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Starbucks coming to Brixton

Johnny Canuck3 said:
I've read your quote carefully. I can't find the instances of lawbreaking that you're referring to.
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Can't you read?

A coffee shop which opened in Brighton without planning permission has been ordered to stop operating as a cafe.

Brighton and Hove City Council said it had served an enforcement notice on the Starbucks store in St James's Street, which takes effect from 9 January.

Starbucks will be allowed to sell takeaway coffee and sandwiches, but they cannot be consumed inside.

The shop opened in May even though it had not received planning permission to use the site as a cafe or restaurant.

Starbucks will have to take out all the seats and tables from the shop.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/sussex/7766582.stm
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editor said:
Can't you read?
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Yes I can. I just don't read selectively, ignoring those parts that are at variance with what I think.

Starbucks has argued that "Under current planning law, there is no official classification of coffee shops. Starbucks therefore encounters the difficult scenario whereby local authorities interpret the guidance in different ways. In some instances, coffee shops operate under A1 permission, some as mixed use A1/A3 and some as A3".[118]
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Meaning that as a result, it's the position of starbucks that they don't need that particular permission. Resulting in...

St
arbucks appealed the decision by claiming it was a retail store selling bags of coffee, mugs and sandwiches,
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The matter obviously wasn't cut and dried because Starbucks gained...

a six month extension
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The local council still wasn't happy, but the matter wasn't conclusively decided at that point because a...

public inquiry is due to be held on 10 June 2009
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Johnny Canuck3 said:
It appears to be the popular but uninformed interpretation of what's going on, by people unfamiliar with the standard practices of businesses of all sorts, when it comes to zoning applications, variances etc.
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Wow, I admire your perseverance JC3, I can see how you achieved such a high post count!

Reaching the number of the beast suggests to me it's time for me to bow out. Good luck everyone....:)
 
They broke planning laws, Johhny. That's why they were served an enforcement notice. You don't get them unless you do something wrong.
 
Shitty coffee and the thin end of the wedge.

Generic Britain is a godawful place. Brixton is already half the way there, but there's still just enough independent (and in many cases, quite unique) stuff to hold back the tide.

No matter how 'small' this starbucks might be, it's a step in the wrong direction imho.

(But of course, if they took the M&S away, I'd be pissed off. So yep, it's subjective.)
 
Johnny Canuck3 said:
We had a similar mini-controversy when Starbucks said it was going to open an outlet on Commercial Drive. Commercial Drive is a lot of things. It's ground zero for the italian coffee houses. It's the center for a lot of alternative lifestlye type things, eg, a pitched battle between the owner of Joes, a coffee place, and the lesbian community who liked to hang there. Joe booted out two women for making out - he's a conservative Portuguese guy. The lesbians camped outside the store and boycotted it for months. It was a cause celebre.

Eventually, everybody kissed and made up. :D and lesbians can once again be seen drinking coffee in Joes. :) They make good coffee there, too.


So into this milieu, Starbucks wanted to go. The reaction was sort of like you people's. Howls of outrage. To make a long story short, the Starbucks opened, some people go there, and many many more continue to go to the italian and portuguese places. Lesbians continue to go to Joes. Nothing changed much at all.
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"you people's"
:facepalm:


I feel embarrassed for you.
 
Johnny Canuck3 said:
It appears to be the popular but uninformed interpretation of what's going on, by people unfamiliar with the standard practices of businesses of all sorts, when it comes to zoning applications, variances etc.
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So what is your knowledge of British planning law?

I deal with planning applications and the local authorities that deal with them as part of my day-to-day work.

I know that companies and individuals sometimes knowingly do stuff which they do not have planning permission for.

I know that planning authorities often fail to enforce stuff and that people sometimes get away with it.

I know that there exist 'planning consultants' whose role is to know the minutea of the planning system and the legal aspects of it, and use this to help increase the chances of planning permission being granted including in cases where retrospective permission is being sought.

I know that planning consultants are expensive to employ and that well-funded companies have, well, more funds.

I know that many local authorities (including Lambeth) are not keen to get tied up in expensive disputes and appear to prefer quibbling with householders over the details of their rear extensions than taking meaningful action against, say, damage being done to buildings within a conservation area and on a main thoroughfare.

Those are some of the things I know, anyway.
 
teuchter said:
So what is your knowledge of British planning law?

I deal with planning applications and the local authorities that deal with them as part of my day-to-day work.

I know that companies and individuals sometimes knowingly do stuff which they do not have planning permission for.

I know that planning authorities often fail to enforce stuff and that people sometimes get away with it.

I know that there exist 'planning consultants' whose role is to know the minutea of the planning system and the legal aspects of it, and use this to help increase the chances of planning permission being granted including in cases where retrospective permission is being sought.

I know that planning consultants are expensive to employ and that well-funded companies have, well, more funds.

I know that many local authorities (including Lambeth) are not keen to get tied up in expensive disputes and appear to prefer quibbling with householders over the details of their rear extensions than taking meaningful action against, say, damage being done to buildings within a conservation area and on a main thoroughfare.

Those are some of the things I know, anyway.
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So what you know, is that planning is such big business that consulting companies exist to help organizations skate through the planning process with the eye on the main prize - establishment of a premises no matter what.

In other words, what Starbucks did, happens all the time, with consultant assistance, even. The only difference is that because of the 'Starbucks Stigma', they get lots of publicity when they do it, followed by the requisite howls of outrage and 'it just ain't right!:mad:'
 
As far as Starbucks and "people's" discomfort about it moving into Brixton is concerned:

I think to some extent it's regarded as a symptom rather than, or as well as, a cause - it's indicative of a certain market (that Starbucks have presumably indentified as existing) and demographic. It will attract the people who don't mind paying a bit more for the convenience of the tube station location. Maybe the extra cost is part of what attracts them to the brand in the first place. They aren't bothered about chain stores predominating and won't make any active effort to support independent and locally run businesses. People who live in and like Brixton because of all the opposite things to that stuff don't like to see signs of it becoming more predominant.

The troller will try the usual thing of depicting this as the middle-class do-gooders sneering at the common folk eating in KFC and shopping in Foot Locker and engaging in their other mass consumer pursuits, but it's a bit different with Starbucks.

If anything Starbucks is a marker on the front line of a quiet war between two different brands of yuppie; one who is in Brixton really just because they can afford it and it happens to be convenient for work, and one who is here because they actually enjoy Brixton and its individuality compared with many other parts of London. Well of course it's not as simple as that and I'm sort of just saying that to wind people up a bit but perhaps you see what I am getting at.
 
teuchter said:
I think to some extent it's regarded as a symptom rather than, or as well as, a cause - it's indicative of a certain market (that Starbucks have presumably indentified as existing) and demographic. It will attract the people who don't mind paying a bit more for the convenience of the tube station location. Maybe the extra cost is part of what attracts them to the brand in the first place. They aren't bothered about chain stores predominating and won't make any active effort to support independent and locally run businesses. People who live in and like Brixton because of all the opposite things to that stuff don't like to see signs of it becoming more predominant..
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A plurality lives in any city, meaning people of different tastes and likes. If the people you describe above live in Brixton, then they will go to the Starbucks.

Your particular tastes and predilections do not take precedence over theirs. You might look down your nose at them as yuppified wage slaves devoid of taste, but their rights are equal to yours nonetheless.

You are of course free to complain and predict doom as much as you'd like, but if those who don't mind or are in favour of change outnumber you, then the change will happen whether you like it or not. It's one of the perils of living in a democracy.
 
Johnny Canuck3 said:
So what you know, is that planning is such big business that consulting companies exist to help organizations skate through the planning process with the eye on the main prize - establishment of a premises no matter what.

In other words, what Starbucks did, happens all the time, with consultant assistance, even. The only difference is that because of the 'Starbucks Stigma', they get lots of publicity when they do it, followed by the requisite howls of outrage and 'it just ain't right!:mad:'
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No, because Starbucks are a large company, and when they move into a new area, they are typically competing with small businesses who don't have the resources to compete on equal terms. What is so strange about people being unhappy with that? Who benefits from the opening of a Starbucks, other than Starbucks themselves?

The same objections are frequently raised when, for example, Tesco or one of the other big supermarkets move in.
 
If a vote had been put on U75 that carried the force of law, there'd likely be no Olympics happening there in 2012, but that's going to occur also.
 
teuchter said:
No, because Starbucks are a large company, and when they move into a new area, they are typically competing with small businesses who don't have the resources to compete on equal terms.
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To repeat.


Their product is shit.



Scottish people are turning their backs on Starbucks.



Here, more starbucks meant more people liking and drinking coffee, which meant more business for other independent coffee houses.
 
Johnny Canuck3 said:
A plurality lives in any city, meaning people of different tastes and likes. If the people you describe above live in Brixton, then they will go to the Starbucks.

Your particular tastes and predilections do not take precedence over theirs. You might look down your nose at them as yuppified wage slaves devoid of taste, but their rights are equal to yours nonetheless.

You are of course free to complain and predict doom as much as you'd like, but if those who don't mind or are in favour of change outnumber you, then the change will happen whether you like it or not. It's one of the perils of living in a democracy.
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You're a master of stating the obvious as if there is some kind of wisdom being imparted.

None of the above explains why you are making such a big deal about people (mainly people who live in Brixton) expressing their feelings about the arrival of Starbucks, and what it may or may not represent.
 
teuchter said:
The same objections are frequently raised when, for example, Tesco or one of the other big supermarkets move in.
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There are a lot of replies to be made to that.

One is: they're all capitalists, in business to make money. Sam Walton started out as a small businessman. Starbucks started out with one coffee shop.

They were talented and successful, and thrived. Many of your small businesspeople would be Sam Walton if they could, but things didn't work out that way.

Why so much grief when one capitalist bests another?
 
teuchter said:
You're a master of stating the obvious as if there is some kind of wisdom being imparted.

None of the above explains why you are making such a big deal about people (mainly people who live in Brixton) expressing their feelings about the arrival of Starbucks, and what it may or may not represent.
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This is a discussion forum. Of course people can state their opinions.

It's just my opinion that a lot of those opinions, are based on hysteria. :p
 
Johnny Canuck3 said:
To repeat.


Their product is shit.



Scottish people are turning their backs on Starbucks.



Here, more starbucks meant more people liking and drinking coffee, which meant more business for other independent coffee houses.
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The west coast of N America in the 16th century or whenever Starbucks brought the marvels of coffee to that market is not the same as Brixton in 2010 and I don't see why you bother making the comparison.

Scottish people are of course known for their refined tastes and recognition of value for money. I will naturally be delighted if the residents of Brixton measure up to such high standards even in the slightest.
 
teuchter said:
Scottish people are of course known for their refined tastes and recognition of value for money. I will naturally be delighted if the residents of Brixton measure up to such high standards even in the slightest.
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But you don't want to take the chance that they might make a mistake, so you want to scotch the idea from the outset. For safety's sake. :p
 
Johnny Canuck3 said:
There are a lot of replies to be made to that.

One is: they're all capitalists, in business to make money. Sam Walton started out as a small businessman. Starbucks started out with one coffee shop.

They were talented and successful, and thrived. Many of your small businesspeople would be Sam Walton if they could, but things didn't work out that way.

Why so much grief when one capitalist bests another?
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It's dead simple: one capitalist has a greater interest in making Brixton a better place than the other.
 
Johnny Canuck3 said:
Starbucks plans Brixton outlet: local crusties howl in fear horror and outrage.
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Except it's not just crusties in Brixton though, is it? There's countless mainstream US media commentary on the same lines... from movies and TV to satirical publications like the Onion.

So it's not just a few fiesty urbanites being picky.
 
paolo999 said:
Except it's not just crusties in Brixton though, is it? There's countless mainstream US media commentary on the same lines... from movies and TV to satirical publications like the Onion.

So it's not just a few fiesty urbanites being picky.
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One thing starbucks does, is market research. That means they're pretty sure already that they're going to make money there.

So in spite of all the whinging, it seems that a healthy percentage of the population likes starbucks.
 
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