Steering cycles: bikes vs. trikes

[beesonthewhatnow]

You can get those pieces of shit on two wheels very easily. I saw a bloke roll one at Oulton. He was able to take the remaining bits home in a Tesco bag.

Well yeah, but at a far greater speed than if the wheels were the other way round.

 

[Spymaster]

Yes, exactly.

To be fair probably somewhat crossed wires on this since, as sheldon says, some bikers do bang on about as a specific technique rather than just an element of how bikes turn.

That Sheldon fella's talking through his hat. Countersteering is no big deal at all but it IS how bikes turn. It's part of why kids fall off them so frequently when they're learning to ride because the initial movement is counter-intuitive and also the reason why it comes as a surprise to a lot of people to learn that all the time they've been riding they've momentarily steered left to turn right and vice versa. Motorcyclists don't 'make a big deal about it' at all. It's just that they're usually far more switched-on about what they're doing than cyclists are and therefore understand it better.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Motorcyclists always seem quite keen to think that they have some kind of special skills. They don't. They just sit on a very heavy version of a bicycle, and are too lazy to pedal.

We evidently tend to be far more knowledgeable about how bikes work.

 

[Athos]

Motorcyclists always seem quite keen to think that they have some kind of special skills. They don't. They just sit on a very heavy version of a bicycle, and are too lazy to pedal.

They do have to meet some objective standards though e.g. CBT, Motorcycle Theory Test, Modules 1&2 of the full license test. Whereas most five year olds who've learned to ride are as 'qualified' as most cyclists will ever be.

 

[maomao]

There's three of the twats on the thread now. Enough for an episode of Top Gear.

 

[Spymaster]

There's three of the twats on the thread now. Enough for an episode of Top Gear.

I make it 6.

2 episodes.

 

[teuchter]

They do have to meet some objective standards though e.g. CBT, Motorcycle Theory Test, Modules 1&2 of the full license test. Whereas most five year olds who've learned to ride are as 'qualified' as most cyclists will ever be.

Why are they constantly crashing, then?

 

[maomao]

I make it 6.

2 episodes.

I'm not counting posters whose content is vaguely interesting or informative.

 

[Athos]

Why are they constantly crashing, then?

Because it's intrinsically more dangerous than, say, driving a car (which is more stable), or riding a pushbike (which is much slower).

 

[Saul Goodman]

Because it's intrinsically more dangerous than, say, driving a car (which is more stable), or riding a pushbike (which is much slower).

He's not very good at physics.

 

[Cid]

That Sheldon fella's talking through his hat. Countersteering is no big deal at all but it IS how bikes turn. It's part of why kids fall off them so frequently when they're learning to ride because the initial movement is counter-intuitive and also the reason why it comes as a surprise to a lot of people to learn that all the time they've been riding they've momentarily steered left to turn right and vice versa. Motorcyclists don't 'make a big deal about it' at all. It's just that they're usually far more switched-on about what they're doing than cyclists are and therefore understand it better.

Isn’t that what he said? I mean other than the motorcycle bit obviously.

 

[Spymaster]

Isn’t that what he said? I mean other than the motorcycle bit obviously.

Yes. It's the motorcycle bit that I was responding to.

 

[Cid]

Because it's intrinsically more dangerous than, say, driving a car (which is more stable), or riding a pushbike (which is much slower).

It is, but spend any time in any national park with nice roads and it becomes rapidly apparent that a huge part of the risk is being a massive bellend.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Thing is, countersteering is utterly irrelevant to anyone riding a bicycle. You don’t have to think about it, or know it’s happening. You just learn to ride a bike, then after that it’s merely an interesting bit of physics.

 

[Spymaster]

Thing is, countersteering is utterly irrelevant to anyone riding a bicycle.

It is however, highly relevant to the OP.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

But basically you don't really need to worry about it, it happens. Just look where you need to go.

Thing is, countersteering is utterly irrelevant to anyone riding a bicycle. You don’t have to think about it, or know it’s happening. You just learn to ride a bike, then after that it’s merely an interesting bit of physics.

Yep. The more you think about it the more likely you are to mess up. Especially true mountain biking, if you worry too much about what's right in front of you rather than just going for it you nearly always end up having to put a foot down or coming off.

 

[Crispy]

When you're going in a straight line, gravity pulls you down.
This is no problem on a bike because this force is in line with the wheels.
This is no problem on a trike because this force is between the wheelbase.

When you start turning, centripital force starts pushing you sideways
This is a problem on an upright bike because the force is now out of line with the wheels
This only becomes a problem on a trike when the force becomes large enough to push it outside the wheelbase.

If the rider doesn't lean, they fall over.

The bike rider has to lean exactly the right amount to keep the force in line with the wheels.
The trike rider has to lean enough to keep the force within the wheelbase

The leaning (and countersteering on a bike) are not intuitive and are all part of learning to ride a (x)ike.
It's probably harder on a trike because you get a "false sense of stability" at low speeds. Bike riders have to be adjusting for lean all the time
This is why it's foolish to teach children to ride with stabilisers.

The arrangement of brakes has no effect on this phenomenon. If the brakes slow the (x)ike down, then they are doing their job.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

When you're going in a straight line, gravity pulls you down.
This is no problem on a bike because this force is in line with the wheels.
This is no problem on a trike because this force is between the wheelbase.

When you start turning, centripital force starts pushing you sideways
This is a problem on an upright bike because the force is now out of line with the wheels
This only becomes on a trike when the force becomes large enough to push it outside the wheelbase.

If the rider doesn't lean, they fall over.

The bike rider has to lean exactly the right amount to keep the force in line with the wheels.
The trike rider has to lean enough to keep the force within the wheelbase

The leaning (and countersteering on a bike) are not intuitive and are all part of learning to ride a (x)ike.

The arrangement of brakes has no effect on this phenomenon. If the brakes slow the (x)ike down, then they are doing their job.

View attachment 227822

Liking the happy/sad faces

 

[klang]

 

[Athos]

It is, but spend any time in any national park with nice roads and it becomes rapidly apparent that a huge part of the risk is being a massive bellend.

From what I see, motorcyclists are generally more attentive and have better control than car drivers or cyclists, but there's still a significant number who ride like knobs, which puts them a great risk (especially since the margins of error are so much smaller and the consequences of any crash likely to be much higher).

 

[Cid]

From what I see, motorcyclists are generally more attentive and have better control than car drivers or cyclists, but there's still a significant number who ride like knobs, which puts them a great risk (especially since the margins of error are so much smaller and the consequences of any crash likely to be much higher).

I dunno, I’d tend not to lean either way in terms of average riders. You do get that strain of particularly responsible rider on touring bike, but yeah. They seem just as mixed as any other discipline from what I see... but living near the peaks, and having lived near Dartmoor the idiots become considerably more prominent.

Also, sure, you can ride a pedal bike with no training. You can ride a motorbike up to 60mph with a couple of hours of riding that are nearly impossible to fuck up.

 

[T & P]

Motorcyclists always seem quite keen to think that they have some kind of special skills. They don't. They just sit on a very heavy version of a bicycle, and are too lazy to pedal.

And yet, even with those much 'heavier versions of a bicycle', they wobble far less at low speeds than the overwhelming majoirty of cyclists.

As for being lazy, not everyone has a leasurly 3.5 mile commute to work.

 

[kalidarkone]

Mation , you might have answered this....but can you,/have you ever ridden a bicycle?

I find it hard to think about how I do things ive been doing for a long time and that are now intuitive. Also I learn better by doing and experiencing.

 

[Saul Goodman]

And yet, even with those much 'heavier versions of a bicycle', they wobble far less at low speeds than the overwhelming majoirty of cyclists.

As for being lazy, not everyone has a leasurly 3.5 mile commute to work.

He's just trolling

 

[Crispy]

And yet, even with those much 'heavier versions of a bicycle', they wobble far less at low speeds than the overwhelming majoirty of cyclists.

This is because a) motorbikes have more inertia and b) the act of pedalling a bicycle moves your center of gravity

 

[gentlegreen]

They do have to meet some objective standards though e.g. CBT, Motorcycle Theory Test, Modules 1&2 of the full license test. Whereas most five year olds who've learned to ride are as 'qualified' as most cyclists will ever be.

I never had lessons and my motorcycle test in 1980 and car test in 1990 were basically "don't fall off / crash into anything", but I see lots of younger people driving like twats...

 

[gentlegreen]

All bets are off cycling home tonight against 50MPH winds as I may have mild labyrinthitis

 

[Mation]

When you're going in a straight line, gravity pulls you down.
This is no problem on a bike because this force is in line with the wheels.
This is no problem on a trike because this force is between the wheelbase.

When you start turning, centripital force starts pushing you sideways
This is a problem on an upright bike because the force is now out of line with the wheels
This only becomes a problem on a trike when the force becomes large enough to push it outside the wheelbase.

If the rider doesn't lean, they fall over.

The bike rider has to lean exactly the right amount to keep the force in line with the wheels.
The trike rider has to lean enough to keep the force within the wheelbase

The leaning (and countersteering on a bike) are not intuitive and are all part of learning to ride a (x)ike.
It's probably harder on a trike because you get a "false sense of stability" at low speeds. Bike riders have to be adjusting for lean all the time
This is why it's foolish to teach children to ride with stabilisers.

The arrangement of brakes has no effect on this phenomenon. If the brakes slow the (x)ike down, then they are doing their job.

View attachment 227822

Loving the explanation and the graphics!

Bearing in mind that I have silly putty in my head instead of brain cells when it comes to relating words about direction to actual sense of direction, I've had trouble turning left on a trike with it tipping to the right (out), unless leaning to the left. Is that what the trike pics show?

 

[Crispy]

Loving the explanation and the graphics!

Bearing in mind that I have silly putty in my head instead of brain cells when it comes to relating words about direction to actual sense of direction, I've had trouble turning left on a trike with it tipping to the right (out), unless leaning to the left. Is that what the trike pics show?

Correct

 

[Mation]

Mation , you might have answered this....but can you,/have you ever ridden a bicycle?

I find it hard to think about how I do things ive been doing for a long time and that are now intuitive. Also I learn better by doing and experiencing.

I can ride a bike if you give me about 100 metres in which to wobble about from side to side and then only do so with gritted teeth and an alarmed look on my face, as I fail to compute how to deal with the fast impending hazard. It's not pretty.