Steering cycles: bikes vs. trikes

[Mation]

I'm not a cyclist, but cycle-curious. Please help me understand.

You're on a completely flat road (no camber; imaginary road-wide spirit level says pancake). You want to turn left.

On a bike you -what?- lean left? On a trike you steer left with the handlebars (plus lean left to stop yourself tipping over)?

Why?

And, more realistically, when there is a camber, why?

(Apologies if these are daft questions. I suspect it's hard to comprehend non-cyclists' confusion if you're a life-long balancer! )

 

[Saul Goodman]

Countersteering... look it up.

 

[StoneRoad]

Mation It is very difficult to describe something that a 'bike rider does automatically, almost on autopilot, as you go down the road. But I'll do my best ...

On a moving bike (m/bike) slight turn of the 'bars and more leaning into the turn, straighten up by leaning the other way and centring the 'bars.
If you have your point of balance right, slowly swaying your head and shoulders from side to side will get your bike weaving to match.
(which is why a pillion rider needs to stay sitting still and in line with the driver ... as I've found out the hard way)

For a trike / or with a sidecar - only turn the 'bars, leaning is not actually required at normal (non-racing) speeds and angles of turn.

 

[weepiper]

A bicycle stays upright in motion through gyroscopic force. If you just turn the bars without shifting your weight you'll crash. A trike stays upright without gyroscopic force so if you just lean without turning the bars it doesn't steer. I find a normal trike (one wheel at the front) almost impossible to ride because it doesn't steer with your weight.

 

[Orang Utan]

 

[DownwardDog]

And on motorbikes you turn the bars left to go right.

 

[Saul Goodman]

A bicycle stays upright in motion through gyroscopic force. If you just turn the bars without shifting your weight you'll crash. A trike stays upright without gyroscopic force so if you just lean without turning the bars it doesn't steer. I find a normal trike (one wheel at the front) almost impossible to ride because it doesn't steer with your weight.

I expected better from you, with you being into bikes..
You never have to shift your weight on a bike. You start with a slight turn in the opposite direction. Basically, if you want to turn right, you push forward on the right bar, effectively turning left, then countersteer accordingly to make the turn. If you turn right, the bike drops to the left and initiates a left turn, then you countersteer to the right to balance the bike in the turn. If you want to tighten the turn, you turn in the opposite direction to the bend, so if you're taking a right turn and want to tighten the turn, you push forward on the right bar, effectively turning you left, and if you want to straighten the turn, you do the opposite. Most bike riders don't even know they're doing it, but they are, because you can't (properly) get round a corner without it (at anything much more than walking pace).

Here's a video about countersteering. It explains how all the myths of shifting weight are complete bollocks.

 

[weepiper]

I expected better from you, with you being into bikes..
You never have to shift your weight on a bike. You start with a slight turn in the opposite direction. Basically, if you want to turn right, you push forward on the right bar, effectively turning left, then countersteer accordingly to make the turn. If you turn right, the bike drops to the left and initiates a left turn, then you countersteer to the right to balance the bike in the turn. If you want to tighten the turn, you you turn in the opposite direction to the bend, so if you're taking a right turn and want to tighten the turn, you push forward on the right bar, effectively turning you left, and if you want to straighten the turn, you do the opposite. Most bike riders don't even know they're doing it, but they are, because you can't (properly) get round a corner without it (at anything much more than walking pace).

Here's a video about countersteering. It explains how all the myths of shifting weight are complete bollocks.

I take it you can't ride no hands then.

 

[Spymaster]

I take it you can't ride no hands then.

That's a different method than used with bars. Saul's right. Left turns are initiated with right pressure and vice versa. That causes the front end to drop away and the lean in the direction you're turning with your body weight.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I take it you can't ride no hands then.

Yes, I can, on a bike with pedals or engine, but it doesn't alter the fact.

That's a different method than used with bars. Saul's right. Left turns are initiated with right pressure and vice versa. That causes the front end to drop away and the lean in the direction you're turning with your body weight.

It's not so much that it's a different method. If you lean left, the bars will actually (initially) turn right, which initiates the turn, but you can't control the turn even remotely, compared to countersteering..
The thing is, you can't ride a bike without countersteering, and I'm surprised that someone in the trade isn't aware of this. For shits and giggles, next time you're out on your bike, weepiper, when you want to turn right, take your hands off the bars and with one finger, apply forward pressure to the right bar (effectively turning left), and don't shift your weight at all... The bike will turn right.

 

[weepiper]

Ugh. Thanks for the patronising. I'm out.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Ugh. Thanks for the patronising. I'm out.

I do apologise for the patronising. It was retaliation for your dig about my old mountain bike, but the fact remains, and I know you're going to try it (and think 'fuck, he's right) tomorrow

 

[teuchter]

No, weepiper is right, you can do it without touching the handlebars, by shifting the balance of the bike. Countersteering is just another method of doing that.

 

[Saul Goodman]

No, weepiper is right, you can do it without touching the handlebars, by shifting the balance of the bike. Countersteering is just another method of doing that.

Ooh, you taking bollocks is a total surprise!

 

[teuchter]

You never have to shift your weight on a bike.

Going to quote this complete nonsense for posterity in case there's an attempt to edit it out.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Going to quote this complete nonsense for posterity in case there's an attempt to edit it out.

There will never be an attempt to edit it. It's not my fault you're a dunce. (I actually thought you were a high-functioning troll, but it seems not).

 

[Mation]

I have understood not a word. Nice to see we're fighting already, though!

Can someone explain things to me in baby language, pls?

 

[Saul Goodman]

I have understood not a word. Nice to see we're fighting already, though!

Can someone explain things to me in baby language, pls?

Turn right = turn left, then adjust your handlebars to suit the bend.

 

[Mation]

Mation It is very difficult to describe something that a 'bike rider does automatically, almost on autopilot, as you go down the road. But I'll do my best ...

On a moving bike (m/bike) slight turn of the 'bars and more leaning into the turn, straighten up by leaning the other way and centring the 'bars.
If you have your point of balance right, slowly swaying your head and shoulders from side to side will get your bike weaving to match.
(which is why a pillion rider needs to stay sitting still and in line with the driver ... as I've found out the hard way)

For a trike / or with a sidecar - only turn the 'bars, leaning is not actually required at normal (non-racing) speeds and angles of turn.

I'm talking about pedal powered cycles ... Are you?

A bicycle stays upright in motion through gyroscopic force. If you just turn the bars without shifting your weight you'll crash.

Why?

A trike stays upright without gyroscopic force so if you just lean without turning the bars it doesn't steer. I find a normal trike (one wheel at the front) almost impossible to ride because it doesn't steer with your weight.

Yes, I've seen videos of bike riders trying to steer trikes and leaning over while keeping the handlebars straight and it not doing what they want.

If you turn the handlebars of a trike to left, why might the trike tip to the right?

 

[Saul Goodman]

If you turn the handlebars of a trike to left, why might the trike tip to the right?

Centrifugal force vs COG. The same doesn't apply to two wheels. Well it does but you lean the bike to compensate/counter the centrifugal force, and the difference is taken up by the lateral grip of the tyres.

 

[Mation]

Centrifugal force vs COG. The same doesn't apply to two wheels. Well it does but you lean the bike to compensate/counter the centrifugal force, and the difference is taken up by the lateral grip of the tyres.

Not basic enough.

The kind of explanation I need is:

When you're going [this way] the wheels are going [whatever]. So when you turn the handlebars to the left [such and such] happens that effects a left turn, because [description of what, how and why they do what they do, rather than the succinct name for all of that].

Can anyone describe what happens? I think to understand it, I need to be able to picture it.

 

[gentlegreen]

I ride my push bike like Barry Sheene.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Not basic enough.

The kind of explanation I need is:

When you're going [this way] the wheels are going [whatever]. So when you turn the handlebars to the left [such and such] happens that effects a left turn, because [description of what, how and why they do what they do, rather than the succinct name for all of that].

Can anyone describe what happens? I think to understand it, I need to be able to picture it.

This should explain it all. The probably a lot of this info you won't need for pedal bikes but the exact same rules apply to motorbikes and pedal bikes. It's actually pretty basic physics.

 

[Cid]

Here is a video that lasts a minute, rather than 1.5 hours.



But basically you don't really need to worry about it, it happens. Just look where you need to go.

 

[gentlegreen]

I'm probably going to fall off my bike today thinking about how I ride it

At two places each day on the way home, I often do what I think of as a "ballerina turn" - where I know I'm going to accelerate thanks to the law of conservation of angular momentum.

... or at least it feels that way...

 

[DownwardDog]

I ride my push bike like Barry Sheene.

Countersteering is more applicable on motorbikes but is has its place in cycling. It's good for evasive maneuvers at high speed.

 

[gentlegreen]

Tricycles and quads without differential drive though - makes my head hurt ...

 

[a_chap]

Mation
For a trike / or with a sidecar - only turn the 'bars, leaning is not actually required at normal (non-racing) speeds and angles of turn.

At speed, trike riders do indeed lean during cornering.

 

[Mation]

Here is a video that lasts a minute, rather than 1.5 hours.

Thank you! That's exactly what I was after, re bikes

Now I need the equivalent for (pedal) trikes...

I'm probably going to fall off my bike today thinking about how I ride it

Soz

 

[Mation]

At speed, trike riders do indeed lean during cornering.

Why? What would happen if they didn't?