Second round of arrests this evening re: wedding

[dylans]

If it were as simple for the police and the Home Office as that, I'd be inclined to agree with you, however, it isn't. "pre-arrests" are not legislated under our extant law, which means that the govt has one of three choices:

1) continue the behaviour, in which case the law lords will rule against them, which will leave not just the government and police, but the individuals that embody those institutions open to legal action.

2) Legislate for new powers, which would probably require the Parliament Act, because very few MPs who care about getting re-elected will vote for a law that has the power to deleteriously affect a majority of their constituents.

3) concede that the tactic is a bust, that it worked once, but that it would be expensive, inconvenient and garner too much bad publicity to warrant further use.

The police will try to justify this stuff as intended to prevent "a breach of the peace" right? Perhaps they are hoping that this is enough to ensure such actions are ruled legal? I admit I am not familiar with legal arguments so I am on weak ground here. Nevertheless it is my gut feeling that if the police are confident enough to carry this action out then they might just be confident enough to defend it legally (though again I have little legal argument to back this up and admittedly "kettling" hasn't gone too well for them in this regard, though it should be pointed out that kettling still continues) In terms of your 3 options I am betting on point 1.

 

[revlon]

Fuck knight. As ymu has pointed out, he's a distraction. Much more concerning is the hundreds of arrests and exclusions as well as house and squat raids etc. This is not about knight is it. Its about an across the board assault on the right to free speech for everyone

okay we seem be be bundling up of civil liberties examples. I would say the squat raids were a direct consequence of knight's media whoredom - promising violence from the anarchists, a promise he had no right to make and no intention of keeping. It served the police well in justifying their 'intelligence' of planned unlawful activity.

It terms of mass arrests there were apparently 836 people arrested back in 1990 for having a party

I'm sure there some old skool ravers who can tell you about the level of police harrassment and repression during that period.

 

[ymu]

So, you'd have been entirely complacent back then had they arrested a few dozen people in order to prevent the party even starting?

 

[revlon]

So, you'd have been entirely complacent back then had they arrested a few dozen people in order to prevent the party even starting?

are we back on knight again?

 

[ymu]

are we back on knight again?

No. Knight was one of dozens pre-arrested and/or banned. Why are you pretending it's all about him and what other activists think of him, or that it's not a step up from arresting people after they've started partying/protesting in an inconvenient fashion?

 

[revlon]

No. Knight was one of dozens pre-arrested and/or banned. Why are you pretending it's all about him and what other activists think of him, or that it's not a step up from arresting people after they've started partying/protesting in an inconvenient fashion?

okay, in response to this

- Much more concerning is the hundreds of arrests and exclusions as well as house and squat raids etc. This is not about knight is it. Its about an across the board assault on the right to free speech for everyone

i gave an example of mass arrests happening back in 1990, where the people involved weren't doing anything unlawful.

From my understanding of the nottingham case (and i have a number of close friends who was arrested during that - in fact i was asked to go up to nottingham but declined) is a peaceful demonstration can still be unlawful, and those in the original trial admitted their intentions to act unlawfully - commit aggravated trespass.

i don't know what the exclusions being cited here are, but certainly football hooligans have been excluded from football grounds for many years.

As for the raids on the social centres again i stand by the opening knight defence.

 

[dylans]

are we back on knight again?

No. The issue has never been merely about Knight but about a whole wave of harassment and premeditated arrests of activists before any crime is committed. Police actions that seem quite unprecidented and actions that I fear indicate a very disturbing twist on the policing of protest and tolerance of basic civil liberties. Simple stuff like having to commit a crime in order to be arrested or the basic right to express dissent. Frankly I am amazed that you seem content to shrug this off as unimportant or seem keen to dismiss as all about one man.

 

[dylans]

gave an example of mass arrests happening back in 1990, where the people involved weren't doing anything unlawful.

Were those people arrested prior to the party?

i don't know what the exclusions being cited here are, but certainly football hooligans have been excluded from football grounds for many years.

Were those footy hooligans arrested at their homes and thrown in a police van then locked up prior to a football match even beginning?

Genuine questions because I am trying to find a precident for a large group of people who on the whole had made their peaceful intentions very explicit, being arrested before committing any crime, solely on the basis that their political opinions were contrary to that of a state organised event

 

[revlon]

No. The issue has never been merely about Knight but about a whole wave of harassment and premeditated arrests of activists before any crime is committed. Police actions that seem quite unprecidented and actions that I fear indicate a very disturbing twist on the policing of protest and tolerance of basic civil liberties. Simple stuff like having to commit a crime in order to be arrested or the basic right to express dissent. Frankly I am amazed that you seem content to shrug this off as unimportant or seem keen to dismiss as all about one man.

well it was about knight and my lack of solidarity for his plight, and then you began clumping a load more erosion of civil liberties examples in one toxic pile and naming it 'unprecedented'.

I can tell you there were a number of people in london fully expecting and prepared for their doors to go in on april 28th, so you can accuse me of many things but being content to shrug this off as unimportant is not one of them.

Policing does what it can get away with. This has always been the case. I think it's simply because the mainstream media has picked up on it and is running with it that makes it look all shiny and new and different and disturbing.

 

[revlon]

Genuine questions because I am trying to find a precident for a large group of people who on the whole had made their peaceful intentions very explicit, being arrested before committing any crime, solely on the basis that their political opinions were contrary to that of a state organised event

that's a very specific criteria. What large group of people are you talking about now?

 

[revlon]

about the people arrested at the ratstar:

It was obvious that the police could not reasonably impose bail conditions on the arrestees just for abstraction of electricity and, when they were later released, just after 9pm, we learned that they had been further arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to breach the peace. On what evidence? A handful of Chris Knight's Zombie Wedding leaflets had been found in the cafe space inside Ratstar. They have been bailed away from Westminster until 10th June. A demo was arranged outside Walworth Road in support of those arrested for 8am today.
http://www.fitwatch.org.uk/2011/04/29/police-raids-on-squats-and-social-projects/

 

[dylans]

that's a very specific criteria. What large group of people are you talking about now?

In the Camberwell are of London, 14 arrests were reported yesterday after police raided a community centre called Ratstar.

There were also police raids at the Off Market centre in the Lower Clapton Road and the Grow Heathrow squat, both in London. Off Market, which runs advice services on topics such as housing and gardening, is also a squat. Observers say there has been one arrest there and that the police have broken windows and a door.”

Today six ‘anarchists’ were arrested to prevent them from demonstrating on the day of the royal wedding. The six were given strict bail conditions which forbids them from entering Central London on Friday, as the police have apparent intelligence that they are planning to ‘disrupt’ the event. This brings the total number banned from the centre to 68.

A senior policeman said an unofficial Royal Wedding street party which ended in 22 arrests had 'brought shame' on Scotland.
Thousands of people descended on Glasgow's Kelvingrove Park for the event which was organised on Facebook.
The evening ended with 22 people being arrested and 11 police officers injured as violent scenes broke out after music was turned off.

Police have arrested 31 people who are suspected of involvement in various plans to disrupt tomorrow's Royal Wedding, according to sources.

Charlie Veitch Arrested In Pre-Crime Raid Prior to Royal Wedding

Zombie wedding gets broken up in Soho Square -

Members of anti-cuts group Queer Resistance were arrested in central London today after gathering over a kilometre away from the royal wedding celebrations.

http://www.lesbilicious.co.uk#ixzz1L1PGexLx


http://web.orange.co.uk/article/news/arrests_amid_royal_wedding_disruption_plot

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...fficers-disgust-Royal-Wedding-riot-thugs.html



http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/306124

I'm sure there are lots more.

 

[smokedout]

Genuine questions because I am trying to find a precident for a large group of people who on the whole had made their peaceful intentions very explicit, being arrested before committing any crime, solely on the basis that their political opinions were contrary to that of a state organised event

the movement against the monarchy protests, the fairford coach protest

raids on the button factory and other squats before j18, as well as pre-emptive squat raids before the mayday protests, FIT teams turning up outside peoples houses and following them round all day, meetings broken up/LARC raided before DSEi etc, countless raids on protest camps

none of this is new, if the state is rattled they'll happily break the law themselves and pay out a few quid afterwards

 

[emma goldman]

From Fitwatch also here

"...the cops will undoubtedly claim this model of preventative detention and raids was a success and seek to use it in the future. A dangerous precedent has been set and this blatant state intimidation must be resisted both in the courts and on the streets".

 

[1%er]

Some very interesting comments on this thread, it has sure made the scales fall from my eyes about the politics of some posters who seem to change their view depending on personalities and not politics

On the wider issue I think I agree with dylans where he says "Police actions that seem quite unprecedented and actions that I fear indicate a very disturbing twist on the policing of protest and tolerance of basic civil liberties. Simple stuff like having to commit a crime in order to be arrested or the basic right to express dissent"

It is just following a trend that has been going on in the UK for years and looks set to continue unabated.

 

[revlon]

http://www.lesbilicious.co.uk#ixzz1L1PGexLx


http://web.orange.co.uk/article/news/arrests_amid_royal_wedding_disruption_plot

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...fficers-disgust-Royal-Wedding-riot-thugs.html



http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/306124

I'm sure there are lots more.

okay, so not a large group of people but a large number of different groups of people, in different places doing different things.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Some very interesting comments on this thread, it has sure made the scales fall from my eyes about the politics of some posters who seem to change their view depending on personalities and not politics

On the wider issue I think I agree with dylans where he says "Police actions that seem quite unprecedented and actions that I fear indicate a very disturbing twist on the policing of protest and tolerance of basic civil liberties. Simple stuff like having to commit a crime in order to be arrested or the basic right to express dissent"

It is just following a trend that has been going on in the UK for years and looks set to continue unabated.

Nobody is defending this. But it isn't something new. It isn't really an escalation of repression as dylans is making out. That is all. I for one sincerely hope that it is successfully challenged in the courts, but the state hasn't revealed a previously hidden authoritarian streak with this. That streak was always there.

 

[ymu]

okay, so not a large group of people but a large number of different groups of people, in different places doing different things.

What the fuck difference does that make?

 

[revlon]

http://www.lesbilicious.co.uk#ixzz1L1PGexLx


http://web.orange.co.uk/article/news/arrests_amid_royal_wedding_disruption_plot

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...fficers-disgust-Royal-Wedding-riot-thugs.html



http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/306124

I'm sure there are lots more.

that said, ratstar, offmarket and grow heathrow had nothing to do with anything anti-royal wedding so whatever their political opinions are they were not "contrary to that of a state organised event".

Again this habit of clumping stuff together isn't helping.

 

[revlon]

What the fuck difference does that make?

what indeed

 

[dylans]

that said, ratstar, offmarket and grow heathrow had nothing to do with anything anti-royal wedding so whatever their political opinions are they were not "contrary to that of a state organised event".

Again this habit of clumping stuff together isn't helping.

Trying to claim that these arrests and raids had nothing in common is absurd. They all suffered arrest or harassment of one sort or another as part of an attempt at political policing prior to the wedding.

 

[revlon]

Trying to claim that these arrests and raids had nothing in common is absurd. They all suffered arrest or harassment of one sort or another as part of an attempt at political policing prior to the wedding.

look at what you wrote -

Genuine questions because I am trying to find a precident for a large group of people who on the whole had made their peaceful intentions very explicit, being arrested before committing any crime, solely on the basis that their political opinions were contrary to that of a state organised event

- ratstar offmarket and grow heathrow on the whole did not make their peaceful intentions very explicit because they had no intentions to do anything
- ratstar people were arrested not on the basis their political opinions were contrary to that of a state organised event because ratstar people have offered no opinions on the state organised event. NO anarchist group had given any indictation of doing anything for the royal wedding.

- there is no large group of people who made their peaceful intentions very explicit, show me where this large group of people made there peaceful intentions very explicit. You're just making shit up.

 

[dylans]

look at what you wrote -

Genuine questions because I am trying to find a precident for a large group of people who on the whole had made their peaceful intentions very explicit, being arrested before committing any crime, solely on the basis that their political opinions were contrary to that of a state organised event

- ratstar offmarket and grow heathrow on the whole did not make their peaceful intentions very explicit because they had no intentions to do anything
- ratstar people were arrested not on the basis their political opinions were contrary to that of a state organised event because ratstar people have offered no opinions on the state organised event. NO anarchist group had given any indictation of doing anything for the royal wedding.

- there is no large group of people who made their peaceful intentions very explicit, show me where this large group of people made there peaceful intentions very explicit. You're just making shit up.

Yes you are right and no one was arrested either. I'm making that up too

 

[revlon]

Yes you are right and no one was arrested either. I'm making that up too

you're becoming incredibly hard work

 

[laptop]

• the movement against the monarchy protests,
• the fairford coach protest
• raids on the button factory and other squats before j18,
• as well as pre-emptive squat raids before the mayday protests,
• countless raids on protest camps

• 114 people in Nottingham before the declared-peaceful Ratcliffe action, 2010
• hundreds or thousands on their way to pickets during the miners' strike, 1980s
• the Battle of the Beanfield, 1985
• IIRC the Peace Convoy on the way to Molesworth Peace Camp, 1983

none of this is new, if the state is rattled they'll happily break the law themselves and pay out a few quid afterwards

This. Or several hundred thou in the case of the Fairford kidnapping.

 

[dylans]

you're becoming incredibly hard work

And your becoming very tedious and boring. Off to watch Zulu. see ya

 

[OneStrike]

[video]http://goo.gl/2OAm4[/video]

Footage of a snatch squad arresting someone in Soho square, he was singing a song about it 'being a fascist regime'!

[url]http://goo.gl/2OAm4

 

[Pickman's model]

Or several hundred thou in the case of the Fairford kidnapping.

this would be the several hundred thou fairford people are still waiting for.

 

[Pickman's model]

the movement against the monarchy protests, the fairford coach protest

raids on the button factory and other squats before j18, as well as pre-emptive squat raids before the mayday protests, FIT teams turning up outside peoples houses and following them round all day, meetings broken up/LARC raided before DSEi etc, countless raids on protest camps

none of this is new, if the state is rattled they'll happily break the law themselves and pay out a few quid afterwards

in all honesty you'll have to admit that the mam people had in fact finished protesting. the fairford people never got to the protest.

 

[Pickman's model]

http://www.lesbilicious.co.uk#ixzz1L1PGexLx


http://web.orange.co.uk/article/news/arrests_amid_royal_wedding_disruption_plot

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...fficers-disgust-Royal-Wedding-riot-thugs.html



http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/306124

I'm sure there are lots more.

i thought some time ago you were someone of substance. but now i find you're nothing more than a mealy-mouthed liar. you're being dishonest here, as well you know. your criteria:

Genuine questions because I am trying to find a precident for a large group of people who on the whole had made their peaceful intentions very explicit, being arrested before committing any crime, solely on the basis that their political opinions were contrary to that of a state organised event

ok. on what basis do you include the royal wedding street party in scotland, which ascended into violence? from the mail article you quote:

Before the event, organisers JJ Gardner & Robbie Seath urged party-goers to 'take it easy, help us keep the rubbish under control and remember that there will be other folk in the park who aren't quite as Royalist/Party mad as ourselves'.

it was a royalist party, you thick fuck. so its inclusion here makes you look fucking stupid. no more than you deserve, of course. if you lie about something like that being an anti-royalist event, what else will you lie about?

let's see. what about the 68 people banned from parts of central london. you make it sound like these people were in fact banned in connection with the royal wedding, and you obviously believe the police in this instance. people being banned from westminster was a standard bail condition for people nicked on the student protests. the police are here simply continuing the practice of banning people from that borough. indeed, the web.orange link makes it clear:

Around 70 people are now banned from the City of Westminster as part of their bail conditions after being arrested or charged over various previous alleged disorder offences.

the police have been giving people similar bail conditions for years now, it's certainly nothing new. people i know have been banned from all of london under bail conditions. and breaking a police bail condition, though it may lead to arrest, is not a crime.

you also seem to think that the zombie wedding and the queer resistance people were two separate things - certainly it comes across from the way you've broken up the (unattributed) quotes. they were in fact the same, as one of your links makes clear.