Support the French Rioters!

[tobyjug]

how'd you know? doesn't say about the sort of gun &c in the article you linked to

I have not linked to an article.
The cartridge cases have been shown on several TV news bulletins.

 

[tobyjug]

toby how many toes do you have?

The usual 6 per foot.

 

[tobyjug]

what type did they use?

The vast majority of 12 bore cartridges have shot sizes 5,6,or 9 in them. (9 shot is used for clay pigeon shooting).
The case shown on TV was had a higher loading of explosive in it, (a third of the case was brass) and the pellets picked out of one of the police officers shot was of a much larger size than the majority.
To put this in perspective a clay shooter can use several thousand cartridges a year, a wildfowler who would use the heavy duty cartridges fired at the police might well use less than 25 cartridges.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

the thing to remember is, there is no such thing as a perfect anarchist riot - there will always be problems, there will always be nasty stuff going on - are we going to wait for the perfect insurrection before we get our hands dirty?

But it isn't an anarchist riot - at all. Not even a bit of a one. It's just anarchy - I take with a pinch of salt what the French police are saying about organised rioting through mobile phones and the internet.

Mainly agree with Icepick and *cough* Revol68, although reading this thread (and corresponding links) has made me think twice about it all.

Agree that the underlying social problems are to blame, and agree that there will be a political return in more investment from the state in those areas. But I don't see this spontaneous riot as positive political act just because there is violence - sounds to me like the politics of desperation from our Urbanite supporters.

 

[blamblam]

But it isn't an anarchist riot - at all. Not even a bit of a one. It's just anarchy - I take with a pinch of salt what the French police are saying about organised rioting through mobile phones and the internet.

Mainly agree with Icepick and *cough* Revol68, although reading this thread (and corresponding links) has made me think twice about it all.

Agree that the underlying social problems are to blame, and agree that there will be a political return in more investment from the state in those areas. But I don't see this spontaneous riot as positive political act just because there is violence - sounds to me like the politics of desperation from our Urbanite supporters.

Yeah, I'll post more tomorrow, but the main thing I'm worried about is that the far right in France are going to do really well out of this. I'd also worry measures the government might take (political correctness, positive discrimination, uk-style multiculturalism etc.) in response might also make things worse in the long-term. Race relations in France are pretty fucked as it is, and cheering this along without thinking about it seems a bit silly (akin to Attica's cheering for the The Battle of The Coronet, but much worse). Unfortunately I also think it'll take time for the positive (for us) lessons from the actual rioting and the spread of it to become apparent, cos we'll mostly hear the negatives.

In summary - I think the CW statement is terrible, and you really shouldn't put it out at all.

Oh and I'll definitely chip in to send Monty over there!

 

[Pickman's model]

no concerns about the *short-term* state repression, then? the interviews with people on the french estates who've said that nothing else they've tried has been listened to *entirely* passed you by?

just the long-term stuff implications worrying you before the fires have stopped burning?

if this were happening on this side of the channel, or on the other side of the world, i imagine that a lot of people would have an entirely different attitude towards the events in france. as it is, when some of the most oppressed people in france take matters into their own hands following years of repression suddenly *they're* the ones in the wrong - that's certainly the message i'm getting from some people here who i would have hoped would adopt a different attitude to the situation.

what is it with some people? it's "hurrah!" for the gate gourmet workers and for comparatively insignificant incidents here, and raspberries for people who've had enough taking on the state not 300 miles away. i dunno, to me it seems that some so-called anarchists and socialists have their heads on the wrong way these days.

 

[888]

Icepick - link on demonstrators being mugged please.

 

[BAKU9]

no concerns about the *short-term* state repression, then? the interviews with people on the french estates who've said that nothing else they've tried has been listened to *entirely* passed you by?

just the long-term stuff implications worrying you before the fires have stopped burning?

if this were happening on this side of the channel, or on the other side of the world, i imagine that a lot of people would have an entirely different attitude towards the events in france. as it is, when some of the most oppressed people in france take matters into their own hands following years of repression suddenly *they're* the ones in the wrong - that's certainly the message i'm getting from some people here who i would have hoped would adopt a different attitude to the situation.

what is it with some people? it's "hurrah!" for the gate gourmet workers and for comparatively insignificant incidents here, and raspberries for people who've had enough taking on the state not 300 miles away. i dunno, to me it seems that some so-called anarchists and socialists have their heads on the wrong way these days.

Fucking right!

Reading this thread I'd expect the usual crap from Revol68 in his internet time nappy antics, but the attitude of others on here is bloody shocking, and pathetic.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

if this were happening on this side of the channel, or on the other side of the world, i imagine that a lot of people would have an entirely different attitude towards the events in france. as it is, when some of the most oppressed people in france take matters into their own hands following years of repression suddenly *they're* the ones in the wrong - that's certainly the message i'm getting from some people here who i would have hoped would adopt a different attitude to the situation.

what is it with some people? it's "hurrah!" for the gate gourmet workers and for comparatively insignificant incidents here, and raspberries for people who've had enough taking on the state not 300 miles away. i dunno, to me it seems that some so-called anarchists and socialists have their heads on the wrong way these days.

Away from some sort of blind black and white world, is it not possible to neither support nor condemn the rioters? Your accusation that failure to support the rioters makes you ideologicaly unsound is a crock of shit.

I don't really know enough abouts that facts about what has been happening on the ground (at least I admit it). Or maybe it's because I've been reading the wrong books... cause fuck knows where some people on this thread get their politics from.

 

[Pickman's model]

Icepick - link on demonstrators being mugged please.

couldn't find anything on google...

 

[Pickman's model]

Away from some sort of blind black and white world, is it not possible to neither support nor condemn the rioters? Your accusation that failure to support the rioters makes you ideologicaly unsound is a crock of shit.

I don't really know enough abouts that facts about what has been happening on the ground (at least I admit it). Or maybe it's because I've been reading the wrong books... cause fuck knows where some people on this thread get their politics from.

i wasn't thinking of you when i submitted my post - but if you think i should have...

why do you think the rioters are in the wrong?

 

[Taxamo Welf]

they aren't.

Should we 'support the rioters' then? Not necc.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

i wasn't thinking of you when i submitted my post - but if you think i should have...
why do you think the rioters are in the wrong?

But that wasn't the question though was it... the demand being made is that we should support the rioters. While I recognise the injustices both on a mirco (police brutality) and macro (capitalism, blah, blah)... I ain't getting exciting about these riots, just as I never got excited about the riots in Bradford (did anybody here???) a few years ago. They are a symptom of a sick society - the 'cure' to which could easily be the FN. This shouldn't be celebrated as a way forward, all seems pretty nihlistic to me - maybe that's what people here want.

I dunno, maybe I'm being too responsible in my politics, But think of the children!

 

[Taxamo Welf]

when do we know if its the 13th night yet? did it finish last night? Obvious questions with surprisingly hard answers.

 

[darren redparty]

There is a terrible lot of liberal wank in this thread- u can expect it from leninists- 'One can't support these riots -wheres their program?'
or 'they'll have to wait patiently for the rrrevolutionary leadership to arrive.'
but some of those calling themselves anarchists should be ashamed.
The young people in these riots are fighting back against the whole oppressive weight of the french state with whatever weapons that they can lay their hands on- they should be supported without question.
The 2 kids whose deaths sparked the riots were running from the cops- If youn r a arab or african kid picked up by the pigs sans papiers, then if you are lucky you get away with a beating and hours at the station being interrogated.
If you are unlucky, then the next thing you know you wake up in Algiers.


edited for abysmal spelling

 

[tobyjug]

they should be supported without question.

Much as I sympathise with their plight, pissing off ordinary citizens by burning their cars I cannot support. Target the people who can cure the problem, the government.

 

[The Black Hand]

Don't know about you monty, but I don't "support" the working class. When our class does things which advance our collective interests, that's good. When we fight amongst ourselves, that's bad. Examples of the latter would be things like sectarian violence in NI, race riot in Birmingham, football hooliganism. Obviously in France now there are elements of both. "Supporting" them all is fucking ridiculous, as is supporting the actions of all "working class" people just cos they happen to be working class (Fred West?). Is that what you do, monte? Support all working class people, all the time, no matter what they do?

Just to say we are right to participate in the zeitgeist of the riots, the spread does have big overtures of '81 when the British Precatariat first raised its head Do those who worry about compromising their political integrity intend to tell other rioters that on the front line, 'oh, if you do something ideologically unsound I/we will withdraw and stop fighting' (sounds suspiciously like treachery to me). The old saying that 'he who is without sin throws the first stone' is a good moral plane for an anarchist (seriously). I did ideologically unsound stuff when I was younger in a working class subculture, its what people do, and yes it does mean taking sides but more importantly MAKING sides. We have to participate otherwise nothing will change.

Oh, and by the way, violence will exist after the revolution Icepick, you'd better get used to it. Karate and Kung fu are not going to go away, they predate capitalism you know.

 

[General Ludd]

The young people in these riots are fighting back against the whole oppressive weight of the french state with whatever weapons that they can lay their hands on- they should be supported without question.

How is burning the cars of working class people 'fighting back'? In what sense is it a weapon against the French state?

As it happens I don't really think 'are the riots good' is a useful question, what I think matters jack shit and we'll learn nothing useful about our lives from contemplating it. What the long-term affects of the riots will be is an interesting question though, the response of the state will (hopefully) be informative about the state's future attitutes to multiculturalism and integration.

 

[JHE]

The old saying that 'he who is without sin throws the first stone' is a good moral plane for an anarchist (seriously).

And he who is without sense or decency is the first to throw petrol bombs at schools and hospitals.

L'hôpital brûlé - la spécialité de la maison!

 

[tobyjug]

the response of the state will (hopefully) be informative about the state's future attitutes to multiculturalism and integration.

Thus far judging by comments today stopping any further immigration appears to be the plan.

 

[Ryazan]

nothing wrong with burning the right cars, mind...

even tho' it isn't a solution...

Depends if the cars are of serious use to the owners. Like someone who needs a car to get to work.

 

[Stobart Stopper]

Depends if the cars are of serious use to the owners. Like someone who needs a car to get to work.

or belong to someone who is disabled.
Or needs it in an emergency to attend to a sick relative.

 

[Ryazan]

Aye.

 

[Stobart Stopper]

While car burning looks a bit edgy and glamorous to anarkid types, very often it's the working class owner who suffers. The very people they are supposed to be supporting. You won't see any flash Jags or Mercs being torched, oh no, they are all in gated communities or underground car parks.
The cars being done over have been worked for, cost money to run.......very often money that is in very short supply.

 

[Ryazan]

I agree- although I sympathise with the frustration bursting out among the young in these places, the effects are damaging to working class people with the kind of scenarios you have illustrated. It is easy to romanticise from afar isn't it.

 

[rednblack]

i don't see that this is going to lead to an automatic upswing in favour of the far-right - france has a long and proud history of political violence - far greater than ours, french people arent going to be as horrified or shocked as people here would...

targeting working class people's cars etc is stupid - but what do you expect? they are not class struggle anarchists they are people who have had enough and are showing their anger and fighting back against the police and the state. as for burning down community facilities, so what? they were in a shit state anyway - they will get re built better than before, that is a fact...

 

[Ryazan]

And what do these already isolated and shat upon people use in the meantime then, when the facilities they need have been wrecked?

I didn't understand your comment about class struggle anarchism.

 

[rednblack]

apologies for the long c+p but it's a translation of a french language article that someone did for the libcom boards and i dont know how to link to individual posts...

I did a trans of the article you asked for, its a bit rough and ready so no bitching from french speakers out there.
Faced with the consequences of the death by electrocution of to adolescents in an EDF powers station when they were trying to "escape from the police" the youths of Clichy-cous bois (parisian banlieue) accuse the forces of order of having fanned the flames by deliberately provoking and even of firing above them with rubber bullets. Afrik has recovered a video illustrating the police violence and has collected mutiple witness statements during a meeting on sunday between the mayor and the youths.
In the picture, a policeman in civilian clothes firing on a youth.
Sunday, 3 o'clock at the town hall in Clichy-sous-bois. The mayor organised an informal meeting with young people all extremely angered
by the attitude of the police the previous day. The previous day the town had organised a silent march as a tribute to the two boys. Ziad and Banou, burnt alive last thursday in an EDF power station whilst being chase by the police. But if, after two days of rioting, the tension has lowered a notch, the young people accuse the police of inciting and sustaining hatred of the uniform but repeated provocation, abuse of authority and gratuitous repression.
"All the available forces in a position to calm the situation have done a tremendous amount of work. The march went off peacefully, but in the evening the CRS began to push aroung the youths, to provoke them." admitted a member of the mayor's staff, more than 150 youths, mostly of African origin (Black and North African.) came to hear the mayor. He reminded them that the costs of the damage would be paid by the town, by the taxpayer. He advocates a solution mediated between the people of the town and seems to put the police factor to one side. Everyone expressed themselves freely.
In the crowd, people spoke openly. Small groups formed here and there to discuss the previous day's events. Everyone denounced the abuses and provocations commited by the police. Many were witnesses of violent attacks or had themselves been the targets "They (the police) were fired up, they provoked us more. The brother of one of the dead boys was with us, as usual, at the bottom of his block when the police arrived, with their flashballs (rifle firing rubber bullets) and started to look us up and down, ending up by saying 'go back home to your mother.' He took three steps towards the cops to talk to them, one of the two cops said to him: 'stop or I'll set you on fire" We ran away to the 10th floor, They started firing gas bombs into the hall" explained Jeremy,sickened by it.
The families' mothers insulted when leaving the mosque.
"They all talk shit, especially the journalists, fumed Youcef, looking at a TV crew, surrounded by youths, taking pictures and statements. Straaight away they started to dirty the reputations of the victims while the prosecutor in Bobigny has admitted today that the youths had had no previous brushes with the law. The media wants us all to be thugs, when its the police who provoke young people so that they can have a pretext to beat them or shoot at them.
"We were coming out of the mosque, the police surrounded us, Flash balls in their fists. They separated us, but what shocked us more was that they targetted the mothers coming out from prayers and began to insult them: "Get out of here you bunch of whores, and keep a better eye on your kids" explains Morad, full of restrained anger. If he doesn't seem the type to advocate confrontation with the forces of order, not everyone has so much self control.
Forces of order or of disorder?
The tension is palpable. Three police cars are stationed within 50M of the town hall. One of the policemen has hs flash ball in his hand and his finger on the trigger. The police take this for yet another provocation. Tempers flare a little. Two people begin to call on the crowd to attack the police "Come on, there are more of us, we can all go together and beat the shit out of them." one of them yells. Luckily people preferring dialogue and calm are more numerous. They come and break up the lines of youths opposite the police cars.
"They provoke us too much, I've got friends who were shot at, just like that, for nothing, with plastic bullets. All that can do is lead to more violence. Everyone is angry. Now, if it has to kick off then it will. I'm not scared of them and their weapons. We'll get to the stage where we'll get ourselves weapons. It will be like America here predicts Jonathan.
The police completely supported by Nicolas Sarkozy
The two versions of the events in Clichy-sous-bois conflict, over whether the police were or were not chasing the boys, who were returning from a football match: that of the police and that o the young people in the area. The problem is that there are witnesses. One of the chased youths explains that he hid when the three ran into the power station. In addition to this testimony, some question the police version of events. "Why were some other youths arrested if they weren't chasing them, since everyone had run away?" ask some. "Why did these kids decide to climb a three metre wall with barbed wire on it?" ask others. Questions that the police sweep away casually.
The minster of the interior Nicolas Sarkozy has himself declared, on sunday at 8 on TF1,that according to all his information "the police were not chasing the boys" If he heard "tell the truth to everyone" he still managed to pay "tribute to the remarkable work of our policemen" and to "congratulate" them for other arrests. A criminalising way of speaking that feeds, in the eyes of many people, a dangerous mixture- the belief that all those arrested were criminals- and supports the police acting with impunity.
A damning video for the forces of order.
Nicolas Sarkozy repeated again that he intends to continue a "zero tolerance" policy against urban violence. Criticisng the local police, he talks of the need for many more arrests. Claiming that the "good kids" will have nothing to fear from the police. The security presence, made up of more than 400 CRS, gendarmes and police officers were beginning to put the town under tight control.
The police, supported by the minister of the interior, does it have a right to do anything? A video, filmed on a mobile phone, is circulating in the area. A document entitles "Sarkozy's new cops" which has been supplied to Afrik and a part of which can be seen online. You see a police car stopped with its door opened, it looks lke a policeman is hit by a projectile. The response is immediate. You can clearly see policemen in civillian clothes firing several times, twice almost immediately, with their flash balls. You can see them running after the youth shouting " come back you bastards!"
"Some of the rubber bullets have even been signed, explains Kader. There was a boy who found one with "boom boom in your arse, see you soon, Luc" written on it. The rupture between the youths and the police seems definitive. Between the talk of the politicians, who support the actions of the police, and the media accused of travestying and editing reality, The mistrust and anger feeds feelings of hatred which could unfortunately lead to the worst.

 

[Zonk]

Here is the clip that goes with that piece http://www.afrik.com/IMG/mov/Keufs_1.mov

 

[lostexpectation]

pen is mightier then the sword

And he who is without sense or decency is the first to throw petrol bombs at schools and hospitals.

And he who is without sense or decency is the first to underfund them?