Speeding and general dangerous driving in and around Brixton

[teuchter]

I've mentioned this in other threads but it's my feeling that speeding - particularly what I think of as "aggressive speeding" - has become worse relatively recently. I'm not sure if it's just because I've started noticing it more since the 20mph limit was brought in - which is widely ignored and doesn't seem to be enforced at all.

Am I alone in this observation?

Do we have to wait for several pedestrians to be killed before the problem is taken seriously?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I've mentioned this in other threads but it's my feeling that speeding - particularly what I think of as "aggressive speeding" - has become worse relatively recently. I'm not sure if it's just because I've started noticing it more since the 20mph limit was brought in - which is widely ignored and doesn't seem to be enforced at all.

Am I alone in this observation?

Do we have to wait for several pedestrians to be killed before the problem is taken seriously?

I've had several people state to me independently - we're looking into better traffic control on my estate - that people are driving faster since the 20mph limit, almost with a "catch me if you can" contemptuousness.
I'm not sure it will be prioritised UNTIL a death occurs. Safer Neighbourhood teams are operating on half (or less) of the personnel they had 3 years ago, and speed cameras are not being maintained with anywhere near the regularity that used to occur. I've seen twats actually racing on sports motorbikes along Upper Tulse Hill using both sides of the road in the middle of the day. I tried to get the plate numbers to report to the OB, but guess what? No number plates.

 

[Sirena]

I'm sorry but I must disagree.

I remember, back in the mid-80s day, when roads like Acre Lane were insane: when cars would do absolutely anything and everything at any speed from zero to light. Cars racing at breakneck speeds would suddenly jerk to a stop because the driver had seen a friend or a pretty girl... Traffic lights meant nothing

The car, in the hands of young men, was a statement or an attitude, rather than a means of transportation.

Much as I hate what a lot of Brixton has become, I think driving standards are better.

 

[spanglechick]

I don't have specific brixton experience, but the blanket 20 limits are completely ridiculous. It should have been introduced on residential streets only. By putting it on wide, congestion-free A-roads, where there was no need, it invites disregard... and when you see even police cars driving at 30+ on those roads as a matter of course, it sends a message about the 20 limits as a whole.

 

[Pickman's model]

I've had several people state to me independently - we're looking into better traffic control on my estate - that people are driving faster since the 20mph limit, almost with a "catch me if you can" contemptuousness.
I'm not sure it will be prioritised UNTIL a death occurs. Safer Neighbourhood teams are operating on half (or less) of the personnel they had 3 years ago, and speed cameras are not being maintained with anywhere near the regularity that used to occur. I've seen twats actually racing on sports motorbikes along Upper Tulse Hill using both sides of the road in the middle of the day. I tried to get the plate numbers to report to the OB, but guess what? No number plates.

Not sure snts anything to do with roads policing which would, I think, more the traffick remit - the cops with t on their shoulders.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I lived on Mervan Road for about twenty years, right up to about four years ago.

People would really barrel down that road, especially the cops, who seemed to use it as a cut through. They late put speed bumps in, which helped a bit, but not much.

Not as bad as Saltoun Road though, which was always a speedy road.

So no, I don't think it's just a recent thing.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I thought things had improved since 20mph limit and other traffic calming measures, I thought there seemed to be fewer boy racers near us I - but crash on Railton Road recently maybe suggests not

View attachment 114564
This was the scene at the crossroads of Railton Road and Shakespeare Road yesterday tea time. The street's much better since extensive traffic calming measures, but it can still be hazardous.

 

[T & P]

I don't have specific brixton experience, but the blanket 20 limits are completely ridiculous. It should have been introduced on residential streets only. By putting it on wide, congestion-free A-roads, where there was no need, it invites disregard... and when you see even police cars driving at 30+ on those roads as a matter of course, it sends a message about the 20 limits as a whole.

Spot on. Not just police either. London buses, council vehicles, off-duty ambulances...

Undiscriminating Borough-wide speed limits of 20 mph are daft and doomed to be disregarded, at least on the main thoroughfares. A 25 mph limit might have stood a more realistic chance of being observed.

IME the overall speed and behaviour has not got worse over the years. In fact I'd say it's improved, and the overall average speed might have decreased. But the number of antisocial dickheads has increased. Young men in scooters behaving like fuckwits appear to be legion these days.

 

[teuchter]

I don't have specific brixton experience, but the blanket 20 limits are completely ridiculous. It should have been introduced on residential streets only. By putting it on wide, congestion-free A-roads, where there was no need, it invites disregard... and when you see even police cars driving at 30+ on those roads as a matter of course, it sends a message about the 20 limits as a whole.

So it doesn't matter so much if pedestrians get killed on "wide, congestion free A-roads" roads as it does when they get killed on residential roads? Virtually every road in south london is part of regular walking routes for local residents. There is a reason for the 20mph limit. If police cars are breaking the limit, they should be taken to task, not used as an excuse.

 

[teuchter]

I'm sorry but I must disagree.

I remember, back in the mid-80s day, when roads like Acre Lane were insane: when cars would do absolutely anything and everything at any speed from zero to light. Cars racing at breakneck speeds would suddenly jerk to a stop because the driver had seen a friend or a pretty girl... Traffic lights meant nothing

The car, in the hands of young men, was a statement or an attitude, rather than a means of transportation.

Much as I hate what a lot of Brixton has become, I think driving standards are better.

I'm talking about a change in the last 3-4 years.

 

[Winot]

A good reason for a borough-wide limit is that it is unambiguous and you know where you stand (TFL roads aside).

 

[teuchter]

I've seen twats actually racing on sports motorbikes along Upper Tulse Hill using both sides of the road in the middle of the day. I tried to get the plate numbers to report to the OB, but guess what? No number plates.

Sometimes the bottom end of Herne Hill Road is used by motorcyclists as some kind of test track. The other day, there was a guy going up and down, doing wheelies and the like, with folk standing on the pavement videoing him. I guess it is now on youtube somewhere.

 

[Winot]

I'm talking about a change in the last 3-4 years.

What has changed in that period is significant cuts to police resources, and some forces deciding not to prioritise enforcement of road traffic laws.

 

[spanglechick]

So it doesn't matter so much if pedestrians get killed on "wide, congestion free A-roads" roads as it does when they get killed on residential roads? Virtually every road in south london is part of regular walking routes for local residents. There is a reason for the 20mph limit. If police cars are breaking the limit, they should be taken to task, not used as an excuse.

These are roads which pedestrians rarely cross, four carriageways wide, no parked cars. Have never been in need of traffic calming measures. Some roads just aren't a natural fit for 20mph limits.

 

[Gramsci]

Spot on. Not just police either. London buses, council vehicles, off-duty ambulances...

Undiscriminating Borough-wide speed limits of 20 mph are daft and doomed to be disregarded, at least on the main thoroughfares. A 25 mph limit might have stood a more realistic chance of being observed.

IME the overall speed and behaviour has not got worse over the years. In fact I'd say it's improved, and the overall average speed might have decreased. But the number of antisocial dickheads has increased. Young men in scooters behaving like fuckwits appear to be legion these days.

Can you explain why they are daft? Is it because they don't make roads safer? Or that they will be so widely disregarded that it's daft to try and make people keep to them?

 

[Gramsci]

These are roads which pedestrians rarely cross, four carriageways wide, no parked cars. Have never been in need of traffic calming measures. Some roads just aren't a natural fit for 20mph limits.

That would be motorways. Which are separate from bulk of road network.

Which roads in Lambeth/ Brixton are u thinking of?

 

[Gramsci]

I'm on Coldharbour Lane. Near LJ. I do find , particularly in evenings, that cars drive fast through LJ. LJ will be having ,at the CHL / Loughborough road junction,some traffic calming measures soon. So will see how effective this is.

This is happening despite the best efforts of the car lobby in LJ to water them down. Spurred on by there victory over the road closures they have been opposing any traffic calming proposal.

If the car lobby had there way there wouldn't be any 20mph speed limit.

 

[T & P]

Can you explain why they are daft? Is it because they don't make roads safer? Or that they will be so widely disregarded that it's daft to try and make people keep to them?

Going to bed now but I will reply in full tomorrow. Please remind me if I don't.

 

[Gramsci]

So it doesn't matter so much if pedestrians get killed on "wide, congestion free A-roads" roads as it does when they get killed on residential roads? Virtually every road in south london is part of regular walking routes for local residents. There is a reason for the 20mph limit. If police cars are breaking the limit, they should be taken to task, not used as an excuse.

To backup at u say police keep to limits. Unless on emergency call. Im in the roads a lot and seen it. Take Islington. I was saying to someone a while back that police seem to drive slowly in Islington. Didn't know that Islington was first borough to do 20mph blanket speed limit.

 

[Gramsci]

In London a 20mph limit is hardly imo an onerous condition on driving.

Driving on motorways between cities is a different matter.

My only problem with it is that delivery firms often expect there drivers to get jobs done quickly. There is a lot of pressure on drivers to turn the jobs around. Same with food deliveries. Though all these companies would deny it. Which is why see some mopeds take risks.

Most of the speeding traffic I see in LJ on Coldharbour Lane is private cars and motorcycles. They see a clear street of road and put their foot down.

 

[teuchter]

I'm open to any evidence that suggests the contrary but it seems to me that in London the main things that affect how fast you get somewhere on the roads are traffic lights and congestion. Anyone who cycles will be familiar with the scenario where a car overtakes you only for you to catch it up at the next lights, and the same thing happens in between there and the next set of lights. Those who want 30mph instead of 20 on main roads - why? Because you think your journey will take less time?

In a sensible world we'd simply require vehicles to be fitted with speed limiters. This would remove the issue of impatience and frustration leading to speeding and erratic driving - or the same things resulting from pressure from employers to get deliveries done quickly.

 

[spanglechick]

That would be motorways. Which are separate from bulk of road network.

Which roads in Lambeth/ Brixton are u thinking of?

Top of college road up to the junction with Crystal Palace parade.

 

[teuchter]

Top of college road up to the junction with Crystal Palace parade.

I've just looked on streetview. There are houses along each side of that road. It's also a very short stretch of dual carriageway with "normal" road at each end. Do you want to be able to go faster than 20mph just for that distance? How many seconds will it save you?

 

[Ms T]

I often see utter twats speeding down Railton Rd. The speed calming measures mean they have to slow down then speed up again. I am also overtaken all the time while driving at 20 mph.

 

[Winot]

I often see utter twats speeding down Railton Rd. The speed calming measures mean they have to slow down then speed up again. I am also overtaken all the time while driving at 20 mph.

I was once overtaken by a bus when I was trying to stick to the 20mph limit. It can be pretty intimidating.

My mum insists it's hard to stick to 20 in modern cars. That's nonsense of course, but I do think that it's a matter of habit and practice. I don't drive that often in a London but can tell without looking at the speedometer that my car is doing 30 and so it's easy to stick to that. I can't tell that I'm doing 20 and have to keep checking. I'm guessing that'll change over time.

 

[spanglechick]

I've just looked on streetview. There are houses along each side of that road. It's also a very short stretch of dual carriageway with "normal" road at each end. Do you want to be able to go faster than 20mph just for that distance? How many seconds will it save you?

I'm not sure what you're looking at. There are no houses on either side. On one side is woods and on the other is a drop down into a housing estate which is accessed further down. Its about 400m long, at a guess? It's an example. My route to work is only about a mile and a half so all my examples are going to be short.

 

[lefteri]

I'm open to any evidence that suggests the contrary but it seems to me that in London the main things that affect how fast you get somewhere on the roads are traffic lights and congestion.

This is true and i assume is the reason google maps gives such uncannily accurate timings for routes in advance - there is rarely a deviation of more than a few minutes in reality and that is usually the journey taking a bit longer because of a heavy traffic patch which it could not have foreseeen

 

[Winot]

I'm not sure what you're looking at. There are no houses on either side. On one side is woods and on the other is a drop down into a housing estate which is accessed further down. Its about 400m long, at a guess? It's an example. My route to work is only about a mile and a half so all my examples are going to be short.

If my maths is right you save about 15 seconds going at 30mph over 400m compared to going at 20mph.

Edit to add - and if your commute is only 1.5 miles then even if you have a clear unimpeded run you would only get there 90 seconds faster doing 30mph than doing 20mph. In other words, it's not the speed limit that's slowing you down.

 

[spanglechick]

If my maths is right you save about 15 seconds going at 30mph over 400m compared to going at 20mph.

It's not about getting there quicker. It's about slowing right down to pootle along a wide, safe road with a load of pissed off vehicles behind you. And no one does it. My point was, that having stupid sections like that, encourages some people to ignore the 20 limit further down the road where it is needed.

 

[Winot]

It's not about getting there quicker. It's about slowing right down to pootle along a wide, safe road with a load of pissed off vehicles behind you. And no one does it. My point was, that having stupid sections like that, encourages some people to ignore the 20 limit further down the road where it is needed.

This is why enforcement is needed, to bring about a change in what's acceptable. 20 years ago cars routinely drove in the bus lane on Brixton Rd in the morning. Now hardly any do, because there are bus lane cameras and they know they'll get fined.