Stupid, stupid fuckers.

[Spion]

I don't think I am alone in opposing the legitimacy of the state of Israel, or International Zionism

I didn't say you were. I oppose it too. I just think that if you want any credibility at all as an opponent of Zionism in a forum like this you need to have a better argument than just repeating 'death to this, death to that' a few times. It belies a lack of knowledge and/or thought-through consideration of possible solutions. You've had good people call you a cunt and other things here because of your outburst

 

[Nigel]

I never took this thread or others like it to be a serious analysis of insurgency and counter insurgency in Occupied Palestine.

I feel sorry for the people and their families who were killed at the attack on Mercaz Havow. However they were part of a right wing Zionist Group intent on the Ethnic Cleansing of the Palestinian Peoples.

I have set certain boundaries with various posters on this board which I and to a lesser degree they have stuck to.

My opinions to the situation in Occupied Palestine, to a greater or lesser extent can, although in some ways I find it a bit too liberal be found on Electronic Intifada & Democratic Palestine.
http://members.tripod.com/~freepalestine/

 

[Spion]

I never took this thread or others like it to be a serious analysis of insurgency and counter insurgency in Occupied Palestine.

It's a serious as you wanna make it. I guarantee that ranting gets you nowhere tho

My opinions to the situation in Occupied Palestine, to a greater or lesser extent can, although in some ways I find it a bit too liberal be found on Electronic Intifada & Democratic Palestine.
http://members.tripod.com/~freepalestine/

I see Ghassan Kanafani's picture comes up on that - great story he wrote, Men in the Sun. And the film of it was really powerful

 

[TopCat]

I recollect the Mau Mau in Kenya pangering colonalists kids in the crutch. An awful desperate thing to do but it was also a tactic which had much to do with causing the British to get out and allow independance.

I refuse to condem the action in the OP for the same reason.

 

[rachamim18]

Editor: Get rea;. You know exactly what it was, sarcasm as has been claimed and used against me for 5 years. If you want an excuse to ban me, for holding different opinions, just do it. I would hope we are all adult enough not to play stupid games.

I do find your touch and go moderation quite interesting. I am a baby killer, a cun%, a rapist, and all soprts of fun things, simply for being Israeli, but when one tongue in cheek comment comes out, on comes the red light. How trite. To be honest I expected it and that is why I have been pushing it lately. Glad to see my point proven.

In fact, in this very thread you have people wishing death to my wntrire nation, but you aks me for apologies? Riiiight. Only difference though that mine was clearly sarcastic while the other was clearly serious. Pretty sad really.

Other posters, speking to others, after your "request" have used words like "knob wart," "cun%," actually 2 different people called one poster that...and you have the audacity to try and pin me? Your ship captain, do as you will.

 

[mr_eko]

I recollect the Mau Mau in Kenya pangering colonalists kids in the crutch. An awful desperate thing to do but it was also a tactic which had much to do with causing the British to get out and allow independance.

I refuse to condem the action in the OP for the same reason.

Deliberately setting out to kill innocent people is just murder and it can never be justfied. The mau mau killed a lot of children during its campaign infact they killed many more kenyan children then colonalists. They could have achieved their aims without attacking children or any oher innocent people.

 

[Jonti]

So how was Israel established in the first place? Remind me again of the events of the Naqba?

 

[nino_savatte]

Editor: Get rea;. You know exactly what it was, sarcasm as has been claimed and used against me for 5 years. If you want an excuse to ban me, for holding different opinions, just do it. I would hope we are all adult enough not to play stupid games.

I do find your touch and go moderation quite interesting. I am a baby killer, a cun%, a rapist, and all soprts of fun things, simply for being Israeli, but when one tongue in cheek comment comes out, on comes the red light. How trite. To be honest I expected it and that is why I have been pushing it lately. Glad to see my point proven.

In fact, in this very thread you have people wishing death to my wntrire nation, but you aks me for apologies? Riiiight. Only difference though that mine was clearly sarcastic while the other was clearly serious. Pretty sad really.

Other posters, speking to others, after your "request" have used words like "knob wart," "cun%," actually 2 different people called one poster that...and you have the audacity to try and pin me? Your ship captain, do as you will.

Yet, there exists no proof of these things that you allege others have called you. You'd certainly give Walter Mitty a run for his money in the fantasy stakes.

 

[Grandma Death]

I am a baby killer, a cun%, a rapist, and all soprts of fun things, simply for being Israeli,

Is it cause I is israeli.

 

[The Black Hand]

Is it cause I is israeli.

Definately maybe

 

[Spion]

I recollect the Mau Mau in Kenya pangering colonalists kids in the crutch. An awful desperate thing to do but it was also a tactic which had much to do with causing the British to get out and allow independance.

I refuse to condem the action in the OP for the same reason.

Aye, the violence of the oppressed is not the moral equivalent of that of the oppressor. Although I don't think the actions we're speaking about here are perfect - far from it in fact. In an ideal world mass action would be the best possible way to achieve such goals.

 

[DexterTCN]

I am a baby killer, a cun%, a rapist, and all soprts of fun things, simply for being Israeli,

my dear boy, if you were just an israeli, no-one would even bother with you

you're a mouth-piece, an organ grinder's monkey, a ventriloquist's dummy, an apologist, a haw-haw, a whore in the very best tradition of 'lie back and think of your land'

you don't have an original thought in your body, your total is made up of the parts consisting of your media, your politicians and your army....

believe me, the sum is less than the (already unconvincing) parts

your religious bias transcends current politics, harking back to justification for inquisitions and witch burnings, your concepts of justice.....an anathema to modern man

more importantly...didn't you promise you were going away for a while?

run out of stones?

 

[rachamim18]

Jonti: You need only look to the UN Ratification. Israel had no need for Ethnic Cleansing since the land was already legally its own.

If you wish to review Refugee Issues, instead of looking at 450,000 Arabs who mostly left their homes by their own volition and many of whom took up arms aginst Israelis who had vowed in writing to peacefully coexist with them...look instead at the more than 1 million Jews from Arab lands forced to flee at the same time and the more than 2 billion US in assets and properties lost forever. This second issue has never been intordcued for discussion on the floor of any world venue.

Dexter: "Organ Grinder's Monkey." Dehumanising? "Ventriloquist's Dummy." More of the same? "A whore." Should we go on?

YES EDITOR, tell me again about apologies. At least my comments are in jest. Can you seriously suggest the comments just refernced, and seen daily, are in the same vein?

 

[Fire]

Jonti: You need only look to the UN Ratification. Israel had no need for Ethnic Cleansing since the land was already legally its own.

How does one go about creating a Jewish state if Jews are not the majority ethnicity?

If you wish to review Refugee Issues, instead of looking at 450,000 Arabs who mostly left their homes by their own volition and many of whom took up arms aginst Israelis who had vowed in writing to peacefully coexist with them...

What do you think Ben Gurion meant when he said "Expel them!" to Rabin and Allon? Other of his (in)famous quotes include "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." and "We must expel the Arabs and take their places."

look instead at the more than 1 million Jews from Arab lands forced to flee at the same time and the more than 2 billion US in assets and properties lost forever. This second issue has never been intordcued for discussion on the floor of any world venue.

Does this mean that two wrongs make a right?

Interestingly Ben Gurion also says of the Arabs "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

One might think that it almost legitimises their struggle.

 

[rachamim18]

Fire: When Jews are in minority, how could a Jewish state be stablished?": First. population figures have nothing to do with either the morality or legality of the state of Israel.

Modern Israel exists because the ancient descendants of that very land have been able to return and make it so, under UN Ratification thus giving it a perfect rationale in International Law.

As for population, which you seem to be worried about, you need to look at two issues: First, land was, after the initial 1919/1920 Offer that gave the Arabs more than 74% of all land and the vast majority of arable land, on projected population figures based onexpexted immmigration and these numbers were revised several times, the Jewish demographic climbing in the face of WWII and the reluctance of any other nation to really take in any meaningful number of Jews.

This also took into account the reluctance of Arabs to come to the table, as well as the British lopping off the majority of the proposed Arab side to create the illegal nation of Trans-Jordan.

In the era immediately prior to Statehood, the Jewish portion had 608/000 Jews living on that land. How many Arabs were living on that same portion? You might be very suprised.

UNSCOP admittedly offers a lower number of about a half a million and yuet that is only Jews on the ground and not the afore mentioned predicted returness once the death camps opened their gates.


Even the UNSCOP figures offer a Jewish majority.

This combined with the Ratification allows the nation to be created.


"What did Gurion mean whe he said 'expel' them to Rabin,etc...?": I have said it many times here. Unless you read Hebrew, and read a Hebrew version of his "Diaries," you should not be reading them. People like Mossis , who by the way is the one responsible for that little sound bute and who now retracts his mistakes.

Doi you know what Gution really said, among other things? On the subject of Arab coexistence Gur9ion often railed quite angrily against people suggesting population shifts, a concept that happened to be legal until right before Statehood and had been used in amny, many regional ann Post WWII nations in Euroope.

Gurion said that any Arab willing to live peacefully in coexistence should be allowed to do so.

Do not let a lack of Hebrew limit you though as there are official versions of the journals, you will not find them on propaganda sites however. give it a shot, I think you will be surprised.


Or alternatively you can search the forum and see where we have dscussed this issue many times and I have provded the supposed passages you (and others have) referenced so that you can see that not only are worgs added and subtracted, but the full context is provided.


"Do 2 wrongs make a right?": NNO, NOT AT ALL> It is to illustrate a dynamic if you will. If ou will observe, one hears almost daily in forums such as these about 750,000 to 1,00,000 Arabs who were ?FROCED to flee their homes due to Zionist ethnic cleansing and th4e such.

In reality, as UNESCO tells us, the numbers did not exceeed 450,000 and almost all of them fled voluntarily at the behest of their own fellow Arabs. Some though decded to stay put and sign non-aggression pacts and the descendants of those Arabs now constitute the body of the 2.2. Israeli-Arabs.

Were Israel to engage in ethnic cleansing do you really think it would have 2.2 millioin citizens who are fully Arab?

For full disclosure: There were elss than 13 Arab villages near the Egyptian border that WERE cleansed in the Suez Era. Our soldiers rolled in armed, threatened the residents with 30 minutes to grab their belongings, and bussed them to the Egytian border, which at the time was Gaza, and told them to run without looking back.

Said villages WERE home to several terrorist attacks but that does not justify any sudh action in my eyeys. Mind you Israel is not perfect but nothing, nothing as it is depicted in the so called Activist or Leftist Media.

As for your last Gurion Journal exscerpt, please do us both a favour and rely on a version not provided by a propaganda website. You will find yourself more than a bit surprised.

 

[Spion]

almost all of them fled voluntarily at the behest of their own fellow Arabs.

Yep, these people fled 'voluntarily' eh?

“During the morning [the Jews] were continually shooting down on all Arabs who moved both in Wadi Ninas and the Old City. This included completely indiscriminate and revolting machine gun fire, mortar fire and sniping on women and children sheltering in churches and attempting to get out . . . through the gates into the docks . . The 40 Royal Marine Commando who control the docks . . . sent the Arabs through in batches but there was considerable congestion outside the East Gate of hysterical Arab women and children and old people on whom the Jews opened up mercilessly with fire. Two [Royal Marine] officers were seriously wounded.” (Tactical HQ, 1st Coldstream Guards, ‘Battalion Sitrep’ 22 April 1948, 16.30hrs, PRO WO 261-297, cited in B Morris, the Birth of . . . p191)

Oh, looks like these did too . . .

“Their commander says that the [initial] order was: to take prisoner the adult males and to send the women and children to Motza. In the afternoon [of 9 April], the order was changed and became to kill all the prisoners . . . the adult males were taken to town in trucks and paraded in the city streets, then taken to the site and killed with rifle and machine gun fire. Before they [ie, the other inhabitants] were put on the trucks, the IZL and LHI men . . . took from them all the jewellery and stole their money. The behaviour towards them was especially barbaric [and included] kicks, shoves with rifle butts, spitting and cursing (people from Givat Shaul took part in the torture.)” ((‘Yavne’ [Yitzhak Levy] to Haganah Intelligence Service, 13 Apr 1948, IDFA 5254\49\\372, cited in Morris, the Birth of . . . p238)

And these people too . . .

“When the village was conquered, the villagers tried to escape and save themselves by fleeing to the fields of the [Jezreel] Valley. Forces from the nearby settlements sortied out and outflanked them. There were exchanges of fire in which several of these Arabs were killed. Other surrendered or were captured unarmed. Most were killed. And these were not gang members as was later written in [Mapam daily] Al Hamishmar, but defenceless, beaten peasants. Only members of my kibbutz [Hazore’a] took prisoners . . . Also in the village when adult males were discovered hiding hours after the end of the battle – they were killed . . . It is said there were also cases of rape, but it is possible this is only one of those made-up tales of ‘heroism’ that soldiers are prone to. Afterwards all the village’s houses and the well were blown up. . . Of the property in the houses and the farm animals left without minders, they took what they could: One took a kettle for coffee, another a horse, a third a cow . . . one may understand and justify, if they took cows from the field for Mishmar Ha’emek for example, or if soldiers who conquered the village would slaughter and fry chickens for themselves. But if every farmer from a nearby moshava [the allusion is to Yoqne’am] takes part in looting, that is nothing but theft.” (Bauer to Galili, Moshe Mann, Baruch Rabinov and Ya’akov Riftin, 14 Apr 1948, Eliezer Bauer (Be’eri) Papers. Cited in B Morris, The Birth of . . . p243)

 

[Grandma Death]

How does one go about creating a Jewish state if Jews are not the majority ethnicity?

Fire: When Jews are in minority, how could a Jewish state be stablished?": .

......your ability to consistently misquote is as questionable as your dodging, ducking, weaving, evading etc from providing solid evidence.

 

[rachamim18]

Spion: You and I both know, VERY WELL, that we have had this particular exchange no less than 3 times at last count. For the benefit of perhaps new readers and maybe some old who did not take it to heart I will; reirtate just a bit of my past proof showing how wrong you are.

"Arabs fled voluntrily...": Well, let us hear it from contemporary sources, both Arab and so caled objected foreign observers, shall we?

A) On 10/02/47 the "Association of Palestinian Jewry" issued the following release:"We will do everything in our power to maintain peace and establish a cooperattion gainful to both (Jews and Arabs). It is no0w, here and now, from Jerusalem itself, that a call must go out to the Arab nations to join forces with Jewry and the destined Jewish stateand work shoulder to shoulder for our common good , for the peace and progress of sovereign nations."

B) On 11/30/47, a single day after the Final Un PArtitition,the Yishuv (Forerunner of the Israeli Govt.) sannounced:" The main theme behind the spontaneous (Jewish) celebrations we are witnessing today is our community's desire to seek peace and its determination to achieve fruitful cooperation with the Arabs.

C) Israel's "Proclomation of Independance" was issued on 5/14/48 and says, with regard to Arab coexistence, "In the midst of wanton Arab aggression (virtually the entire Arab World delcared war on us), yet we call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equall citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions.

We extend our hand inpeace and neighbourliness to all the neighbouring states and their peoiples, and invite them to cooperate with the independant Jewish Nation for the common good of all."


So, with attamepts at peaceful coexistence almost universally offered (there were noiticable and glaring exceptions AFTER 1948 when was was firmly entrenched throught the area and I will adress it), why was it ignored instead of the so called "Wanton aggression?"

The same Partition that brought Israel into existence, that is to say the so called "Final PArtition of 11/29/47,the richest of the 30,000 odd "Palestinians" within the Mandate almost overnight left for neighbouring Arab Nations where they felt that their assets wopuld be much safer.


They were almost immediately followed by the semblance of a middle class which in reality meant small land owners and shoppe owners into the all Arab medium sized popularion centers within the Mandate , seeking it seems safety within numbers.

By 1/21/48 the "Palestine Higher Comittee"asked forcefuiily that neighbouring Arab Nations should seal their borders for all Refugees and stop issuing visas so as to stop the draining of the local Arab population.

On 1/20/48 the Yaffah (Jaffah) periodical , "Ash Sha'ab" stated: "the first of ooiur own Fifth Column consists of those whoabandon their homes and businesses and go to live elsewhere ...At the first signs of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing their burdern of the struggle." ("Ash Sha'ab," Yaffah/Jaffah, 1/30/48)

On 3/30/48 another Yaffa periodical, "As Sarih" offered the following: "(Arab villages near T. Aviv are) briinging down disgrace on us by abandoning their villages." ("As Sarih," Yaffah/Jaffah 3/30/48)

You wish to specific of particualr municipalkities and/or districts? We can do this too, again but let me ask a favour first: PLEASE download or otherwise copy this info. becayse my taking the time to type all; of t becomes tediousness.

Unlike so of the younger members with a computer education I have never learned to cut and paste so that this take quite a bit of effort.

Thanks in advance.

Let us talk of Tiberias....Before 4/19/48 HaGanah began to gain terrain around the ancient Jewish population center of Tiberias and its District. The District only had 6000 Arabs living in it but to the man, woman, and child they sought evacuation under the auspices of the UK contingent.

Then the Yishuv (forerunner to the Israeli Govt.) issued the following edict: "We did not disposses them; they themselves chose this course...LEt no citizen touch their property." (This was reported in the New York Times, in a prominent article dated 4/23/48).


I remember a favourite point of yours having beern Hafia and how the entire District which actually encompassed, whether you realise it or not, almost 3/4ths os fhte Mandate Arab Population outside of Trans-Jordan. Let us examine, once again what REALLY took place in that city and its district:

Hajj Nimer el Khattib who was the Arab National Committee chairmen in Hafia offered the following first hand observation: "(Of Arab soldiers)...they robbed individuals and homes. Life was of little value and the honour of women was defiled . This state of affairs led many (Arab) residents to leave the city under protection of British tanks."

As Fawzi al Qawukji and his "Army" advanced towards the coast early on 4/19/45, some 25000 Haifan Arabs fled for theri lives as the forces spread propaganda that Arab Airforces would soon being bombing Hafia's main Jewish Quarter on Mt. Carmel. this also caused many Jewish non-combtants to flee as well which in honesty was prbably Qawukji's primary objective in this Psych Op.

On 4/23/48 HaGanah captured Hafia . On 4/26/48 a British Police Report said: "Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives and to get to their normal lives, to get their shoppes and businesses mopen and to be asured that their lives and interests will be safe ." (Memo from Supt. of Police, Hafia, dated 4/26/48 and extremely similar to one issued on 4/29/48).

It was subsequent to this memo that Gurion personally dispatched Golda Meir to try and convince local Arab leaders to heed the govt's call and not flee as they had been doing (so much for Spion's version of the Gutrion diaries, garnered IN ENGLISH, off of partisan siters purporting to prove that Gurion was anti Arab and wanted to cleanse the nation).(related in "My Life" by Golda Meir {NY Dell;1975;pp 267-268}).

And then we have our favourite Brit of the era, do we not? Sir John Glubb Pasha, Arab lackey and commander of Jordan's Arab Legion who although seems to have held little persona allegiance to anything past his own checqueing account, does offer a rather accurate and telling view of the dynamic around Hafia city and District with which he was charged during this same relevant time period.

Rather than risk losing the post, I will post this and continue immediately on Pasha in the following post...Bet you cannot wait...

 

[rachamim18]

Spion: Hafia, Arab ?Refugees, and the Sir Pasha Glubb take on the whole affair...

"Villages were frequently abandoned even before they were threatened by the progress if war.": (Glubb speaking in a London Daily Mail interview and article dated 8/12/48).

By the end of the battle for Hafia, Glubb had evacuated almost all of the remaining 50,000 Arab residents of the cirt and districtby boat, under British guard, north onto Acre and points further terminating in Lebanese UN Campswhere most remain.

In the words of well known "Palestinian" terrorist Leila Khlaed, certainly no friend of Israel, Zionism, or even Jews despite her Marxist ramblings offers the following, and she was there at the time in question mind you since she herself was botn in and evacuated from Hafia:"The Zionists were able to snatch Hafia (my home) out from under us, particularly after Sir John Glubb PAsha , the commander of the Arab Legion of Jorrdan ordered his Hafia Regiment to Withdraw in agreement with British plans to evacuate Hafia and ensure Jewish victory.

With careful coordnation and brillant military strategy , the Zionists thought they would attain their goal with a minimum of effort and loss of life. They did.Most of the 80,000 Aran inmhabitants of Hafia left without battling to the death fir their city . Their exodus began 4/09/48." ("My People Shall Live" Leila Khaled and Edited by George Hajjar; Hodder and Stoughton; London; 1973 pp25).

I might add that this same page contains, once again the oft repeated Arab threat to"Drive the Jews (not Zionists) into the sea," soemthing which I do believe you have calkled a lie more than once.

British Delegate to the UN, Sir Alexander Cadogan told the UN on4/23/48 that "any fighting in Hafia had been provoked by continuous attacks by Arabs against Jewsa few days before and that any reports of massacarres and deportations (from Hafia at least) were erroneous." (Reported in the London Times , in an article, 4/24/48 in conjunction with UN minutes of the same date).

This same day, 4/23/48,Chairman of the Arab Higher Committee, Jamal al Husseni (yes of THAT clan)told the Un SEcurity Council that "rather ever accepting the offer of (actual and not Hudna) truce offered by HaGanah, Arabs preferred to abandon thier homes, their belongings, and everything they posseesed in the world and leave the town of Hafia."

On 4/22/48, US Consul General of Hafia, Aubrey Lippincott wrote:" (The) local mufti (of Jerusalem, al Husseini) dominated Arab leaders (and was urging) all Arabs to leave the city (of Hafia) and large numbers did so." (Foreign Relations of the United States, 1948, Volume # V, pp 838; D.C.:GPO, 1976)


Should I continue Spion?

 

[rachamim18]

Oh, and Spion, if you care at all about integrtiy you will kkindly tell the readers what Moirris has done since printing those fables: To wit he has retraced virtually everypone of those unscrupulous claims and is now a hard right Zionist pundit but of course that would not segue into your worldview so it gets let by the weay side.

Please try anD read my 2 posts and then see if you cano hold onto your view.

 

[Spion]

Oh, and Spion, if you care at all about integrtiy you will kkindly tell the readers what Moirris has done since printing those fables: To wit he has retraced virtually everypone of those unscrupulous claims and is now a hard right Zionist pundit but of course that would not segue into your worldview so it gets let by the weay side.

Please try anD read my 2 posts and then see if you cano hold onto your view.

Yes, I know full well Morris says the ethnic cleansing was not carried out thoroughly enough. But there's no denying his sources as good often eye witness accounts. They are Haganah documents and the papers and diaries of high up Zionists. Yours are mostly newspapers and books written after the event.

YOu're not convincing in the slightest.


Oh, and you mentioned Tiberias. Let's see what happened there after the British herded the Arab population (who had been under siege for some time) out . . .

"Groups of dozens of Jews walked about pillaging from the Arab houses and shops . . . The Haganah people hadn't the strength to control the mob after they themselves had given a bad example . . . [It was as if] there was a contest between the different Haganah platoons stationed in Migdal, Genossar, Yavniel, 'Ein Gev, who came in cars and boats and loaded all sorts of good [such as] refrigerators, beds, etc . . . Quite naturally the Jewish masses in Tiberias wanted to do likewise . . . Old men and women, regardless of age . . . religious [and non-religious], all are busy with robbery . . . Shame covers my face." Yosef Nahmani, diary, 21/22 April 1948 (B Morris, the Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, p 185)

 

[Random]

As for it being purely coincidental that the Arabs involved being members of Islam, study its history and dogma. Theologically they can never coexist with Israel because of the concept of a land having been ruled even for one minute by Muslims, must forevermore remain Islamic.

Why isn't there an armed movement to re-take Andalucia, then?

 

[Andy the Don]

Why isn't there an armed movement to re-take Andalucia, then?

Al-Q has often mentioned Andalusia as the Western point of its dream for a single Islamic Caliphate stretching from Spain in the west to Indonesia in the east.

 

[Random]

Al-Q has often mentioned Andalusia as the Western point of its dream for a single Islamic Caliphate stretching from Spain in the west to Indonesia in the east.

Words on the internet do not an armed movement make. The point is, that what makes most people act is suffering in the here and now, not some theoretical point about 'Islamic land'.

 

[rachamim18]

Spion: I admire you tenacity in the face of truth but here is the thing, Morris, who by the way does not say "ethnic cleansing waws not thorough enough," but rather says it did not take place insitituionally and even has backed away from saying it took place in more than a couple of abberrations "was not there" EITHER>

hie eyewitness reports? Try reading my quotes agin and see what you think. Khlaed was not there? Glubb was not there? Members for the Arab Committees oin charge of that event for that district were not there?

The reporters from Time, Mail, Times, and many Arab papers were not there? Come on, you cannot be serious. So you are wrong, it is not a crime but to stand there and act as if you really do not see it is a bit worrisome to say the least.


Then you qyuote Morris on what Jews did in Tiberias, a place and time he was not involved iin, not to mnetion as since retracted. Maybe you just glanced at my posts. If you pay close attention you will see the express Yishuv ordfer dealing with just that issue. Armed Jewish soliders were deployed to prevent any looting or untoiward behavior, so your Morris story is nonsense.

I respect Morris, at least he was man enough to admit he made too many mistakes, but without any documentary evidence to corroborate his original claims, how could you or anyone else latch ont it, save out of desperation and blind faith in propaganda?

And if you try and claim the Nahmani Diary is anything other than utter BS, you and i have discussed it before. It is nonsense and even Morris poo poohed it when he had his epiphany and did the 360 politcally.

It is not about "ME" being convincing at all. I presented you with maybe 30 contemporary (to the event) eyewitness accounts, and in fact have literally hundreds more, and yet you still hold onto one piece of proof that even the author (of it) has basically said it was complete bollocks.

In the end itt is your life and your mind, if you are that willfully stubborn to deny dozens of voices over one who has already admitted he no longer believes what he wrote (mnost of it anyway), then so be it. It is your life.

 

[Spion]

And if you try and claim the Nahmani Diary is anything other than utter BS, you and i have discussed it before. It is nonsense and even Morris poo poohed it when he had his epiphany and did the 360 politcally.

Really, where and when did he do this? Reference please

 

[Spion]

You don't seem to have a clue what Morris has actually said:

"The radical Israeli historian who did more than any other to force his country to face up to its responsibility for the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in the 1948 war now believes the Middle East might be at peace if David Ben-Gurion had expelled all the Palestinians.

In an about-turn that will horrify his former Liberal allies, Benny Morris argues in the Guardian that "perhaps, had [Ben-Gurion] gone the whole hog, today's Middle East would be a healthier, less violent place, with a Jewish state between Jordan and the Mediterranean and a Palestinian Arab state in Transjordan". He adds: "Perhaps it was the very indecisiveness of the geographic and demographic outcome of 1948 that underlies the persisting tragedy of Palestine.""

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/oct/03/israel2

 

[rachamim18]

Spion: silly me, now I have toi dig again. I wonder though, if I agree to do it, and produce what I said, will you stop flaunting that same pack of lies (Nachmani Diary)?

I have asked you maybe 10 times to read Gurion in an approved English translation and you still have obviously not done it, so why should I bother? If you givew me your word (for what it's worth), then I shall dig. Looking soemthing up just for the sake of it, somethine I and most Israelis already know to be true, would seeem futile unless someone really would beneifit. Let me know.

As for me not knowing what Morris said, perhaps you should reread my post. I said he did a 360. Now I am always the first to admiot that I am far freom a scholar of the English language but I would imagine that what your last post said was well represented in my words on "360."

In fact, Morris made a name for himself as a libreal and then recanted and admitted that much of what he had originally posited had in fact been nonsense. The questioon that haunts him, at home at least, is whether or not he spewed that bile with some ulterior motive, a reason other than plain old ignorance of the subject matter since he evidently misstated large portions of both Nachmani and Gurion in English, directed towards English speaking audiences.

SOME SAY that he only had his epiphany when he got caught with his literary poants down around his ankles, caught in his misrepresentations in order to salvage what he could of his reputation. A refromed liberal is loved more than a laying liberal in other words.


Anyway, let me know.

 

[Spion]

he evidently misstated large portions of both Nachmani and Gurion in English, directed towards English speaking audiences.

Show us an article in the real world that actually proves this. Show us it's not just in your head. Can you do that?

 

[editor]

Editor: Get rea;.

Here he is!

Now what?