Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
DOing a '360' means arriving back where you started. Is that really what you meant?
Stupid, stupid fuckers.
- Thread starter danny la rouge
- Start date
DOing a '360' means arriving back where you started. Is that really what you meant?
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Didn't he a do a song called "Road to Hell"? Not that I'm a fan, you understand. 
Editor: It took me like 5 minutes to figure what that album was all about, but I admit it made me smile. I do really need to work on my spelling. Part of it is typing too fast in unfamiliar font but I will indeed work on it.
The name Chris Rea sounds familiar though.
Random: Yes, that is what I meant, in the FIGURATIVE sense. Morris began as a typical right wing Zionist, meandered toawards Revisionism. In fact he calls himself a reformed Revisionist.Then came back around to the beginning and took the typical Right Wing stance.
I must clarify something here: Revisionism is a form of Zionism that is extremely Right Wing, some say hyper violent (when they have no clue) but this is not the Revisionism being discussed. Morris claims that he joined the ranks of Pappe, Weitz, and many others in that they questioned the veracity of the Labour Zionist (and then Linkud) Line.
They sought to totally deconstruct the entire Israeli "Myth" as they called it and rebuild it from the truth on up. Most like Pappe were exposed for the frauds they are (sure to hear about this one) but Morris claims to have done some soul searching and although he now supposedly still describes himself as a "Leftist," he is the epitome of a Right Wing Israeli.
So, you begin in Point A, go full circle and end up again at Point A. Seems like a 360 to me.
The name Chris Rea sounds familiar though.
Random: Yes, that is what I meant, in the FIGURATIVE sense. Morris began as a typical right wing Zionist, meandered toawards Revisionism. In fact he calls himself a reformed Revisionist.Then came back around to the beginning and took the typical Right Wing stance.
I must clarify something here: Revisionism is a form of Zionism that is extremely Right Wing, some say hyper violent (when they have no clue) but this is not the Revisionism being discussed. Morris claims that he joined the ranks of Pappe, Weitz, and many others in that they questioned the veracity of the Labour Zionist (and then Linkud) Line.
They sought to totally deconstruct the entire Israeli "Myth" as they called it and rebuild it from the truth on up. Most like Pappe were exposed for the frauds they are (sure to hear about this one) but Morris claims to have done some soul searching and although he now supposedly still describes himself as a "Leftist," he is the epitome of a Right Wing Israeli.
So, you begin in Point A, go full circle and end up again at Point A. Seems like a 360 to me.
Spion
I hear ya
When? Source please
Spion
I hear ya
Hyper violent is a bit of a silly phrase. But the Revisionists certainly were pretty bloodthirsty. Like here at Deir Yassin ('dissidents' was another name for Zionist revisionists). But they were no more violent and sadistic than many in the Haganah, with whom they often collaborated (and sometimes fell out with)
“In the quarry near Givat Shaul I saw the five Arabs they had paraded in the streets of the city. They had been murdered and were lying one on top of the other . . . I saw with my own eyes several families murdered with their women, children and old people, their corpses were lying on top of each other . . . the dissidents were going about the village robbing and stealing everything: chickens, radio sets, sugar, money, gold and more . . . Each dissident walked about the village dirty with blood and proud of the number of people he had killed.” (‘Avraham’ [Meir Pa’il] to Jerusalem District OC, 10 April 1948, in Haganah General Staff\Operations\intelligence to Haganah Corps, ‘Lessons from the dissidents’ operations in Deir Yassin’, HA20\253, cited in Morris, the Birth of . . . p238)
Spion: We have been through this time and again. Was not Pappe censured? Was not his dissertation rejected? Did not he himself publish an apology in the Israeli media? did not you and 'I discuss this in a thread more thanb once? Maybe you should stop harping on trying to nail me and keep your mind on the subject matter.
By the way, have you seen Pappe's searing criticsm of Morris and the works you have just recently quoted? It sppears in the Mason University newsletter, you should take a look at it (next I will see, "source?". Sorry, already gave you all the infoyyou need. If you really care look it up).
By the way, have you seen Pappe's searing criticsm of Morris and the works you have just recently quoted? It sppears in the Mason University newsletter, you should take a look at it (next I will see, "source?". Sorry, already gave you all the infoyyou need. If you really care look it up).
Spion: "Hyper violent is a silly phrase.": Sorry you think so.
As for your Haganah fantasyI would have thought the 20 or 30 sources i posted the other day would have got you off that track. See? This is eaxctly why I tend to dismiss any requests you make. I could provide Nachmani's actual diary (please start spelling the man's name correctly anyway) and you would still call foul.
How did Morris come to his conclusions? By speaking to Nachamni's kids most of all, who only provided a few pages of their Dad's book. He was a land agent as you should know and his job, a job he relished, was undercutting Arabs on land deals and acquiring their land by any means neccessary. See any lapses of logic in Morris' conclusions yet?
Anyway, I will not touch it. Even Pappe finds fault in that as I just mentioned.
As for the quote in your second post, again, learn Hebrew. Then you too can see how Morris played games with words. Read Karsh, read Pappe as I just said...although he is a fruitcake a la Finkelstein he at least does a decent job of tearing Morris apart during Morris' old Left Wing dalliances.
Morris had a sad habit of interpolation and outright deceit in representing what was said in Hebrew.IU even wasted an afternoon posting a few thousand words to you to show the originals and the Morris fakes but it nvever changes anything. Pretty sad when you have the truth in your face and still ignore it.
As for your Haganah fantasyI would have thought the 20 or 30 sources i posted the other day would have got you off that track. See? This is eaxctly why I tend to dismiss any requests you make. I could provide Nachmani's actual diary (please start spelling the man's name correctly anyway) and you would still call foul.
How did Morris come to his conclusions? By speaking to Nachamni's kids most of all, who only provided a few pages of their Dad's book. He was a land agent as you should know and his job, a job he relished, was undercutting Arabs on land deals and acquiring their land by any means neccessary. See any lapses of logic in Morris' conclusions yet?
Anyway, I will not touch it. Even Pappe finds fault in that as I just mentioned.
As for the quote in your second post, again, learn Hebrew. Then you too can see how Morris played games with words. Read Karsh, read Pappe as I just said...although he is a fruitcake a la Finkelstein he at least does a decent job of tearing Morris apart during Morris' old Left Wing dalliances.
Morris had a sad habit of interpolation and outright deceit in representing what was said in Hebrew.IU even wasted an afternoon posting a few thousand words to you to show the originals and the Morris fakes but it nvever changes anything. Pretty sad when you have the truth in your face and still ignore it.
Spion
I hear ya
Fuck me you're confused. It was Teddy Katz who had his thesis rejected and made that apology under duress in very mysterious circumstances
Anyway, here's the man himself speaking on the issue:
And on how Israel has created generations of killers:
And on the Tantura massacre and ethnic cleansing:
I thank you for your continued role of presenting me the opportunity to present this material
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
Indeed - Pape is still an academic at an Israeli university, isn't he? Not so discredited then - and good to see that there are strong dissidents within Israel itself.Regarding Morris, the fact that he changed tack due to political events (the 2000+ intifada) rather than due to new research he'd come across suggests that there's no reason to take his new take on the situation seriously.
Spion: Yes, because of Pappe who then was censured so it would seem that I was partly confused by only by their close assoaciation as mentor/advisor and student. Pappe , or Dr. Haw-Haw as he is affectionately known was kicked out of his acdemic chair because of the actions taken helping his acolyte Katz publish the piece that cause the brouhaha.
He was removed after a very contentious court case in which he was taken to task for about 9 offences, so I was not far from the mark.
Yes, Katz printed the retraction, Katz had his thesis rejected and yes, I stated that it was Pappe but since Pappe had pulled the strings that caused the affair, I was not more than tad bit off.
I have to ask though, is this about facts or showing a person up? Because the way you act is more than troubling. I would think, if you gave the slightest damn about the info being discussed, you would concentrate a bit more on the facts and less on me.
You list Pappe, Morris, and a couple of Ha'aretz articles (OHHHHH and now the paragon of truth and justice, Youtube!) and think it rests well. You do not confront the 2 to 3 dozen Arab sources I have provided, you act as if you did not even read them. How about a response? Even halfway?
All you can do is recycle the opinions of people who lived a half a century after the event and then tell us that since they are Israeli Jews, they must be right. In light of the fact that all those sources you provide (Katz, Morris, Pappe, et al) have been proven to be charlatants I do not see as how you can make much of a point.
Frog: Guess you have not been reading the entire thread. I would first suggest that if you wish to study the words or thoughts of one man, do not do it by reading the words of a second man, and academic aompetitor at that.
As for the idea that Morris condones cleansing, preposterous. What he DId say though, and only after coming around to the right in98/99, was that givewn the circumstances descibed by people like PAppe,et al iot would be understandable.
He did not claim that Israel committed Ethnic Cleansing and in fact since I believe Geneva in 49 made the act an International Crimew, why is there no move at the Hague to rectify it?
The whole idea is ridiculous...NOT TO MENTION it seems AGAIN, noone has read the manyt ciontemporous accounts, BY ARABS, that the event(s) never even took place. Talk about not dealing with reality.
He was removed after a very contentious court case in which he was taken to task for about 9 offences, so I was not far from the mark.
Yes, Katz printed the retraction, Katz had his thesis rejected and yes, I stated that it was Pappe but since Pappe had pulled the strings that caused the affair, I was not more than tad bit off.
I have to ask though, is this about facts or showing a person up? Because the way you act is more than troubling. I would think, if you gave the slightest damn about the info being discussed, you would concentrate a bit more on the facts and less on me.
You list Pappe, Morris, and a couple of Ha'aretz articles (OHHHHH and now the paragon of truth and justice, Youtube!) and think it rests well. You do not confront the 2 to 3 dozen Arab sources I have provided, you act as if you did not even read them. How about a response? Even halfway?
All you can do is recycle the opinions of people who lived a half a century after the event and then tell us that since they are Israeli Jews, they must be right. In light of the fact that all those sources you provide (Katz, Morris, Pappe, et al) have been proven to be charlatants I do not see as how you can make much of a point.
Frog: Guess you have not been reading the entire thread. I would first suggest that if you wish to study the words or thoughts of one man, do not do it by reading the words of a second man, and academic aompetitor at that.
As for the idea that Morris condones cleansing, preposterous. What he DId say though, and only after coming around to the right in98/99, was that givewn the circumstances descibed by people like PAppe,et al iot would be understandable.
He did not claim that Israel committed Ethnic Cleansing and in fact since I believe Geneva in 49 made the act an International Crimew, why is there no move at the Hague to rectify it?
The whole idea is ridiculous...NOT TO MENTION it seems AGAIN, noone has read the manyt ciontemporous accounts, BY ARABS, that the event(s) never even took place. Talk about not dealing with reality.
Spion
I hear ya
It's one lie after another with you, isn't it? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/oct/03/israel2
Jeez, it's like 1984 with you. The evidence for ethnic cleansing is overwhelming, and all available in Zionists' own words - the intent to transfer Arabs, Plan D, the 550 villages cleared, the dozen cities besieged and cleansed. It's all there for anyone capable of getting to grips with recent historians' efforts using IDF archives
Spion: The Guardian? Why not offer al; Akhsa TV as a source? As we have discussed how many times over how many years, when has that paper EVER given fair treatment to anything Israeli? I do believe I even made you a monetary bet at one time to produce a single piece within the last decade and you did not take me up on it.
What Morris HAS said is the following in paraphrase: He can understand why it would happen and it might even make sense to do so in the future. He is of course dead wrong, and that just goes even further to show him for the complete and uetter nutjob he is.
A question now comes to mind of course. You find so much fault with his views now that is a reformed right winger, but when he was someone you saw as on the left you aped him night and day and even still quote him when reporducing English exceprts from the Nachmani (noticce that spelling) Diary.
As for youe second paragraph, it all relies on Arab and anti-Zionist sources. You do not read Hebrew nor do you even provide approved English sources. If ANY Of it was true you would have the grounds for an incredible case at the Hague. It does not trouble your rationale though to wonder why this has never happened? Maybe it is because the "evidence" never happened?
Ethnic Cleansing was declared qagainst International Law I believe in 1949, certainly a case could be made, why has it it not then?
What Morris HAS said is the following in paraphrase: He can understand why it would happen and it might even make sense to do so in the future. He is of course dead wrong, and that just goes even further to show him for the complete and uetter nutjob he is.
A question now comes to mind of course. You find so much fault with his views now that is a reformed right winger, but when he was someone you saw as on the left you aped him night and day and even still quote him when reporducing English exceprts from the Nachmani (noticce that spelling) Diary.
As for youe second paragraph, it all relies on Arab and anti-Zionist sources. You do not read Hebrew nor do you even provide approved English sources. If ANY Of it was true you would have the grounds for an incredible case at the Hague. It does not trouble your rationale though to wonder why this has never happened? Maybe it is because the "evidence" never happened?
Ethnic Cleansing was declared qagainst International Law I believe in 1949, certainly a case could be made, why has it it not then?
Spion
I hear ya
Morris is quoted directly in that article
Not true, as you well know. There are thousands of Haganah/IDF sources. And to suggest Plan D is Arab or anti-zionist is quite ludicrous
Absolute nonsense. It arose as a result of the Yugoslav war in the 1990s
All these lies - you nerve is quite astounding
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Indeed.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
You may dislike the paper-but you seem to be suggesting the Guardian made that quote up then?
Do you have the evidence to back that up?
Spion: "Morris si quoted directly in the Guardian article.": So? Forgive me but I fail to see your point. I find both equally worthless and spurious.
"Thousands of IDF/Haganah sources.": Sorry, wrong. One thing I DO know is the IDF. We have a class in Bakum called Moreshet Krav, all Kravi take this calss, it is mandatory. In it, we are taught about all the major engagements, as well as the supposed debacles.
The IDF does not gloss over mistakes but tries to have its new ghenerations learn from them.
At rank, you can also access all records up to your Intel rating, and I had a very high rating. You have not seen anything that I have not already seen many times and to witr, none the propaganda you post, off of propaganda/partisan sites, and the Guardian is not much better, has ever happened.
Sure, people are totally entitled to their own perceptions and opinions but what you do not even realise is that your very claim of brutality, inhumanity, and so forth is negated by the very fact that youy claim these dairies have existed to be published. Do you not think that IF they existed, and WERE published, the IDF would have done its best to see that they never saw the light of day?
Instead, the IDF has done nothing, as it usually does when b.s. is spread over the table. It mistakenly believes that all rational people will know that the outlandish claims made by people like Morris (who of course reversed himself),et al are just fabrications .
Why fabricate? In a country of (then) 3 million, Morris and others who came out at the same time, the so called Revisonist Movement, wanted to stand out and make an academic name for themselves, Otherwise they would be one more face in a nation with the number 2 per capita amount of advanced degrees IN THE WORLD.
Of course most charlatants have been unmasked, like Katz, Pappe, and even Morris but this lunacy continues until naive Westerners such as yourself (no offence) lkap it up like milk.
"Ethnic Cleansing became illegal as the reult of Yugoslavia in the 90s.": I suggest you study Geneva #4. More egg on the face Spion. Perhaps you might also admit your mistake since it has nothing to do with Israel, it might be easier to do so in this context. It would be a nice beginning.
"Thousands of IDF/Haganah sources.": Sorry, wrong. One thing I DO know is the IDF. We have a class in Bakum called Moreshet Krav, all Kravi take this calss, it is mandatory. In it, we are taught about all the major engagements, as well as the supposed debacles.
The IDF does not gloss over mistakes but tries to have its new ghenerations learn from them.
At rank, you can also access all records up to your Intel rating, and I had a very high rating. You have not seen anything that I have not already seen many times and to witr, none the propaganda you post, off of propaganda/partisan sites, and the Guardian is not much better, has ever happened.
Sure, people are totally entitled to their own perceptions and opinions but what you do not even realise is that your very claim of brutality, inhumanity, and so forth is negated by the very fact that youy claim these dairies have existed to be published. Do you not think that IF they existed, and WERE published, the IDF would have done its best to see that they never saw the light of day?
Instead, the IDF has done nothing, as it usually does when b.s. is spread over the table. It mistakenly believes that all rational people will know that the outlandish claims made by people like Morris (who of course reversed himself),et al are just fabrications .
Why fabricate? In a country of (then) 3 million, Morris and others who came out at the same time, the so called Revisonist Movement, wanted to stand out and make an academic name for themselves, Otherwise they would be one more face in a nation with the number 2 per capita amount of advanced degrees IN THE WORLD.
Of course most charlatants have been unmasked, like Katz, Pappe, and even Morris but this lunacy continues until naive Westerners such as yourself (no offence) lkap it up like milk.
"Ethnic Cleansing became illegal as the reult of Yugoslavia in the 90s.": I suggest you study Geneva #4. More egg on the face Spion. Perhaps you might also admit your mistake since it has nothing to do with Israel, it might be easier to do so in this context. It would be a nice beginning.
To help you, Look at Geneva #4, Article # 49.
Now if you will admit you were wrong...
Now if you will admit you were wrong...
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I think what he means is that it wasn't called ethnic cleansing then, not that it wasn't a crime ...
Frog: I will look at that thread you asked about.
IF he was simply talking about the term "Ethnic Cleansing: I would imagine that he would have had enough basic intelligence to know the difference between the 2 issues. I stated that IT BECAME ILLEGAL IN 1949, not that it began being called that and that is quite clear. No,I am sure that he understood although it will be funny to see him now grab that lifeline you just threw him. He will say, I did not think you were talking about "Population Transfer," etc.
Look, frankly I do not care about Spion and what he does or does not do. I simply hope that he concentrates on the issues, and not on me so I really should not be happy when he makes an obvious mistake. It is just that in dealing with such hateful people, I find that sometimes I just want to see them fail so that they can realise that just as their claim is filled with inaccuracies, so is their narrow and concrete position.
Then again, he might just totally speed past it in the rush to the next hate filled subject and we might never hear what Spion's take is on it.
IF he was simply talking about the term "Ethnic Cleansing: I would imagine that he would have had enough basic intelligence to know the difference between the 2 issues. I stated that IT BECAME ILLEGAL IN 1949, not that it began being called that and that is quite clear. No,I am sure that he understood although it will be funny to see him now grab that lifeline you just threw him. He will say, I did not think you were talking about "Population Transfer," etc.
Look, frankly I do not care about Spion and what he does or does not do. I simply hope that he concentrates on the issues, and not on me so I really should not be happy when he makes an obvious mistake. It is just that in dealing with such hateful people, I find that sometimes I just want to see them fail so that they can realise that just as their claim is filled with inaccuracies, so is their narrow and concrete position.
Then again, he might just totally speed past it in the rush to the next hate filled subject and we might never hear what Spion's take is on it.
Spion
I hear ya
Egg on my face? Shame on Israel more like
"Right of return
Article 49. The second paragraph of Article 49 provides that persons displaced during armed conflict must be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased. This right of displaced persons is often referred to as the "right of return" and has been reaffirmed in later international treaties and conventions. State Practice also establishes this rule as a norm of customary international law, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross."
Spion
I hear ya
Exactly
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Spion: "Eaxactly.": As some Americans say, "Same difference," right?
As for "Roght of Return," I will assume that you aware that Israel offered 100,000 "Palestinians" just that as the first increment of a full return under UN Mediation, but the "Palestinians" refused the offer out of hand fearing it would infer recognition of a nation they denied, Israel. So...Want to try again?
I wonder though, for the sake of conversation, was there EVER such an offer for any of the more than 1 million Jewish Refugess from Arab Lands? Hmmm...
As for "Roght of Return," I will assume that you aware that Israel offered 100,000 "Palestinians" just that as the first increment of a full return under UN Mediation, but the "Palestinians" refused the offer out of hand fearing it would infer recognition of a nation they denied, Israel. So...Want to try again?
I wonder though, for the sake of conversation, was there EVER such an offer for any of the more than 1 million Jewish Refugess from Arab Lands? Hmmm...
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