Sporting dominance

[marty21]

I remember the all-conquering Liverpool team of the 70s/80s, it did get dull seeing them romp home again and again - with the odd interuption, Everton , Arsenal, Notts Forest, Aston Villa - so I was pleased they had the inevitable decline - similar with Man U from the 90s to about 10 years ago - I guess Liverpool just handed over the baton to them - and now Man U seem to have handed that baton to Citeh - I'd prefer closer races, but it's more about the money now than it was in the 70s/80s/90s.

Scottish football doesn't get that exciting, just 2 clubs win in - (or one club atm) you have to go back to the 80s to get Aberdeen and Dundee Utd taking a title or two.

Same in Germany - always Bayern - they even managed to scramble it this year when they struggled.

Tennis - the Big 4 (mostly Big 3) winning grand slams again and again - can't see that happening again tbf.

You don't get it as much in individual sports - even when Nicholas or Woods were winning multiple majors - there were others who managed to win a fair few as well.

Not that interested in Grand Prix tbf.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I can't get too aerated about Man City tbh because top level football is a stitch up anyway and it makes me laugh to hear fans of clubs like Man U and Liverpool whining about how it's not fair. I agree with the general comments people have made about how the commercial nature of a lot of sport now makes it less interesting though.

 

[May Kasahara]

A lot of the sports I like are individual disciplines that are quite artistic - gymnastics, figure skating, snow/skateboarding - so a narrow field of dominance doesn't necessarily make them less enjoyable to watch. Russia and the US have had long periods of dominance over the first two, but those top tier performances are still fascinating and absorbing at the individual level.

 

[May Kasahara]

That said, I'm delighted to see greater variety in international gymnastics at the highest level, including UK teams/individuals.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Financial doping of Team Sky, Man City/Chelsea and F1 in general, I like Sport to find the best of the best. So domination is not an issue for me. Agreed on the points of scarce competitions having special edge - think Olympics and the Ashes. I guess it all comes down to stories, right? It's an entertainment business after all, nothing more, nothing less. Dominance is a story as much as plucky Leicester is, though more reliable and simpler to market.

One thing I get fairly stuffy/Victor Meldrew on is supporting a team...Made up bants around adults feeling duty bound to go "yah boo my teams better than you". It's fun for a bit of Trumpian/WWE/post truth nonsense...But does any Spurs fan (sticks hand up) think their team has had a better season and outlook to our rivals?

On a related note, Tennis has a huge problem on the horizon...How are they prepared for a post Novak era? The Big 3 were so far ahead of the rest of the bunch, even in later years, they have a real task on their hands to gee up a crowd for the next generation (that said, Tennis is a beautiful sport form a story perspective, in that it's a competition where the top 10 players on the world can come from 10 different nationalities - but is that marketable?).

All which I've said makes the anti-dominance move of the US Sports draft system and Any Given Sunday ethos so bizarre and un-American, and equally brilliant. I don't quite understand it fully, but the lack in dominance of teams is quite something (in a country that you think would invent sporting dominance of powerful entities).

Yes they do something similar in cricket's ipl. It's a system that can only work if you don't have a pyramid. The closed shop aspect is its downside.

Re men's tennis post big 3, there are cycles of up and down - pre Federer was a bit of a trough in the early 2000s. But the likes of Alcaraz, Ruud, Sinner have come through now. It will be ok. What tennis needs imo is rivalries, and I can see new ones developing.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Tbf America does have something of a history of forcing the breakup of excessively large monopolies. More than the UK anyway. That system does seem out of place with the country now but that sort of thinking is there in their culture.

 

[Hollis]

I remember the all-conquering Liverpool team of the 70s/80s, it did get dull seeing them romp home again and again - with the odd interuption, Everton , Arsenal, Notts Forest, Aston Villa - so I was pleased they had the inevitable decline - similar with Man U from the 90s to about 10 years ago - I guess Liverpool just handed over the baton to them - and now Man U seem to have handed that baton to Citeh - I'd prefer closer races, but it's more about the money now than it was in the 70s/80s/90s.

Scottish football doesn't get that exciting, just 2 clubs win in - (or one club atm) you have to go back to the 80s to get Aberdeen and Dundee Utd taking a title or two.

Same in Germany - always Bayern - they even managed to scramble it this year when they struggled.

Argument for a European Super League?

In answer to the original question - after giving it alot of thought I can do no better than 'it depends'.. Agree finance is a factor, but some folk manage to dominate their sport in a particuarly boring way - Sky/Froome... Hendry.. Sampras. Others it's still great to watch even though they're winning everything.. e.g Farah, Johnson, Schumacher..

I also don't really have a problem with Man City - watching them chase down Arsenal this season - has been good to watch.. Ditto on the international season... the 'small nations' narrative the media love can also sometimes get tedious as welll... I'd generally rather see Italy at the world cup than another small nation..

ETA: I think even Brailsford got bored of the way Sky were winning things by the end.. Froome's win in the Giro was by far the best to watch.. imho.

 

[sealion]

Yeah Scottish Prem league must be the most sewn up football league in the world

For two clubs. The Bundesliga is more of a one team takes all division. Bayern Munich have dominated it for years. Psg in France have a monopoly on that.

 

[strung out]

For two clubs. The Bundesliga is more of a one team takes all division. Bayern Munich have dominated it for years. Psg in France have a monopoly on that.

Number of different Ligue 1 winners in the last 16 years = seven

Number of different Bundesliga winners in the last 16 years = three

Number of different SPL winners in the last 16 years = two

 

[sealion]

Number of different Ligue 1 winners in the last 15 years = seven

Number of different Bundesliga winners in the last 15 years = three

Number of different SPL winners in the last 15 years = two

How about the last five years? and how many times has Bayern won it in those 15 years?

 

[stavros]

Another further issue is whether athletes and their supporters from the dominant parties ever have doubts about how they've won. City fans will undoubtedly know the Premiership isn't a level playing field, but may well console themselves, with some justification, that theirs is a modern day version of Liverpool, Utd, Blackburn and Chelsea. Bayern, Juve, Barca/Madrid and the Old Firm are a bit different, because it's now as it's pretty much always been.

Shouldn't there be some danger involved in sport? Regardless of what happens at the weekend, can Manchester City ever exceed expectations in their current set-up?

 

[strung out]

How about the last five years? and how many times has Bayern won it in those 15 years?

Not saying the competition is great in the Bundesliga, just challenging your contention as I read it that it's less competitive than the SPL.

 

[sealion]

Not saying the competition is great in the Bundesliga, just challenging your contention as I read it that it's less competitive than the SPL.

I agree. it's more competetive but it's pretty much dominated by Bayern. They'v won it 14 times since 2010 and have just completed their tenth on the bounce, albeit it on goal difference to Dortmund. I think this season the points margin has been reduced somewhat compared to previous ones.

 

[skyscraper101]

At least there was an element of Man City not winning this season until Arsenal bottled it but even they have yet to get to the levels of Celtic. I mean if Scottish Football wasn't boring enough, then it's not exactly helped by having one team who basically win every year. At least the English premier league has a few teams in contention.

For me the most tiresome thing is the never ending ladism, racism, billionaire dodgy owners, entrenchment of the gambling industry within it, and the constant rip off just to follow the game on TV and that's the biggest turn off. I'm quite happy to take a passing interest now and tune in for Euros and World Cups but that's about it now.

Actually recently I signed up for BT Sport as it was free with my EE mobile account, and I have to say I've been enjoying casually watching other stuff like live Badminton and Aussie Rules Football in the morning and Baseball at night.

 

[editor]

Ok soz. Haven't you got family who are Utd or something ?

My Grandad used to live in Manchester and work for them so when were kids we used to stay near the ground and sometimes meet the players (Denis Law, Nobby Stiles etc)

Not surprisingly the club made a big impression on me and I've always had a soft spot for Utd since, although I've never bought a scarf.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I think City are quite a boring team to watch in the way they strangle the other teams, but there was plenty to watch in the PL besides - Arsenal imploding, the relegation battle, teams like Brighton, Fulham, Brentford etc - Luton next season.

 

[mx wcfc]

Number of different SPL winners in the last 16 years = two

One too many.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Number of different SPL winners in the last 16 years = two

Three..

 

[ska invita]

not a bad article this, touches on things in this thread, though it does ignore that Arsenal were on track to win the league, a fact which in itself doesnt really change much

The dismal story of modern football can be summed up in two words: Manchester City | Phil Mongredien

Champions League glory is within the grasp of this team of well-heeled superstars. But I remember when football was an actual competition, says Guardian journalist Phil Mongredien

www.theguardian.com

one important point that comes up is TV saturation - definitely has a role to play in devaluing the spectacle

all the gripes that come up can be dodged by supporting lower league football...though not every sport has that option....

not watching sports channels and sports news probably helps too

in the internet ago i kind of feel that way about music too ... its possible to drown in music journalism and output...i read nothing, listen in the old ways (a bit of radio), and dont over saturate

 

[Smangus]

Depends how the dominance has come about. If due to money being chucked at the team, individuals etc then a turn off. But if due to innovation, new tactics or hard work/talent (Bolt) then that's fine
Sport is always better when there is a close rivalry though, like Borg/tantrum boy.

 

[stavros]

Depends how the dominance has come about. If due to money being chucked at the team, individuals etc then a turn off. But if due to innovation, new tactics or hard work/talent (Bolt) then that's fine

I think it was a combination for the GB track cycling team. The likes of Boardman, Hoy, Pendleton, Kenny, etc were obviously hugely talented, but the Lottery funding seemed to elevate them just above their rivals from German, Netherlands, Italy, etc.

one important point that comes up is TV saturation - definitely has a role to play in devaluing the spectacle

I saw this article today, about fixture congestion. I immediately thought, bring back the straight knock-out, unseeded European Cup.

 

[ska invita]

I saw this article today, about fixture congestion. I immediately thought, bring back the straight knock-out, unseeded European Cup.

Spurs appeared to throw the FA Cup comp this year - or certainly failed to act like it was an important game and lost with a halfarsed finish to the match - I'm not sure what can be done about that apart from stringing every multi millionaire/petrostate fund club owner up from a goalpost

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I saw this article today, about fixture congestion. I immediately thought, bring back the straight knock-out, unseeded European Cup.

In sporting terms, the old system of European Cup for champions, Cup Winners' Cup for cup winners, and UEFA Cup for sundry others was way superior. Three good comps all with big teams in them, all ranking very highly in terms of prestige.

But of course we can never go back to anything like that. Money ruins sport. It's ruined football.

 

[stavros]

In sporting terms, the old system of European Cup for champions, Cup Winners' Cup for cup winners, and UEFA Cup for sundry others was way superior. Three good comps all with big teams in them, all ranking very highly in terms of prestige.

But of course we can never go back to anything like that. Money ruins sport. It's ruined football.

Oh I'm under no belief that it'll happen. I do think the benefits of the old format get overlooked, as do the negatives of the new.

It reached a nadir a few years ago, when the final was between Liverpool, who at that point hadn't won their domestic league for 29 years, and Spurs, whose equivalent time was 58 years.