Support the French Rioters!

[montevideo]

okay you daft fuck you do realise that we've had working class youth rioting for fucking decades in Northern Ireland, more often than not it's been of a reactionary nature, but it all has got at it's base disaffection, alienation and a degree of righteous anger, even if directed poorly.

I'm glad to see that in France it hasn't been racist but it has involved a great deal of reactionary behaviour that does nothing for the working class, it has also involved alot of actions I have no problem supporting.

Just because working class people are rioting doesn't mean it isn't mostly other working class people suffering.

I mean it is groups of mainly young men who are involved in the violence, burning down a nursery doesn't really affect them but it does effect a single mother.

Class War are a fucking joke!

so there are 'good' working class people & 'bad' working class people? And it is you, from your elevated position (in your bedroom), who gets to decide not only the criteria but their method of behaviour?

I suspect with all this talk of The Working Class (an abstract concept sanitised to suit a political conceit) you actually dislike working class people & their irrational, unmediated & anti-social behaviour.

You can almost hear the shudder of disgust: this isn't my class.

 

[revol68]

so there are 'good' working class people & 'bad' working class people? And it is you, from your elevated position (in your bedroom), who gets to decide not only the criteria but their method of behaviour?

I suspect with all this talk of The Working Class (an abstract concept sanitised to suit a political conceit) you actually dislike working class people & their irrational, unmediated & anti-social behaviour.

You can almost hear the shudder of disgust: this isn't my class.

oh right because i recognise that there are some reactionary tendencies within the riots i've become some sort of fucking Fabian?

I love how you can sweep over all the little fractures that exist within the working class. How many single mothers do you think are on thsoe estates shitting themselves, what about the working class kids who have had their nursery burnt down?

There is clearly contradcition within the riots, some people have been attacking the police whilst others seem to have decided to attack nurseries and even a hospital. These are the actions of a brutalised youth, they are not something to be revelled in you middle class posing fuck!

I'm not screaming hang'em high what i'm sayng is that trying to raise the rioters up into the "working class" or "class in itself" is just retarded, especially when we look at how some of their actions only serve to further fragment the class.

And just how many estates have you lived on montevideo?

 

[sihhi]

Just because working class people are rioting doesn't mean it isn't mostly other working class people suffering.

Under present economic circumstances just about every instance of property destruction will damage working class people in some way- in the short term.
Just as a call for all out- will damage working-class revenues in the short term for long term gain.
Some have said that with a slowly established pattern in the industrial world since the 1960s of new redvelopement money being targetted in areas that have experienced rioting the best way of getting new better buildings, more money etc is to burn buildings ones down.

I think we need more information. Why were particular nurseries targetted but not others? Not all areas have burnt out public buses. Some banks have been targetted but not lots of them. We need more detailed information to analyse targets and who did what why and under what circumstances. A burnt out bus being used as a barricade was what I saw last night on a TV set- but I don't know the circumstances behind it.

 

[fanta]

Over 300 French towns and cities have now seen riots against the police and the government. More will follow.

Youth in cities as far as Brussels and Berlin have shown their support - it is time we did the same.

As the French state prepares for curfews and an even bigger crack down against working class support, we say loud and clear "Support the rioters".

Make your voice heard at the French embasssy in London at 3pm on Thursday 10th November. The address:

French Embassy in the United Kingdom
58 Knightsbridge,
LONDON SW1X 7JT

Fuck yeah, let's burn down a nursery and kill a 60 year old man!























You immature wanker.

 

[revol68]

Under present economic circumstances just about every instance of property destruction will damage working class people in some way- in the short term.
Just as a call for all out- will damage working-class revenues in the short term for long term gain.
Some have said that with a slowly established pattern in the industrial world since the 1960s of new redvelopement money being targetted in areas that have experienced rioting the best way of getting new better buildings, more money etc is to burn buildings ones down.

I think we need more information. Why were particular nurseries targetted but not others? Not all areas have burnt out public buses. Some banks have been targetted but not lots of them. We need more detailed information to analyse targets and who did what why and under what circumstances. A burnt out bus being used as a barricade was what I saw last night on a TV set- but I don't know the circumstances behind it.

yes the reason i think it's so sporadic is cause it is just some kids letting off some of their anti social instincts.

I mean I remember breaking windows for a laugh when I was younger and in a similar situation to that in France I'm sure I would have done bigger shit. But it's not something that I would expect solidarity for.

The interesting thing is how this will tie into the wider class, will it lead to further marginilisation? or will there be a link up in struggles?

 

[General Ludd]

so there are 'good' working class people & 'bad' working class people? And it is you, from your elevated position (in your bedroom), who gets to decide not only the criteria but their method of behaviour?

Are the working class French inhabitants of the suburds who've argued against the riots guilty of the same thing?

so there are 'good' working class people & 'bad' working class people?

Yes. I've met plenty of absolute cunts who are working class, the fuckers who've burgaled my last 2 houses included. What kind of absurb relativism precludes any opinion on the actions of others?

 

[Random]

oh great, back to a nice safe abstract discussion of 'what is working class'.

Thanks, guys

 

[revol68]

Are the working class French inhabitants of the suburds who've argued against the riots guilty of the same thing?

Yes. I've met plenty of absolute cunts who are working class, the fuckers who've burgaled my last 2 houses included. What kind of absurb relativism precludes any opinion on the actions of others?

easy, a middle class fuckwit whose never actually had to deal with anti social wee fuckers or had the good sense to realsie their own anti social tendencies as what they are and grow the fuck up.

 

[Isambard]

Obviously it isn't just the trots who fight amongst themselves!

Seriously when something big happens the ruling class and are going to try and demonise the rioters / strikers / protestors / whatever.

The mainstream media will play up the fact that a nursery got burned to try and remove the genuine casues of the rioting (police brutality, racism, unemployment etc) from view.

We shouldn't play their game.

Ask yourself the question, "which side are you on?"

 

[revol68]

oh great, back to a nice safe abstract discussion of 'what is working class'.

Thanks, guys

well it was always goin to go there considering some people seem to think that a working class person taking a shit requires immdiate solidarity. Of course only a middle class patronising wanker thinks the working class require constant pats on the fucking back, and it takes an even more patronising fuck wit to assume that every working class person has immediate solidarity with the actions of another, even if it involves nicking your car or pissing through your letter box.

 

[rednblack]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/...europe_paris_riot_suburb_residents/html/2.stm

 

[revol68]

Obvious it isn't just the trots who fight amongst themselves!

When something big happens the ruling class and are going to try and demonise the rioters / strikers / protestors / whatever.

The mainstream media will play up the fact that a nursery got burned to try and remove the genuine casues of the rioting (polic brutality, racism, unemployment etc) from view.

We shouldn't play their game.

Ask yourself the question, "which side are you on?"

I know which side im fucking on, but it doesn't mean i have to put the blinkers on a fetishise these riots. I support those people fighting with the police and if i was there im sure i'd hardly be a fucking angel. But really what fucking use does it do us to overlook the shortcomings of such riots?

Only a middle class fucker whose never had to deal with the actual reality of anti social problems in working class areas is granted the previlege of pointing to the greater violence of capital to excuse doing something about issues affecting the working class.

 

[flimsier]

Someone said

"how many organisations have you joined now anyway?"

I wonder how many rednblack has joined?

 

[sihhi]

yes the reason i think it's so sporadic is cause it is just some kids letting off some of their anti social instincts.

I mean I remember breaking windows for a laugh when I was younger and in a similar situation to that in France I'm sure I would have done bigger shit. But it's not something that I would expect solidarity for.

The interesting thing is how this will tie into the wider class, will it lead to further marginilisation? or will there be a link up in struggles?

I think "marginalisation"- as in division along "communautaire" lines ispossible.

I've been reading with my self-taught French from Paris Indymedia that proper "les fafs" or "les fachos"- the FN and MNR are ready to re-group and force the issues- especially in the white banlieus of Toulouse, Marseille and Strasbourg.

The right-wing of the UMP currently in power and the eurosceptics at MPF will also make a play of it I'd imagine.

 

[Random]

Only a middle class fucker whose never had to deal with the actual reality of anti social problems in working class areas is granted the previlege of pointing to the greater violence of capital to excuse doing something about issues affecting the working class.

Actually, a French anarcho statement used pretty much exactly that phrase:

"It is not the "youth" who are violent, but society itself. The media, the
politicians, the pundits all say that we have to give young people
structure. But what kind of structure? That of money and competition (and,
thus, exclusion), the structure of might makes right?

These young people, they are our neighbours, our children, our sisters and
our brothers. They are right to rebel, to refuse to continue to take it
silently. Sure we can always discuss the methods, but we must not forget how the police manipulate and provoke things! "

AIT
c/o AAAFA
BP 5 75860 PARIS Cedex 18
FRANCE

http://cnt-ait.info

 

[rednblack]

Someone said

"how many organisations have you joined now anyway?"

I wonder how many rednblack has joined?

all at once though?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4414442.stm

a surprisingly not too bad article by john simpson here...(i havent read it all yet mind)

 

[sihhi]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/...europe_paris_riot_suburb_residents/html/2.stm

Fair play:

I am happy to do any job, except be a policeman.

 

[Sorry.]

I think "marginalisation"- as in division along "communautaire" lines ispossible.

I've been reading with my self-taught French from Paris Indymedia that proper "les fafs" or "les fachos"- the FN and MNR are ready to re-group and force the issues- especially in the white banlieus of Toulouse, Marseille and Strasbourg.

The right-wing of the UMP currently in power and the eurosceptics at MPF will also make a play of it I'd imagine.

But we've also seen plenty of examples of the view that "it was inevitable", and "we have to solve the social problems in these areas". Along with the consistent leftward momentum in France for quite some time, I wouldn't bet on such a simple correlation between rioting and a move rightward.

 

[revol68]

Actually, a French anarcho statement used pretty much exactly that phrase:

"It is not the "youth" who are violent, but society itself. The media, the
politicians, the pundits all say that we have to give young people
structure. But what kind of structure? That of money and competition (and,
thus, exclusion), the structure of might makes right?

These young people, they are our neighbours, our children, our sisters and
our brothers. They are right to rebel, to refuse to continue to take it
silently. Sure we can always discuss the methods, but we must not forget how the police manipulate and provoke things! "

AIT
c/o AAAFA
BP 5 75860 PARIS Cedex 18
FRANCE

http://cnt-ait.info

yes and i agree with the sentiment entirely but it doesn't stop us from recognising that there have been actions which do not serve the interests of the working class.

It's a bit different in France where this is a live issue but we are discussing it on an internet forumn in the UK, so it hardly helps the french state if discuss the shortcomings of the riots as well as the positives.

Or have I missed somehting and the CRS are currently being uploaded into binary and sent loose on Urban?

 

[Isambard]

Only a middle class fucker whose never had to deal with the actual reality of anti social problems in working class areas.

How do you know the class background of the people on this thread or indeed what kind of area they live in? You don't.

You're going to have raise the level of your argument to something more substantial than just accusing people who have slightly different opinions to yourself of being "middle class".

 

[Random]

yes and i agree with the sentiment entirely but it doesn't stop us from recognising that there have been actions which do not serve the interests of the working class.

That's cool, but can we please have concrete discussion of elements of the French/european uprisings themselves, rather than abstract arguments about whether you can 'ever support' or 'ever condemn', etc. I suppose this speculation bollocks is what we talk about in the absence of information, though

 

[Taxamo Welf]

Only a middle class fucker

thats the third time you've said that, maybe you do it again on the next page.

He is working class.

Play the ball not the man ok?

 

[sihhi]

But we've also seen plenty of examples of the view that "it was inevitable", and "we have to solve the social problems in these areas". Along with the consistent leftward momentum in France for quite some time, I wouldn't bet on such a simple correlation between rioting and a move rightward.

For sure there have been a number of responses but the

I disagree with the bit in bold- only in some sectors has there been a switch to the LCR and PCF.

In latest elections- regional ones March 2004:
http://www. frontnational.com/lefn_resultats_regionales.php

Mars 1998 15,27 % 275 Proportionnelle
Mars 2004 16,6 % 156 Proportionnelle

and European ones June 2004

Juin 1999 5,69 % 5 Proportionnelle
Juin 2004 9,8 % 7 Proportionnelle

FN share of the vote increased...

 

[ClassWar]

Give Sarkozy An Eiffel!

The riots in France show that our French brethren won’t take Sarkozy’s repression lying down! As the violence spreads, as far afield as Brussels and Berlin, we salute the action taken by the French, Belgian and German working classes. Whilst the youth of France are fighting poverty, racism and state oppression, the response from the French government in the ugly shape of Interior Minister Sarkozy is to refer to these people as “scum”. They are not scum, they are working class heroes! Other reactions have been just as predictable: French fascist leader Jean-Marie Le Pen has talked of France being on the verge of civil war. It’s a class civil war! Given that Le Pen has a special section of his party reserved for police officers, his views come as no surprise.

President Chirac’s response has been to bury his head in the sand and wish the riots would go away – just as he wishes the working class would go away. He can declare as many curfews and states of emergency as he likes but the working class won’t go away, you know! There aren’t enough police in France to enforce his decrees!

We’re here today to show solidarity with the youth of France in struggle. It is also important that we send a message to the French ambassador in Britain and to the French government. We remember the 1961 Paris massacre of Algerian workers when an unknown number – possibly as high as 200 – were murdered by the Parisian police force. Then bodies floated down the Seine through the centre of Paris. If the French government is considering a military crackdown in its cities this time, the world is watching.

As France goes up in flames, we offer our unconditional support to the insurrectionary French youth. The media is very keen to divide French youth into specific racial and religious groups, yet working class black, white and Arab youths have far more in common with each other than they have with France’s ruling political elite. Their standing together in recent days against the police onslaught has shown that the lies of the media, who seek to portray the rioting as some foul Islamist plot, are falling on deaf ears. Long may this unity continue!

 

[revol68]

i know he's middle class cos he is a womble.

 

[ClassWar]

yes and i agree with the sentiment entirely but it doesn't stop us from recognising that there have been actions which do not serve the interests of the working class.

It's a bit different in France where this is a live issue but we are discussing it on an internet forumn in the UK, so it hardly helps the french state if discuss the shortcomings of the riots as well as the positives.

Or have I missed somehting and the CRS are currently being uploaded into binary and sent loose on Urban?

It seems that you would only support a 100% perfect riot. They don't exist! People get whacked who don't deserve it, there's always some anti-social behaviour. It's part of mass violence, sadly. The core question is, do you support the working class in struggle in France?

 

[fanta]

You sound like a right bell-end, classwar!

 

[revol68]

It seems that you would only support a 100% perfect riot. They don't exist! People get whacked who don't deserve it, there's always some anti-social behaviour. It's part of mass violence, sadly. The core question is, do you support the working class in struggle in France?

It's not a matter of support it's a matter of learning lessons and gaining a better analysis.

Of course some elements will take advantage, the issue is to what extent will they do this and what organs have the working class in place to structure such rioting, and what sort of developments will come out of the riots?

 

[Pickman's model]

You sound like a right bell-end, classwar!

better than being one, eh, fanta?

 

[knopf]

The core question is, do you support the working class in struggle in France?

Surely the core question is, is this rioting an instance of the working class in struggle in France?