I was speaking to someone last week who was here for the first time in 20 years and said the difference was huge. Cleaner and just much more pleasant all round to be in. Living here, you tend not to notice the gradual change.

As you know I try not to speak well of London, but the difference was - I think - night and day.

I lived/worked in central London in 2000 - it was simply honking: black snot, dry throat, grey eye bogies, just feeling dirty and exhausted. I've been back and forth since then, but I was staying and working in London for a week in the last year, and it was a revelation.

I got off the M25 at 9am on a Monday morning, and drove about 2 mile's to the place I was staying - I genuinely wondered if I'd turned up on the Sunday by mistake. Quiet as the grave.

Hyde park corner was a bit spicy, but that was the only time I thought 'fucking hell, where are all these cunts going..?' The rest of the time/place was great, much quieter, much cleaner - I could even see huge numbers of stars at night...

PT was it's normal efficient self, didn't touch the car till I left - sadly that just showed up how crap it is at home. Even allowing for the 20-odd minute walk to a road with white lines down the middle, it's 3.5 hours to get to work solely on PT, a journey that I do in 50 minutes in the car. Trains are fine (2 required, for a total of an hour), but buses are shit, they don't go to the train station, they're one an hour, and they don't start till 7.40, and at the other end they don't go from the train station to within 15 minutes walk of one of Gloucester's largest employers.

 

[stavros]

Particulate pollution isn't a priority, given the existential threat of climate change. We need to get people out of petrol powered cars. That's only going to happen with carrots, not sticks.

With respect particulates are a priority, but not one that trumps climate change. Addressing each can complement the other, so let's not create a false choice between the two.

Let's also remember that fewer car journeys or any sort implies greater use of active modes and public transport, which in turn improves physical activity, not to mention social interaction.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Let's also remember that fewer car journeys or any sort implies greater use of active modes and public transport, which in turn improves physical activity, not to mention social interaction.

Or the sanity of letting those who can WFH do so and continue to roll it out, rather then try and push people back to offices.

 

[xenon]

Yeah, there was a huge amount of nostalgia from some quarters for the old Routemasters when they were decommissioned. I don't miss them one bit. They were cramped and dirty.

Much easier to bunk the fare though.

 

[newme]

With respect particulates are a priority, but not one that trumps climate change. Addressing each can complement the other, so let's not create a false choice between the two.

Let's also remember that fewer car journeys or any sort implies greater use of active modes and public transport, which in turn improves physical activity, not to mention social interaction.

Is there any solution to tyre bits flying off?

 

[editor]

Is there any solution to tyre bits flying off?

One really obvious solution is to make cars much, much lighter, but the the SUV fans won't like that as it would infringe on their right to needlessly pollute wherever they like.

Almost 2,000 times more particle pollution is produced by tyre wear than is pumped out of the exhausts of modern cars, tests have shown.

The tyre particles pollute air, water and soil and contain a wide range of toxic organic compounds, including known carcinogens, the analysts say, suggesting tyre pollution could rapidly become a major issue for regulators.


Air pollution causes millions of early deaths a year globally. The requirement for better filters has meant particle emissions from tailpipes in developed countries are now much lower in new cars, with those in Europe far below the legal limit.

However, the increasing weight of cars means more particles are being thrown off by tyres as they wear on the road.

The average weight of all cars has been increasing. But there has been particular debate over whether battery electric vehicles (BEVs), which are heavier than conventional cars and can have greater wheel torque, may lead to more tyre particles being produced.

Car tyres produce vastly more particle pollution than exhausts, tests show

Toxic particles from tyre wear almost 2,000 times worse than from exhausts as weight of cars increases

www.theguardian.com

 

[newme]

One really obvious solution is to make cars much, much lighter, but the the SUV fans won't like that as it would infringe on their right to needlessly pollute wherever they like.

Car tyres produce vastly more particle pollution than exhausts, tests show

Toxic particles from tyre wear almost 2,000 times worse than from exhausts as weight of cars increases

www.theguardian.com

Aren't electric cars much heavier too even when not SUV? I meant like tyre tech.

 

[editor]

Aren't electric cars much heavier too even when not SUV? I meant like tyre tech.

Yes but electric SUVs are even heavier again. People just switching to big electric cars is no solution at all. In fact it may be worse in some areas (tyre particle pollution, use of rare metals etc).

 

[newme]

Yes but electric SUVs are even heavier again. People just switching to big electric cars is no solution at all. In fact it may be worse in some areas (tyre particle pollution, use of rare metals etc).

You seem to be saying this like I am encouraging SUVs.

 

[Tones]

With respect particulates are a priority, but not one that trumps climate change. Addressing each can complement the other, so let's not create a false choice between the two.

Let's also remember that fewer car journeys or any sort implies greater use of active modes and public transport, which in turn improves physical activity, not to mention social interaction.

I'm not minimising particulate pollution. But they're orders of magnitude apart. One might claim some lives, but the other is an existential threat to humanity.

 

[editor]

You seem to be saying this like I am encouraging SUVs.

You certainly seem more than ok with continuing the motoring status quo, despite the associated clear and obvious health risks.

Non-exhaust particle emissions from road traffic consist of airborne particulate matter (PM) generated by the wearing down of brakes, clutches, tyres and road surfaces, as well as by the suspension of road dust. A growing body of evidence shows that PM emissions have significant implications for human health.

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www.oecd-ilibrary.org

For decades, scientists and health officials have warned drivers of the harmful pollutants coming from tailpipes. But as car exhaust systems have become cleaner, pollution linked to heart and lung disease has increased from a different source: tires and brakes.
In fact, wear and tear on tires and brakes have been shown to produce increasingly more particle pollution, by mass, than car exhaust systems did in several real-world and test scenarios. Some of the particles are large enough to see with our eyes. Others are fine particles (known as PM 2.5, with diameters up to 2.5 microns) and ultrafine particles (known as PM 0.1, with diameters of 100 nanometers), which can enter through our bloodstream and harm our organs.


Scientists say the issue will only grow worse as more cars, including heavier electric cars that put more strain on tires, are put on the road. Unlike car tailpipe emissions, brake and tire emissions are not regulated, which suggests the pollution may continue unchecked for the foreseeable future.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/07/09/tire-brake-tailpipes-emissions-pollution-cars/

 

[Tones]

You certainly seem more than ok with continuing the motoring status quo, despite the associated clear and obvious health risks.

Page Rendering Error

OECD's dissemination platform for all published content - books, podcasts, serials and statistics

www.oecd-ilibrary.org

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/07/09/tire-brake-tailpipes-emissions-pollution-cars/

PM pollution is many times worse on the underground than on London's roads, but, presumably, you're not telling people to avoid using the tube?

 

[SpookyFrank]

One might claim some lives, but the other is an existential threat to humanity.

This is the kind of bullshit you get if you start from a conclusion, 'me wantee drive big vroom vroom', and then bend reality into knots to try and support it. Trouble is you've bent your own brain into knots along with it so you can't see that you're obviously talking shit.

 

[Tones]

This is the kind of bullshit you get if you start from a conclusion, 'me wantee drive big vroom vroom', and then bend reality into knots to try and support it. Trouble is you've bent your own brain into knots along with it so you can't see that you're obviously talking shit.

What? I don't drive. But even an imbecile can see that one is bad, and the other is catastrophic.

 

[xenon]

PM pollution is many times worse on the underground than on London's roads, but, presumably, you're not telling people to avoid using the tube?

You are thick or totally disingenuous. If you can’t see the difference between mass-transit solutions and individual ones.

 

[xenon]

I thought you felt the air was cleaner in your car but you don’t drive?

 

[Tones]

You are thick or totally disingenuous. If you can’t see the difference between mass-transit solutions and individual ones.

Of course I can. But it remains the fact that pm pollution underground is much worse than aboveground.

 

[editor]

PM pollution is many times worse on the underground than on London's roads, but, presumably, you're not telling people to avoid using the tube?

Are you just being wilfully stupid now? Posted a few hours ago:

For Green, this is key. “It is much better that people get on the London Underground than it is for them to get in their car to move around London. That’s because if you're sitting in your car, you're exposed to very high concentrations of vehicle pollutants.

"You’re sitting directly behind the exhaust of the car [in front], so you have a higher exposure than cyclists riding along the road or the pedestrians walking past. And the other thing is you're also polluting the world for everybody else. So, while the car isn’t worse than the tube in the case of PM2.5, it is much worse for other pollutants like nitrous oxides.”

 

[xenon]

If you’ve ever been on the tube or got an Uber you have no right to comment about pollution. Okay. That’s thelevel it seems. fucking clowns.

 

[Tones]

I thought you felt the air was cleaner in your car but you don’t drive?

I don't feel it about my car, because I don't have a car. But the pm pollution in cars on London's streets is less than on its underground.

 

[xenon]

Of course I can. But it remains the fact that pm pollution underground is much worse than aboveground.

So your solution is what exactly? Don’t do anything because something else is worse. Even though that is contested.

 

[Tones]

Are you just being wilfully stupid now? Posted a few hours ago:

Yes, but I was taking about pm pollution in particular (because it was what you highlighted).

 

[xenon]

I don't feel it about my car, because I don't have a car. But the pm pollution in cars on London's streets is less than on its underground.

Got a source for that? I mean accounted for time spent on said transport modes of living adjacent to polluted roads? I get the tube when I have to. You don’t have the choice to live next to a polluted road.

 

[SpookyFrank]

It's all those tyres on the tube trains.

 

[Tones]

So your solution is what exactly? Don’t do anything because something else is worse. Even though that is contested.

No. I never suggested that. But your keenness to attribute bad faith to me is too tiresome for me to continue with this. Good luck on banning cars.

 

[Tones]

Got a source for that? I mean accounted for time spent on said transport modes of living adjacent to polluted roads? I get the tube when I have to. You don’t have the choice to live next to a polluted road.

Yes, I posted it upthread.

 

[Tones]

It's all those tyres on the tube trains.

 

[xenon]

No. I never suggested that. But your keenness to attribute bad faith to me is too tiresome for me to continue with this. Good luck on banning cars.

Likewise. I’m not calling for Cars to be banned. But there should be penalties for driving the most polluting and damaging of them. Externalities. It’s just basic economics. There ain’t no carrots for any of us in this game.