Smart home essentials
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Chz
Stark Raving Sane
I think the telling bit is that even the people who are well into home automation and have successfully set up a large number of devices (which is not an insignificant task!) tend to admit that no-one but them will ever use/understand the system. It's part of why I have no interest - the fact that the mrs would never bother to learn it and I'd end up doing more things than I do now. The other part is sheer laziness, because it's not easy. No-one who's not technically minded in the first place wants to figure out Zigbee.
Leafster
.
I tried to use a Raspberry Pi loaded with 'Loxberry'. It's effectively an interface that allows other smart home stuff to talk to my Loxone server. The intention was to connect up my Netatmo weather station to provide more accurate external temperature inputs to fine tune my heating.
It was fun trying but ultimately my abilities let me down and I gave up!
teuchter
je suis teuchter
What puts me off smart home stuff is not hackers hijacking my lighting or google snooping on me or fridges ordering things I don't want.
It's that most of these systems are proprietary which means that if the company that makes your lighting control system goes bust, or stops stocking replacement parts, or increases their prices then you are stuck.
You can try and silo different things, so that the system controlling your heating is not the same one that's controlling your doorbell or lighting or whatever, but then you can't take advantage of integrating things with each other.
If there were some kind of common, open standard that was really widely used then it would be different. You could choose things from a particular company but not be totally reliant on them. If they disappeared you could buy a replacement thing and know that it could still speak to the rest of your system.
Although there are open standards to some extent, as far as I can see, really you need to be a computing enthusiast to get them set up. And because they aren't really in the mainstream there's the worry of them becoming obsolete.
I have a Honeywell heating control system that consists of a control panel and electronic valves on each radiator. Worst case there (if it all stops working) is that I simply have to replace the radiator valves with regular ones while I decide whether I want to switch to a different system.
And I have some lighting that is controlled by electronic controllers using the DMX standard. I decided to go with DMX (which is not really intended for home lighting) because it's widespread and lots of different companies make DMX controllers. However, because it's not really a consumer-friendly system it's a bit of a headache to maintain. A whole house system on the same kind of cobbled-together DIY basis would be even more of a pain.
It's that most of these systems are proprietary which means that if the company that makes your lighting control system goes bust, or stops stocking replacement parts, or increases their prices then you are stuck.
You can try and silo different things, so that the system controlling your heating is not the same one that's controlling your doorbell or lighting or whatever, but then you can't take advantage of integrating things with each other.
If there were some kind of common, open standard that was really widely used then it would be different. You could choose things from a particular company but not be totally reliant on them. If they disappeared you could buy a replacement thing and know that it could still speak to the rest of your system.
Although there are open standards to some extent, as far as I can see, really you need to be a computing enthusiast to get them set up. And because they aren't really in the mainstream there's the worry of them becoming obsolete.
I have a Honeywell heating control system that consists of a control panel and electronic valves on each radiator. Worst case there (if it all stops working) is that I simply have to replace the radiator valves with regular ones while I decide whether I want to switch to a different system.
And I have some lighting that is controlled by electronic controllers using the DMX standard. I decided to go with DMX (which is not really intended for home lighting) because it's widespread and lots of different companies make DMX controllers. However, because it's not really a consumer-friendly system it's a bit of a headache to maintain. A whole house system on the same kind of cobbled-together DIY basis would be even more of a pain.
Gromit
International Man of Misery
If Amazon go bust you'll have bigger problems than smart devices quitting.
Amazon is big enough now to start a global recession if it vanished. Not just because of the level of retail trade but also the size of its logistics fleet.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
It doesn't have to go bust to cause a problem for people using home automation based on its systems. It can decide to stop supporting something or other, or change the way something works or the terms and conditions of its use, or increase pricing or introduce subscription pricing where there wasn't before.
There's plenty of precedent for that sort of thing.
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
Indeed:
arstechnica.com
US school runs lights 24/7/365: The smart lights have been broken since 2021
"We've been doing everything we can to fix this," says school official.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
That's exactly the kind of thing.
It's also why I hate the creep of subscription based software. There's a particular software that i use to do my job and earn a living. It used to be that you paid for your licence and then you'd own it outright. You'd have to pay to update to newer versions, but if you didn't you'd still own something that would work for as long as the hardware did. Now they want to switch to subscriptions - once the licence expires that's it, you can't use it at all without shelling out. Not even to look at an old project for 5 minutes to check something. I often wonder what would happen if the company went bust - hopefully there would be enough users relying on access that someone would work out a hack to disable the licence expiries.
It's also why I hate the creep of subscription based software. There's a particular software that i use to do my job and earn a living. It used to be that you paid for your licence and then you'd own it outright. You'd have to pay to update to newer versions, but if you didn't you'd still own something that would work for as long as the hardware did. Now they want to switch to subscriptions - once the licence expires that's it, you can't use it at all without shelling out. Not even to look at an old project for 5 minutes to check something. I often wonder what would happen if the company went bust - hopefully there would be enough users relying on access that someone would work out a hack to disable the licence expiries.
philosophical
Well-Known Member
Whoever writes the so called helpful stuff for the Alexa app is useless, their site makes no sense to me.
I loved the Jetsons as a kid, so being able to have some of that stuff in my life is a bit of a dream come through. My system is cobbled together and a bit of a hobby as much as anything else - there were lots of things that I spent ages trying to make work with limited success - in many cases taking far more time and effort than it'd ever save.
My set up is
- Central brain - I run a small server (an old £50 thin client from ebay) which has a VM on it running Home Assistant which is basically software you pipe everything to (it can interface with most things) - it's an open source project that has lots of support and has come along massively over the past couple of years. I still wouldn't recommend it to my mum but if you've got a vague interest tech it allows you to take inputs (switches, sensors, data feeds, timers, smart speaker prompts etc) and outputs (light bulbs, smart radiators, speakers etc) and do whatever you want to link the two.
- Lighting - I'm not a fan of big light so lots of lamps and mood lighting which is all smart bulbs or smart sockets and some of the main lights have smart bulbs. Some lights come on to a timers (baby room for example gets a dim red around bedtime), hallway light has a motion sensor that gives you a few mins light when you come in/go out, bedroom cycles between sidelights/big light etc and will give you variable light depending on time of day/which side of bed has switched on the light etc. Ikea smart switches that are the primary controller for this (but just hooked directly into the local zigbee network) - it works independent of the internet and is all nice and simple. Press the light switch and the lamps/mood lighting all comes on in one go. When we had a newborn and were doing multiple feeds during the night, it was set up so bedside switch would give whoever a nice gentle red light on their side of the bed + hall + in living room + some gentle music in the living room, was much nicer than going from sleep to bright light or fumbling about in the dark. This for me is the really valuable stuff and is all reliable.
- AV - Google hubs or speakers in each room to issue voice commands (in practice this isn't usually necessary as routines or physical switches are preferred) but allows for music to be zoned or played throughout the house. Great as you don't have to whack it to full volume to hear it as you go around. Big stereo has chromecast audio which is linked to spotify etc so you can play through whichever device without any hassle. Hubs act as smart photo frames with family shared album on it which is nice (I'm not a fan of sticking photos up everywhere so this is a nice compromise). Can also display baby monitor on them / big TV. Crispy has nailed the use cases for smart speakers and also the privacy argument on these and if they did start recording stuff more generally/without keyword then I'd rip them right out.
- Heating - nest with smart valves on each radiator, the valves are fairly cheap clearance stock which works OK but not as integrated with the boiler as I'd like but I keep it fairly simple. I'm sure with last years energy prices paid for itself, roughly in the morning it heats the bedroom, during the day the home office and evening living room before turning the bedroom on before bed so the boiler. All set up once and does it's own thing based on time but can also be overridden by just twisting it like a regular valve, by voice, phone app etc. Also have temperature/humidity sensors in each room which I'd like to integrate a bit more with things but for now just good to know babies room temp overnight etc.
- Dryer used to have a smart plug that detected when the power goes above a certain level (i.e is on) and then drops below a certain level (i.e load is done) and then play an announcement on the smart speakers, worked a treat when the dryer was in the shed but in new house I can just hear it stop droning so haven't bothered reinstating
- Smart TV, have Xbox controller connected to Geforce Now so can play some games on it, don't actually do it much in practice. Otherwise usual stuff, Youtube app, voice control, also a photoframe when not used for 5 mins, can show baby monitor.
- Smart doorbell, had one for a short while in the old house but didn't find it that reliable, in current house it'd be overlooking the neighbours doorway too so an invasion of their privacy so not something I'd go for. Currently have an old fashioned knocker which does the job well. Tempted to add some kind of knock sensor but think that'd just be automating for the sake of it. Would love a smart lock so I can stop carrying keys and open it remotely etc but can't justify the cost right now and it's one of the few things I wouldn't cheap out on.
- Smart Vacuum - worked well in old house - pretty shit here with a flight of steps to get stuck on, different flooring/rugs that it freaks out on. Still have it but regular vac does as much work now.
Things I'd like, mostly don't have due to lack of cheap/reliable/safe options
- smart curtains - currently too expensive to do properly but I'd love to be able to automatically open the curtains on a bright morning or leave them shut if it's grey and raining.
- smart smoke alarms - would have to work fully as 'dumb' ones but if they could additionally turn on all the lights and play something on the speakers that'd be good.
- smart kettle - would be great to go to a boiled kettle, maybe one of those taps at some point
- properly wired smart switches - at the moment I've tried to leave the dumb stuff in place but maybe in the future I'll update the switches to be smart (but again it'd have to have some reliable dumb failover)
I'm also a tightarse so most of the above is achieved with fairly cheap stuff (within reason, I avoid really cheap stuff when it comes to mains electricity). I try to use zigbee wherever possible so it's not reliant on third parties or the internet, as a bonus mains powered zigbee stuff acts as a mesh network and so increases the reliability of the rest of it and battery powered zigbee stuff uses very little power so can be run off batteries - e.g light switches have been running for over a year on coin cell batteries and have plenty of life in them still.
Incidentally if I were recommending to my mum I'd say the Ikea smart stuff is very good quality, good value, built on Zigbee so open standards underneath, consumer friendly and I trust their safety standards.
Smart switches were the game changer in our household. Allow you to use smart lighting without sounding like an idiot or having to unlock phones etc. But more generally this is a really important point about the tech needing to work for everyone in the house (and people who might be visiting) - not just the person who sets it up.
My set up is
- Central brain - I run a small server (an old £50 thin client from ebay) which has a VM on it running Home Assistant which is basically software you pipe everything to (it can interface with most things) - it's an open source project that has lots of support and has come along massively over the past couple of years. I still wouldn't recommend it to my mum but if you've got a vague interest tech it allows you to take inputs (switches, sensors, data feeds, timers, smart speaker prompts etc) and outputs (light bulbs, smart radiators, speakers etc) and do whatever you want to link the two.
- Lighting - I'm not a fan of big light so lots of lamps and mood lighting which is all smart bulbs or smart sockets and some of the main lights have smart bulbs. Some lights come on to a timers (baby room for example gets a dim red around bedtime), hallway light has a motion sensor that gives you a few mins light when you come in/go out, bedroom cycles between sidelights/big light etc and will give you variable light depending on time of day/which side of bed has switched on the light etc. Ikea smart switches that are the primary controller for this (but just hooked directly into the local zigbee network) - it works independent of the internet and is all nice and simple. Press the light switch and the lamps/mood lighting all comes on in one go. When we had a newborn and were doing multiple feeds during the night, it was set up so bedside switch would give whoever a nice gentle red light on their side of the bed + hall + in living room + some gentle music in the living room, was much nicer than going from sleep to bright light or fumbling about in the dark. This for me is the really valuable stuff and is all reliable.
- AV - Google hubs or speakers in each room to issue voice commands (in practice this isn't usually necessary as routines or physical switches are preferred) but allows for music to be zoned or played throughout the house. Great as you don't have to whack it to full volume to hear it as you go around. Big stereo has chromecast audio which is linked to spotify etc so you can play through whichever device without any hassle. Hubs act as smart photo frames with family shared album on it which is nice (I'm not a fan of sticking photos up everywhere so this is a nice compromise). Can also display baby monitor on them / big TV. Crispy has nailed the use cases for smart speakers and also the privacy argument on these and if they did start recording stuff more generally/without keyword then I'd rip them right out.
- Heating - nest with smart valves on each radiator, the valves are fairly cheap clearance stock which works OK but not as integrated with the boiler as I'd like but I keep it fairly simple. I'm sure with last years energy prices paid for itself, roughly in the morning it heats the bedroom, during the day the home office and evening living room before turning the bedroom on before bed so the boiler. All set up once and does it's own thing based on time but can also be overridden by just twisting it like a regular valve, by voice, phone app etc. Also have temperature/humidity sensors in each room which I'd like to integrate a bit more with things but for now just good to know babies room temp overnight etc.
- Dryer used to have a smart plug that detected when the power goes above a certain level (i.e is on) and then drops below a certain level (i.e load is done) and then play an announcement on the smart speakers, worked a treat when the dryer was in the shed but in new house I can just hear it stop droning so haven't bothered reinstating
- Smart TV, have Xbox controller connected to Geforce Now so can play some games on it, don't actually do it much in practice. Otherwise usual stuff, Youtube app, voice control, also a photoframe when not used for 5 mins, can show baby monitor.
- Smart doorbell, had one for a short while in the old house but didn't find it that reliable, in current house it'd be overlooking the neighbours doorway too so an invasion of their privacy so not something I'd go for. Currently have an old fashioned knocker which does the job well. Tempted to add some kind of knock sensor but think that'd just be automating for the sake of it. Would love a smart lock so I can stop carrying keys and open it remotely etc but can't justify the cost right now and it's one of the few things I wouldn't cheap out on.
- Smart Vacuum - worked well in old house - pretty shit here with a flight of steps to get stuck on, different flooring/rugs that it freaks out on. Still have it but regular vac does as much work now.
Things I'd like, mostly don't have due to lack of cheap/reliable/safe options
- smart curtains - currently too expensive to do properly but I'd love to be able to automatically open the curtains on a bright morning or leave them shut if it's grey and raining.
- smart smoke alarms - would have to work fully as 'dumb' ones but if they could additionally turn on all the lights and play something on the speakers that'd be good.
- smart kettle - would be great to go to a boiled kettle, maybe one of those taps at some point
- properly wired smart switches - at the moment I've tried to leave the dumb stuff in place but maybe in the future I'll update the switches to be smart (but again it'd have to have some reliable dumb failover)
I'm also a tightarse so most of the above is achieved with fairly cheap stuff (within reason, I avoid really cheap stuff when it comes to mains electricity). I try to use zigbee wherever possible so it's not reliant on third parties or the internet, as a bonus mains powered zigbee stuff acts as a mesh network and so increases the reliability of the rest of it and battery powered zigbee stuff uses very little power so can be run off batteries - e.g light switches have been running for over a year on coin cell batteries and have plenty of life in them still.
Incidentally if I were recommending to my mum I'd say the Ikea smart stuff is very good quality, good value, built on Zigbee so open standards underneath, consumer friendly and I trust their safety standards.
Smart switches were the game changer in our household. Allow you to use smart lighting without sounding like an idiot or having to unlock phones etc. But more generally this is a really important point about the tech needing to work for everyone in the house (and people who might be visiting) - not just the person who sets it up.
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Just to add on a more general note, expect to see more and more smart stuff. In many cases it's cheaper for manufacturers of say a washing machine to have a radio/controller on the circuit board and have it controlled via an app than to pay for a bunch of physical buttons and the associated wiring.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
I mean I've taught her to use Plex. I think that's quite enough.
I was vaguely interested in smart radiator valves, but couldn't find a solution that would keep working when the company inevitably stopped supporting them and yet also be easy enough that I wasn't responsible when things didn't go as planned.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
My washing machine and tumbler dryer have a fucking app. I downloaded it out of morbid curiosity, but they want shit loads of data of me to control my tumble dryer and I got a massive case cba.
sim667
All aboard the 303 bus.
Do you use Google home as I can’t work out the interfacing with home assistant. It’s very complicated
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
I know Leafster has this issue, but with mine it's literally "Alexa, turn lights on" or similar. You can also still use the switches instead if you want.
It's not like once you out in a smart lightbulb you are obliged to ask devices to open the door for you or order stuff from the fridge.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I went to buy a new washing machine today , as to be expected the different machines have a host of controls/settings (and the manuals) in Portuguese which I ended up translating via the camera on google translate . The shop assistant trying to be helpful asked if I was interested in an LG machine that I could programme via an app and then brought out his phone to show me his LG app , changed the language in settings and then went through the different types of washes and timers he could set whilst he was at work.
I ended up buying a Bosch sans bluetooth and I've found an English manual for the non EU version of the same model.
Now if they had an app that put the dirty clothes in the machine and then washed them , pegged them out to dry and brought them in before it rains or they get bleached in the sun I'd be very interested
I ended up buying a Bosch sans bluetooth and I've found an English manual for the non EU version of the same model.
Now if they had an app that put the dirty clothes in the machine and then washed them , pegged them out to dry and brought them in before it rains or they get bleached in the sun I'd be very interested
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
I can guarantee you my wife and kid would both turn off the lights at the switch and leave me talking to a dark, empty room the next morning.
Then you turn it on, either by the switch or by voice.
ETA: Do people think that once it's turned off by the switch, it can't be turned on by voice, or even by the switch? This'd be exactly like them all just turning the lights off, except that you can turn them on again in more than one way.
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May Kasahara
take me to the feeling
An ex-firefighter colleague of mine tells me that unattended washing machines and tumble dryers make up a significant portion of house fires, so I'm not sure setting them to run while you're at work is such a bonus.
May Kasahara
take me to the feeling
Maybe the smart ones know not to go on fire so often, I dunno 
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
I think it's shitter then that, at least on mine. It allows you to unlock more programmes, like it hasn't got enough already I don't use.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
Then it needs to be able to text you "help, I'm on fire."
WouldBe
Dislicksick
As they have a water supply why can't they put themselves out?Maybe the smart ones know not to go on fire so often, I dunno
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
This is something I've also heard, but most of us have to have the washing machine on either when we're out at work or when we're asleep.
I don't think there are many smart washing machines yet anyway, not in a way people really use.
I do but the easy way using the Nabu Casa cloud service which is a commercial spin off by the Home Assistant founders. Makes it really easy to expose everything to google home and also to use voice commands from the google home devices. Think it also acts as a conduit to the homeassistant app from outside your local network too. It costs about a fiver a month.
IIRC it's possible to do this for free without using Nabu Casa but it involves exposing your Home Assistant install to the internet, DDNS stuff if you don't have a static IP, opening up ports, pissing about with getting SSL certificates, creating a project with loads of permissions on my main google account which I use for lots of other stuff. Some of that I'm comfortable doing, others would be blindly following guides around stuff that requires understanding. It might be a bit easier now but a fiver going out per month is preferable to opening that can of worms and I think it supports the project in someway too.
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
I'm not sure how you'd turn on a powered off light by voice. It would have no electricity. I might actually buy that for the rest of the house!
