Stupid, stupid fuckers.

[rachamim18]

Frogwoman: "It is no longer about survival, 'Palestinians' are no threat.": Ever see either a "Suicide Bombing" or its direct and immediate ramiifcations? Scraping infant brain matter off of windshields? How about long term ramifications like the thought that each time your toddler scurries off to his or her caregiver/school you might very well might not see them again due to someone who was treated freely and generously in one of your nations' hopsitals and then tried to blow it up? Do you know what kind of smotional mindset is thrown on society?

Secondly, have you ever availed yourself to the HAMAS Charter? Ever seen acceptrable reports on HAMAS finances? How about the PIJ Decleration?

Have you ever counted the number of Arab nations, ALL of which support the "PAlestinian cause? How about the number of nations in the Islamic League apart from the PA? Now count the number of Muslims whose faith declares, with no room for debate, that this land MUST entirely return to Islamic rule.Then please humor me and count both the number of Jews worldwide (including a minority who are anti-Israel), and finally count the number of Israelis (of all backgrounds) and see is you can perceive any type of threat.

 

[rachamim18]

Frogwoman:"Always been threatening to Israel when the PLO was non-violent.": I am a 41 year old man, when was the PLO ever non-violent? Post-Clinton? You must have missed the little chapter on al Akhsa Martyr's Brigade, who by the way are still committing "Suicide Bombings" in my nation, or getting caught attempting to at this point....mostly thasnks to that Apartheid Wall you mention.

"Demand for one man vote.": We as a nation, including more than 1.9 million Arabs according to most do not want "One ManVote" a la Americans. We vote for the ticket, and Arabs by the way serve quite frequently and may run at anytime. ALL Israeli CITIZENS have the right to vote.

"Serbia.": It is two completely and uetterly different situations since the Alabanians would equal the Jews since they ARE the indigenous people of that region, not Serbs (who would then be Arabs in your analogy).

Furthermore, you ignore tha history of the two groups, very recent history such as WWII when most Albanians, including those now called Kosovars, took the Axis side and committed gross atrocities against Serbians who were on the Allied side for the most part. The history actually dates to the late Middle Ages.

"Palestinains" on the other hand have only existed since 1948. You seem to have a light graps on history, no offence.

"Forcing 1.5 milion to live in Wycombe." You are mistaken. close to 2 million live in Gaza. Do not know Wycombe but I do know that Gazan Arabs chose to live there in 05 when they grudgingly (since it removed most rationale from their "Struggle) Withdrawal. Israel ceded the land and they weere allowed a state. Instead they committed themselves to committing formal genocide against Israel and Jews at large.

I should also remind you that prior to the First Inrifadeh travel was nrestricted between Gaza and the "WB" and switiching Residency PErmits ws a simple as a 4 hour wait.You choose to live somewhere, then your "leadership" makes war, do not cry. You English (I am led to believe you are Jewish but do not know you so assume that you are English) say "make you bed you lie in it?" Then lie well.

"In 67 the armies were alot more evenly matxched.": What? the "Palestinians" were less powerful and had not even obtained their first tank. If you mean the formal nations of Egypt,etc., their armies were more powerful than ours. It was our technique, iniative, and alot of luck that won us our victory in 67, not "being evenly matched."

"If Israel were invaded again.": you are confusing your issues. Arab NATIONS pose that threat, "Palestinains" engage us in Assymetrical Warfare in entrenched circumstances. They invaded centuries ago. Already there and already killing and Israel has not managed to "wipe the floor" because to do so would incur gross collateral damage to the tune of tens of thousands if not hundreds, so much for the brutality theory.

 

[rachamim18]

Frogwoman:"The Us would step in.": That would NEVER happen UNLESS a delcared US enemy like Taliban were present. The US engages us in a TACTICAL allaince, not one of friendship or commitment. The commitment they express? To garner the Jewish vote (as much as that fiction exists, as if all Jews are a monolithic entity).

In 80s we engaged US Marines in Lebanon, we took America to task. They are not "friends," but benefactors expecting their incurred debt to be paid, which it is actually pretty regularly, such as the First Gulf War when SCUDs fell on my neighbourhood and we were not allowed to react because of a US Agreement to appease their Arab allies. I can give many examples,etc.

"Israel uses terrorism for its own purposes.": You make no sense with that one. If terrorism exists to ANY degree it must be proactively eal with, or do you think people in S'derot should just live in their shelters and never leave their domiciles...or better we should abandon our land?

"Needs to talk to hAMAS.": You do not speak Arabic as I understand. Please research the word "hudna." That is as close as HAMAS has ever come to even mention Israel.

Please read its Charter and then realise that the ONLY man setting their policy and actual action is a man named Mesha'al who lives in Damasuc, their actual leader. They would not talk to Israel if you offered them 90% of ISrael Proper, it is ideologically anathema to them.

As for most Israelis calling for dialog, that is a myth that owes its existence to 2 spurious polls. I am Israeli and cannot recall anyone I personally know calling for it and only know of people like the Communists doing so, people whose own agenda calls for the setruction of their own nation. This does not mean no other Israelis do so , only that it would be a very isolated case. See, we know their Charter and see their weekly pamphlets, handbvills, posters, and media. We know their commitment and even worse their actions, on a daily basis.

 

[rachamim18]

Panda: A 122 filled with jelly beans can kill. The sheer momentum plus weight of the aluminum and metal equals death.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

And yet. Look at Northern Ireland ten years ago. Who would ever have believed the taigs and the prods could ever sort out their religious and terrortorial disputes? The same people killing each other. Stupid really.

although superfically they are seemingly similar situations a closer comparsion would be the troubles in the early part of the 20th centry with the tans.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

still waiting for that evidences Rach...

tick tock tick tock...

 

[invisibleplanet]

And yet. Look at Northern Ireland ten years ago. Who would ever have believed the taigs and the prods could ever sort out their religious and terrortorial disputes? The same people killing each other. Stupid really.

although superfically they are seemingly similar situations a closer comparsion would be the troubles in the early part of the 20th centry with the tans.

Over time, I've come to see that a comparison with the struggles in NI is a far more useful comparison to make than the comparisons that are made to SA and apartheid.

What are the tans?

 

[rachamim18]

Refers to the colourof the unfirom, Tan and Browns, the drink came later.

 

[nino_savatte]

Refers to the colourof the unfirom, Tan and Browns, the drink came later.

It was also a type of Irish hound.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Over time, I've come to see that a comparison with the struggles in NI is a far more useful comparison to make than the comparisons that are made to SA and apartheid.

What are the tans?

Tans

the perios of irish hisotry of the tans was a particularlly bloody one. The object and what lead to the original RA being formed not the Provision IRA or the Real IRA but the orignals.

systemicly an attempt was made to utterly anglofy the entire of Eire desorying culture erraticating meeting places burning out houses rape murders shootings.

the Black and Tans burned and sacked many small towns and villages in Ireland, beginning with Tuam in County Galway in July 1920 and also including Trim, Balbriggan, Thurles and Templemore amongst many others. In November 1920, the Tans "besieged" Tralee in revenge for the IRA abduction and killing of two local RIC men. They closed all the businesses in the town and let no food in for a week. In addition they shot dead three local people. On 14 November, the Tans abducted and murdered a Roman Catholic priest, Fr Michael Griffin, in Galway. His body was found in a bog in Barna a week later. Finally, the Black and Tans sacked Cork city, on the night of 11 December 1920, the centre of which was burned out — destroying more than 300 buildings. They also shot dead two IRA suspects in the city that night.

In January 1921, the British Labour Commission produced a report on the situation in Ireland which was highly critical of the government's security policy. It said the government, in forming the Black and Tans, had "liberated forces which it is not at present able to dominate". However since 29 December 1920, the British government had sanctioned "official reprisals" in Ireland — usually meaning burning property of IRA men and their suspected sympathisers. Taken together with an increased emphasis on discipline in the RIC, this helped to curb the random atrocities the Black and Tans committed since March 1920 for the remainder of the war, if only because reprisals were now directed from above rather than being the result of a spontaneous desire for revenge.

which lead to the original bloody sunday...

it is however apartide as it's the idea that palesitninas and israelis should be kept aprt and that there should be no intergration between cultures. which is what you get if you attempt to make a one group country based on your worship of a flying spagetti monster...

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: Please let me know how Israeli-Arabs are subjected to racism? If you trot out my general complaint involving our pilot program in the IAF, you must also then acknowledge that they additionaly have an added right that we Jewish Israelis lack, the right to never serve in the army unless they voluntarily enlist, and this was due to their lobbying (continued by the way).

.

I don't expect you to acknowledge the existence of racism and discrimination in Israel. If you did, you'd be undermining all the lies that you've been telling us. This part of your post is no more true than saying "Since the Civil Rights amendments in the US, racism has been effectively eradicated".

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: Racism exists, as does discrmination, not just on an institutional level. The GOVT cannot control individuals' thoughts, but it does incarcerate and/or deport Israelis who engage in actual hate.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: Racism exists, as does discrmination, not just on an institutional level. The GOVT cannot control individuals' thoughts, but it does incarcerate and/or deport Israelis who engage in actual hate.

So what? It exists, it doesn't necessarily have to be state sanctioned to exist. The fact that it exists is sufficient grounds to say that Israel isn't as enlightened as you present it.

 

[rachamim18]

WhaT? Every entiuty in the world has people possesing unpalatable PERSONAL beliefs. The key is whether govt's do so. Israel enlightened? It is not institutionally racist so if that is how you rationalise your statement, so be it.

 

[invisibleplanet]

it is however apartide as it's the idea that palesitninas and israelis should be kept aprt and that there should be no intergration between cultures. which is what you get if you attempt to make a one group country based on your worship of a flying spagetti monster...

You're mixing up national identities with ethnic and religious identity as though they were somehow interchangeable.

You'll have to be clearer if I'm to understand what point it is you're trying to make here.

There are Arabs on Israeli telly and at least one Arab-Hebrew co-existence village that I know of. There are many joint Arab-Hebrew NGOs.

 

[nino_savatte]

WhaT? Every entiuty in the world has people possesing unpalatable PERSONAL beliefs. The key is whether govt's do so. Israel enlightened? It is not institutionally racist so if that is how you rationalise your statement, so be it.

You tried to paint Israeli-Arabs as a happy bunch of souls, better off than their cousins elsewhere, and who never suffer discrimination in Israel in their daily lives. It looks like you've been talking out of your rectum again.

What does "institutional" racism have to do with my point? It doesn't and you're using semantics to to try and dodge the point that I made.

 

[invisibleplanet]

You tried to paint Israeli-Arabs as a happy bunch of souls, better off than their cousins elsewhere, and who never suffer discrimination in Israel in their daily lives.

We know that's not entirely true. I direct you to study Kfar Silwan and Eldad (NGO Settler group) as a case study.

 

[nino_savatte]

We know that's not entirely true. I direct you to study Kfar Silwan and Eldad (NGO Settler group) as a case study.

Have you got a link?

 

[invisibleplanet]

Several.
Here's one to start you off.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/926546.html
Google is your friend.

 

[invisibleplanet]

However, even Harel admits that today only extremist fringes in the national-religious camp, like the Yesha Rabbis Committee (Yesha is the settlers` acronym for Judea, Samaria and Gaza, and also means `salvation` in Hebrew), would sign a formulation claiming that no government in Israel `is entitled` to relinquish the integrity of the land, the very formulation the Who`s Who of Israeli intelligentsia signed 40 years ago.

It is difficult to conclude without mentioning the games time plays on us. Alongside the announcement that was published in Yedioth Ahronoth by the movement for the Greater Land of Israel that day in September 1967 was a touching report about an Arab inhabitant of the Silwan neighborhood of East Jerusalem, who was going around the capital during the days after the war, holding a piece of paper with Hebrew writing on it, which testified that his father had saved the Jewish inhabitants of Silwan during the 1929 riots. The journalist arranged a meeting between the Palestinian and the son of the rabbi of Silwan`s Jews, who had signed that document. `I feel an obligation to honor the signature of my father of blessed memory,` said Yosef Maimoni, the son of Rabbi Shlomo Maimoni. `Heaven forbid that we be ungrateful. We will do everything for you.`

A little more than a year ago, that same Palestinian, Muhammad Guzlan, was evicted from his home in Silwan. The Jewish National Fund insisted that the house in which the Guzlan family has lived for the past 80 years is in fact its property, and has transferred the house to the right-wing Elad association.

http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=20477

I don't have time to give you any more info. I'm just pointing you to a case study which would shed some light on the nature of the situation. Both JNF and Eldad are NGOs working outside of government, and Eldad is a far-right NGO with massive support from right-wing religious ultra-nationalists (or Greater Land of Israel supporters, if you prefer).

 

[nino_savatte]

Je vous remercie.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: A 122 filled with jelly beans can kill. The sheer momentum plus weight of the aluminum and metal equals death.

If it directly impacts on a person standing in the open then it may kill them, true. Little chance of that happening, though.
People need to bear in mind that a Qassam operates on the same basic principle as a Bangalore torpedo, it is, in effect, a Bangalore torpedo with half of it's explosive replaced by propellant and some fins welded on. It's charge is not shaped, it has little of the penetrative power of an artillery round except that bestowed on it by it's momentum (assisted on it's downward trajectory by gravity), and a blast radius that is minimal compared even to a standard shrap hand grenade. Given the right circumstances it can kill, but not as easily as any mass-manufactured explosive munition, including grenades.

 

[frogwoman]

Frogwoman:"Always been threatening to Israel when the PLO was non-violent.": I am a 41 year old man, when was the PLO ever non-violent? Post-Clinton? You must have missed the little chapter on al Akhsa Martyr's Brigade, who by the way are still committing "Suicide Bombings" in my nation, or getting caught attempting to at this point....mostly thasnks to that Apartheid Wall you mention.

Actually there have been several periods where it has been non violent or at least not carried out any attacks, and these periods always end, because of Israeli provocations. I know you probably hate Chomsky but I am reading the "Fateful Triangle" at the moment and he describes this.

"Demand for one man vote.": We as a nation, including more than 1.9 million Arabs according to most do not want "One ManVote" a la Americans. We vote for the ticket, and Arabs by the way serve quite frequently and may run at anytime. ALL Israeli CITIZENS have the right to vote.

I know how Israels party system works. However, Palestinians aren't citizens of Israel are they. Were they to demand citizenship in a non violent manner this would be far more threatening to Israel's regime.

And the fact that Arab Israelis can vote is a bit meaningless to be honest given the amount of discrimination they face and the fact that many of them have been forced to leave their homes to make way for Jewish Settlements.

Dont try and pretend that life for Israeli arabs is a bed of roses which they're just "ungrateful" for, because it really isn't ...

"Serbia.": It is two completely and uetterly different situations since the Alabanians would equal the Jews since they ARE the indigenous people of that region, not Serbs (who would then be Arabs in your analogy).

Eh?
My point about Serbia was to say, look at how we treat the serbs, whose policies in Kosovo only lasted ten years and in many ways, appalling as it was, were less bad (although it was still really bad) than Israel. whereas Israel's regime has lasted 60 years. We still punish Serbia today for what they did ten years ago. Look at how the UK and the USA and Germany (which also planned to elminate serbs during the war btw) all treat this country compared to how we treat Israel and tell me how this is an example of fairness.

Furthermore, you ignore tha history of the two groups, very recent history such as WWII when most Albanians, including those now called Kosovars, took the Axis side and committed gross atrocities against Serbians who were on the Allied side for the most part. The history actually dates to the late Middle Ages.

I know all this, about Kosovo and Serbia, thats why im saying there are double standards with Israel and other nations that have done similar things to attract international condemnation. The way Serbia has been treated, with international isolation even after the collapse of its regime, and democracy being introduced, is in marked contrast to how Israel is being treated internationally, as a respected ally. And for all people's complaints, about bias in the media about Israel, can you seriously say that the Israelis have been depicted in the media the way the Serbs have over the years? No.

"Palestinains" on the other hand have only existed since 1948. You seem to have a light graps on history, no offence.

So what happened, did they just appear out of the sky, or were they told in fictious broadcasts to move into the middle of a war zone just to help the evil arab armies defeat the jewish state?

"Forcing 1.5 milion to live in Wycombe." You are mistaken. close to 2 million live in Gaza. Do not know Wycombe but I do know that Gazan Arabs chose to live there in 05 when they grudgingly (since it removed most rationale from their "Struggle) Withdrawal. Israel ceded the land and they weere allowed a state. Instead they committed themselves to committing formal genocide against Israel and Jews at large.

Well if 2 million live there that just proves my point doesn't it, and the fact is that Gaza is not independent except in name, it is still being constantly bombared by Israel, and they are not allowed access to the sea, airports or ports, so how can you say they're allowed a state, your argument is a load of bollocks. They are still controlled by Israel even if there aren't any settlers there.

I should also remind you that prior to the First Inrifadeh travel was nrestricted between Gaza and the "WB" and switiching Residency PErmits ws a simple as a 4 hour wait.You choose to live somewhere, then your "leadership" makes war, do not cry. You English (I am led to believe you are Jewish but do not know you so assume that you are English) say "make you bed you lie in it?" Then lie well.

I am Jewish, but I'm also English and I don't see what relevance this has to your point. And how can they choose to live there when they are not really allowed out. Even if they did choose to live there in 1948 or 1967 or whatever, it does not change the fact that a lot of them will have had children and it is their only home, they would have grown up there but would not have had a say in what leadership they had. Not every Palestinian thinks the same thing, as the Israeli government constantly says there are plenty of palestinains who do not support Hamas, so why say that nobody should complain because of what the leadership are doing?

Oh and you might as well say to an Israeli after the next suicide bombing, "don't complain if you get bombed because your leadership chooses to make war, so it's your fault", that is basically what your argument is, I'm sorry but that's just stupid. Or how about if America gets attacked by China, dont complain because of your policies towards restricting Chinese trade with America, and you deserve it anyway because of America's actions in the world. Make your bed, lie in it!

"In 67 the armies were alot more evenly matxched.": What? the "Palestinians" were less powerful and had not even obtained their first tank. If you mean the formal nations of Egypt,etc., their armies were more powerful than ours. It was our technique, iniative, and alot of luck that won us our victory in 67, not "being evenly matched."

That's what I mean, the Arab armies were equal to Israel in terms of strength, now that excuse wont work any more, because Israel's army is a lot more powerful than any other Arab force, and even Arab countries put together.

"If Israel were invaded again.": you are confusing your issues. Arab NATIONS pose that threat, "Palestinains" engage us in Assymetrical Warfare in entrenched circumstances. They invaded centuries ago. Already there and already killing and Israel has not managed to "wipe the floor" because to do so would incur gross collateral damage to the tune of tens of thousands if not hundreds, so much for the brutality theory.

Hang on, I thought Palestinians didn't exist till 1948, now you are saying that they invaded "centuries ago" so how could they invade if they didnt exist I think it's you who is confusing your issues mate ...

 

[frogwoman]

Frogwoman:"The Us would step in.": That would NEVER happen UNLESS a delcared US enemy like Taliban were present. The US engages us in a TACTICAL allaince, not one of friendship or commitment. The commitment they express? To garner the Jewish vote (as much as that fiction exists, as if all Jews are a monolithic entity).

I am sorry but I dont believe that the US supplies Israel with three trillion dollars of aid every year just to get the Jewish vote - most Jews in the US vote pretty solidly for the Democrats or independent candidates anyway. The current US establishment don't give a shit about Jews or the "Jewish vote" even more than they care about the "black vote" and a huge amount of them are in fact anti-semitic. But at the same time you can't say that the allaince between the US and Israel is meaningless or for propaganda purposes. Knowing how bad Israels image is around the world and continuing to supply military assistance to such a regime is hardly a propaganda victory.

In 80s we engaged US Marines in Lebanon, we took America to task. They are not "friends," but benefactors expecting their incurred debt to be paid, which it is actually pretty regularly, such as the First Gulf War when SCUDs fell on my neighbourhood and we were not allowed to react because of a US Agreement to appease their Arab allies. I can give many examples,etc.

"Israel uses terrorism for its own purposes.": You make no sense with that one. If terrorism exists to ANY degree it must be proactively eal with, or do you think people in S'derot should just live in their shelters and never leave their domiciles...or better we should abandon our land?

No, I said that Israel, like most countries in the world, exaggerate the threat of terrorism or use actual attacks to justify other agendas. Of course I'm not saying that Israel doesnt have a right to defend itself, it does. But the war on terror provides a convenient cover for other goals.

"Needs to talk to hAMAS.": You do not speak Arabic as I understand. Please research the word "hudna." That is as close as HAMAS has ever come to even mention Israel.

Please read its Charter and then realise that the ONLY man setting their policy and actual action is a man named Mesha'al who lives in Damasuc, their actual leader. They would not talk to Israel if you offered them 90% of ISrael Proper, it is ideologically anathema to them.

Then how come there was a 18-month ceasefire by Hamas before it came to power, and a few years before that as well there was also a ceasefire. How come it was Israel (and most of all the US and the EU) rather than Hamas that "attacked" first after the election victory, effectively killing off anything constructive that could have come out of it.

As for most Israelis calling for dialog, that is a myth that owes its existence to 2 spurious polls. I am Israeli and cannot recall anyone I personally know calling for it and only know of people like the Communists doing so, people whose own agenda calls for the setruction of their own nation. This does not mean no other Israelis do so , only that it would be a very isolated case. See, we know their Charter and see their weekly pamphlets, handbvills, posters, and media. We know their commitment and even worse their actions, on a daily basis.

Then how come 65% of Israelis said in a survey cited by a mainstream newspaper that the government must talk to Hamas. How come even people in Sderot and other towns affected by the attacks are calling for such talks to take place.

 

[rachamim18]

Invisibl: There adozens of such groups aand even at least 4 schools of which I personally know of, and of course all schools are state funded. People have no idea of the hate they spew on this board, good that some like you consider other facets of a seriously complicated dynamic.

What amazes me is, there 1 billion Muslims most of which are seriously concerned with this dynamic, as are most of the 14 odd million Jews, and yet we ourselves (not to mention so many other non-Muslims and non-Jewish groups living in proximity) have not been able to come close to solving it and yet we see, as on this board, so many (most of whom have never been to the region) think they have all the answers for what ails us.

Amazing but that is how Colonialism works, and they do not even realise it. One State? Give up this? Vacate that?

I am 41, and athough i lived there many years, still have a home and kids there, and have studied it even up to the academic level, learn every day. Some here swear they have all the answers and it is just amazing!

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: "Israeli-
Arabs as happy souls.": Not all, they have protests, they have Activists, just like Israeli Jews,etc.

However, they also enjoy the highest standard of living of any of the 32 Arab nations. They enjoy the highest human rights record in the entire Mid-East, also meaning higher than any Arab Nation. They have every right Jews have and then some extra ones (2 sided coin that one but it is how they want it to be frank).


You cannot live in an unregistered town, thus avoiding the Grid (municipal tax base,etc), then complain about lacks of investment towards infrastructure,etc.

You cannot build unpermitted and uninspected buildings and expect to have them stand in mostly desnely populated areas. No nation I know of permits it and we would be remiss were we to ignore that situation. Buildings fall, as an Excavator I know this. People die and it is as simple as it gets.

If I were allowed in your fine country of England, and decided to just build a house on an empty Brixton lot would your govt let is stand without my having going through the permit process? Without having it inspected? Could I then complain that I do not get my share of municipal services?

Although they have the highest standard of living of any Arab entity on a per capita basis, they still lag behind Jewish, Druse, and a few other Israeli demographics in terms of overall figures such as education, income and so forth but this has a few reasons, sich as culturisms that previously, sadly still soemtimes say that the only education one needs is Islamic and that 4 years of madrassa will take you through life...Until last year our minumum drop out age, legaly as a country, was your equivalent of 5th grade or end of .5 Form.Age 11!!!


Then, they refuse Mandatgory Induction so that they cannot gain security ratings for many governmental jobs. We are officialy now Capitalist but the reality is , is that we are one ot he most Socialist nations on the planet, still although many aspects have been Privatised. Thus one should always exercise the option of working for the govt, since it is so encompassing.

They may only get extremely low level municipal jobs that are offered as a sort of entitlement to try to close this gap. This is their choice.

There Are Arabs who volunteer for service, I had a mate who was Arab. The vast majority would not dream of it.

If you CHOOSE to separate from society as a whole here will be discrepancies between you and society as w hole.

 

[rachamim18]

Panda: "Charge not shaped...": That is the tech def but in reality PIJ almost always uses shaped and in fact the ingredients vary as much as the prettily painted casings with Arabic script parying for Jewwish deaths.

Fact is, and I am sure you know this, more than 30 people have died from them so the fact is, they ARE deadly. For disclosure I want to add that not all the deaths were for impact , as in the case of the Bedua father and son who were acrp collecting, saw a casing half in the sand in Negev, tried digging it out both died.

This just further illustrates the point though i would think.

When they stuck to 70 mm bs back in the day it was a different dynamic although when they infiltrated the border even 70 mm was a threat. Now they hit Ashkelon.

"Standing in the open.": What about sitting in your salon on divan? Coming through your tiled roof it is not a fun Shabbat afternoon.

Your factory roof? Hitting huge machinery increasing the shrapnel by a factor of how much?

Noone wants to live a life looking up at the sky for one of those coming at you. it is hell in Negev and they launch without retaliation, but proactively and this is the problem.

Even if it was reactionary it would be wrong, but they iniate the hostilities then cry foul as they slink back into the community unmolested and dance when neighbours take the pay, because it garners that much propaganda vallue as we see here.

I will also add, for disclosure, there ARE Gazans who reject the militants whole hearetedly and at least 2 clans in the north have even iniated firefights to keep them from setting up mobile launchers in their districts? Why? They feared Israeli response. This in turn saved Israeli lives.

I will add as well that it is not seen as a punishment, but a true attempt to NEUTRALISE their p[ositions and resources. For every beach incident, which by the way , and this will be debated here surely, was the fault of a HAMAS mine, there are dozens of successful IAF/IDF strikes on militant positions, as in the car full of Qassams last week.

Operating in the , literally, most densely populated area on Earth I think we do damn well.

 

[rachamim18]

Frogwoman: "Many periods of non-violence.": The PLO is an umbrella, not an organisation per se. Some factions have been quiet, many ofr decades. Others, try to kill us EVERY DAY and their individual charters enshrine this. This is a fact.

"Chomsky.": Whether I hate him or not you shoud read him, I do as well. Did more than that but that is off subject. Point though, the man is not a political scientist nor a historian. He is a linguist. his opinion, OPINON means as much to me as one of my labourers.

I will also ask you to review his thoughts on Hezbollah. Do you agree with THEM? Because he says it means nothing.

People pay currency because he is a Jew who does not say he hates it, yet he is an ally to Holocaust Deniers, a propaganda shill for ANYTHING anti-Arab and yet even he hits it on the head once or twice.

Know what he says about Israeli engaging in Aparthed? Please research that nugget, then see if you think he is such a great source.

" 'Palestinians' are not citizens of Israel.": Of course not, by choice. See how East Jrusalem has wored out.

Would they be a threat if they did become citizens, thus getting the right to vote? Of course and this is why we are ceding almost the entire "Territories." PLease read the ruling party's (my party) Charter. It is based almost entirely on this principle. We were supposed to have ceded the rest of the "WB" more than a year ago but the HAMAS coup prevented this. in fact, little known outside our military is that the PA has begged us not to cede, fearing a lack of power base but that is another tale to tell.

The whole concept behind Withdrawal is the fear of the demographic shift. They are still polygamous (rare but they do engage in it), do not use any birth control, and obviously have outpaced us demogrpahically. We would lose our Zionist Nation without a single shot.

I will add though, we had agreed to the 2 State in 1919 so it is not entirely demographically based, just the Ruling Paty's (correct) rationale.

"Israeli Arabs forced to leave homes for "Jewish Settlements.": What? I think that either you are confusing two situations or referring to pre-Statehood events. If it is the latter, any Jewish village was built on land that had housed Jews for thousands of years before Arabs even existed so how could it be a "Settlement?"

"Settlements" are used to refer to post 67 Jewish habitacions in either Gaza or the "WB"."

 

[rachamim18]

Frogwoman: "Serb policies lasted 10 years." You glossed over the dynamic dating from the Middle Ages. It is almost 1000 years old ,10. So your reasoning is actually, no offence, backwards on this issue.

"How we treat Serbia." Each nation or entity must be treated according to separate dynamics. Serbia is Not Israel. Serbia is part of a newly dissolved nation that encompassed both groups, forced them to cohabitate, and thewn dissolved leaving them in anrachy...?HEY! Kind of like England and what they did to us! Seriously though, it is totally different dynamic.


"Israel treated like Serbia in the emdia.": Again, backwards. Check the Guardian, check BBC, check CNN, see how Israel is depicted.

Israel is a TACTICAL ally to the West and even then it is a tenuous deal as with France for the last 2 decades (used to be real tactical allies).

"Did 'Palestinians' fall out of the sky.": No, they migrated there under the latter half of the Ottoman Era. they then gained a demographic majority, but still had no identity whatsoever past the next village.

Then came the Ali Pasha Era in the early 1830s and the Nablus Rebellion and a national identity of sorts began to emerge, except that it was as part of Syria, not anything separate.

In fact they then began identifying as "Southern Syrians," which is what they called their "land,until the early 20th Century when a handful of intellectuals pushed the "Canaanite Movement," which of course had no realistic basis and never gaineed currency.

Prior to 48 all inhabitants were called "PAlestinians" by the Brits in post WWI MAndate, as was my Dad who has it stamped on his birth certificate.

Post 48 Arabs began coopting the idenity since others had become Israelis. They beilieved that it gave them a connection to the land since it had been called "PAlestine" by occupiers since the Roman Exile (when it had been named so to punish Jews, by the Romans).

Hope this helps.

 

[rachamim18]

Frogwoman:"Gaza is not independant but in name.": It weas offered, and they still rejected it did they not? HAMAS is illegal not only by International Law BUT BY PA LAW AS WELL!!! How can you think they should be given recognition?

Then you forget that Gaza has iniated hostilities since the day we ceded it and our response has only been periodic. If it is isolated, it is by their choice in committing grievous actions.

"English or Jewish, what is the poiint?": Actually it is relevant in other ways but my point was simply to adress you correctly. I like to know about people, as they do about me. Some people correctly reject their English identity when they are Jewish, and are angry when called English. OK?

Just for the record, to be honest, you can be an English citizen for 20 generations but you are not English sister. I am sure do not need to tell you that nation's history, nor its hsitory with "its Jews." But of course I am not a person who can dictate what you think or feel.

"Children growing up with no say in leadership.": That was their CHOICE. Repeatedly since 1919.It is called "accepting responsibility." Do not b;ame Israel for their stalessness. No other nation on Earth has been as generous to another as Israel to the "Palestinians."

they have no historical right to the land, only a UN offer that they rejected so that they not even have a legal right. YET, Israel has agreed and even often promoted their "quest" for statehood. Remember, we accepted the 2 State in 1919 and never rejected it officialy, although some right wing leaders of the Transtional Era (mid-80s) did so in speeches due to reactionism.