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Scottish local government elections May 4th 2017

Are you advising people to vote Tory?
No. I don't know what my position would be on another independence referendum and I don't have a vote anyway. But if preserving the union was of high priority to someone, and voting Tory was the only way to achieve that, then I can see that it might make sense for them to make that tactical vote even if they wouldn't normally vote Tory.
 
No. I don't know what my position would be on another independence referendum and I don't have a vote anyway. But if preserving the union was of high priority to someone, and voting Tory was the only way to achieve that, then I can see that it might make sense for them to make that tactical vote even if they wouldn't normally vote Tory.
My point would be that in my view they have their priorities disasterously wrong, and I'd advise them to reexamine those. With which view I think we began this correspondence and, neatly, end it.
 
My point would be that in my view they have their priorities disasterously wrong, and I'd advise them to reexamine those. With which view I think we began this correspondence and, neatly, end it.
I realise that's your view. My comment was not do do with your view but the suggested means of persuasion which seemed to me to be an argument that made assumptions about strength of feeling on the independence issue. Obviously your political position is a firm one on the left/right axis and that is your starting point. Your support for independence is derived from that - not from some kind of patriotism or anti English sentiment or anything like that - it's a means to an end. But I think the fact is that many people don't have a firm position on that left/right axis; it's not their starting point for decisions related to independence. That seems rather obvious from these results where a large number of voters have moved from Labour to Tory.

"Pointing out" to people that preserving the union is not worth voting Tory for isn't going to work, I don't think. Of course I may have read too much into the way you put it, but it seems to betray an assumption about what voters' priorities are. It's just like Brexit; it turns out (by my reading) that a large number of voters are more interested in the Brexit question than they are about loyalty to one or other of the ideologies that up until recently we assumed were the main things driving which party people vote for. Same in Scotland with independence.

This also relates to my previous comment about a certain perceived wisdom that Scots are inherently more socialist cthan the UK as a whole, something I've always been highly sceptical about. In the previous indyref this was a common theme - Scotland would be better off with its own government because it would be more socialistic than a UK government. I don't really buy that (in fact, what I see as the strongest argument for independence is one that you have often made, relating to the benefits of smaller units of government and power being less removed from the people) and these local elections - to me - support my belief that an independent Scotland could quite easily end up with a Tory government.

On a more general note, "the left" (I don't really like using that term because it seems to be becoming increasingly meaningless) I think needs to accept that a big bunch of working class voters just don't buy in to the same kind of ideology that the kind of folk that post on urban75 do. While those groups might take equal pleasure in slagging off toffs and complaining about establishment rule, it's recently become rather clear that for a significant number of people "Labour through and through" doesn't mean dedicated to socialist ideology or even working class solidarity - it means a cultural tradition which, it turns out, is ready to be cast off when other issues, like Brexit and Scottish independence come into play.

And in this instance, I don't think the get-out clause of claiming that nu-Labour offers nothing significant over the Tories can be used, because at the moment Labour are offering voters a set of policies that are more genuinely socialist than has been the case for many years, unless I have been duped by Corbyn propaganda. That shift in basic policy approach doesn't seem to have been enough to counteract a tendency to vote according to nationalist/unionist preference, which we seem to be accepting as the explanation for the move to SNP and Tory. So we are back to the question of what's more important to people - their position in left/right politics, or their feelings about the worth of the UK and the EU. At the moment it seems like the latter trumps the former, and those who think it should be the other way around are massively failing to persuade people.
 
...these local elections - to me - support my belief that an independent Scotland could quite easily end up with a Tory government...

When did Scotland last vote in a Tory government?

After independence, I would expect a bit of chopping and changing re. political parties. Labour, for instance, will have to re-group and, with any luck, remember what is was for, once they're away from the "team up with Tories to spite the SNP" way of thinking.

Some people will leave the SNP for a new-ish Labour party, some for the Scottish Socialist Party, some for the Greens, even some for the Tories, although I think that last one will be the smallest.
 
teuchter I had hoped to address your point about the fallacy of Scots being "naturally" more left wing than the English, but it's going to take more than one word, and I'm busier today than I'd realised.

I know I've discussed this in the past on here, but it's probably time it was addressed again.

I agree that Scottish people are not naturally more left wing than English people. There are reasons for the myth, though, and these are structural.

First let’s put to bed the idea that Scots are “naturally” left wing. If that were the case, why did a majority of Scots (50.1%) vote Tory in 1955 (returning 36 Conservative and Scottish Unionist Party MPs to Labour’s 34)? That is an outright majority of the popular vote, not just the largest party.

It’s true that in that same year the Conservatives won an outright majority of the popular vote in England, but in that same year in Wales an outright majority voted for Labour (57.6%), something that has never happened in Scotland. That’s right: Labour has never had an outright majority of the popular vote in Scotland. It wasn't until 1964 that Labour began to overtake the Conservative and Unionists in Scotland in terms of share of the vote. In that year, though, the Conservatives still managed 40.6% of the Scottish vote, compared with 44% in England.

So what happened? Why the apparent divergence between Scotland and England that we see today?

Well, first of all it is worth remembering that just as Labour has never had an outright majority of the popular vote in Scotland, so the Tories never had an outright majority of the popular vote in England after that 1955 general election. Thatcher never once had a majority of the popular vote in England. In each of her general elections, a majority of English voters voted against her party.

True, the Tory percentages in England during the Thatcher era were in the 40s, while in Scotland they began at 31.4% in 1979, and began to slip into the 20s. But even in 1992, more than a quarter of Scots were still voting Tory. (By 2010, it was only 16.7%).

However, hold onto one salient point here: in more than half a century, the Tories have never managed more than half of the votes cast either in the UK as a whole or in England alone.

The reason that they have had government majorities (that is, a majority of seats in Westminster, as opposed to a majority of votes) is the first past the post electoral system (FPTP). It’s seats that count, not votes. There are a huge number of seats in Westminster that are safe seats. It’s around 400, give or take, depending on various factors. They tend not to change hands. And even then, some don’t “matter” as their MP will not form part of a government majority (eg SNP seats). In 2010 there were 650 constituencies, but only upwards of 150 seats – 23% of seats or so – were “marginal”. The average Westminster seat has not changed hands since the 1960s; fewer than one-in-ten seats has changed hands in 12 of the last 17 general elections since 1950. Furthermore, marginal seats are not evenly spread. I don’t want to get into the complicated algorithms, but there are more marginal seats in the South of England than there are total seats in Scotland. It is in the handful of marginal seats that Westminster elections are really fought.

There were around 190 marginal seats in the 2015 general election; 29% of constituencies. Nor were all of these as hotly contested: only a tiny proportion saw the highest campaign spending*, usually in three-way marginals.

Nor is that the end of the matter. Within each constituency in that handful, only a small margin separates the first placed party from the second placed. And it is influencing those margins that Westminster politics tailors itself towards.

The majority of seats (in normal times) can be relied upon, so the policies are tailored towards placating those swing voters in that handful of marginal seats. Traditional Westminster wisdom holds that these represent “Middle England”, and all three Westminster parties calibrate their policies towards not offending them. The media, especially press, but also broadcast, plays its part in perpetuating this traditional, individualist, centre-right “common sense” orthodoxy. The New Labour phenomenon was built on that. As was Miliband’s promise to ape Tory austerity ideology.

Any party will stepping out of line would risk losing those swing voters, the funding of big business, or being called “loony” by the press, as Corbyn can attest, despite his policies being in the mainstream of what was the Post War Consensus, but is now deemed old fashioned and loopy. However, the majority British public - including the majority of Conservative voters – hold very different views to those of the parties. The vast majority of the British public, including English voters, including even Tory voters, wants the NHS to stay in public ownership. They also support re-nationalising the energy and rail companies, and they opposed the sale of Royal Mail. However, there is no party with a chance of winning offering those policies that English voters can vote for. Not even Corbyn has satisfied those demands.There is therefore a democratic deficit in England as well.

The people of England are not so out of step with the people of Scotland. It is the Westminster political classes that are out of step with the people. There is a perfect storm of inter-party ideological homogeneity, business funding, media manufacture of consent, and neoliberal consensus in the ruling classes.

Why Scotland was perceived as different is to do with the historic role of the Scottish ruling elite. Civil society in Scotland pre-devolution was heavily weighted towards the public sector precisely because neither Edinburgh nor Glasgow was London: the Scottish middle classes were disproportionately employed by the state, by non governmental organisations, and so on. They were in effect the ruling elite of a client state; functionaries in the pre-devolution apparatus. The Scottish media, as the media always is, was staffed by representatives of that class. They wrote about what they knew, about the milieu they inhabited. "Real people" in their case were not employed in London's Square Mile institutions, but disproportionately in St Andrew's House, in various commissions, in the management structures of state owned industries. They were pro-Union, because their position depended on it. During the 1979 devolution referendum they were much more equivocal than in the 1997 re-run. What had changed was Thatcherism, which challenged and dismantled the institutions that employed them. And since they were the Scottish media, they nurtured a narrative of difference. While the media in England was pro-Thatcher, the media in Scotland became more and more hostile, even formerly Tory papers like the then Glasgow Herald.

I'd like to go more into this, but I've already taken longer than I intended. And I'd like to address too the Herald's swing back to the Tories now that it feels the need to defend the Union.

And I'd like to correct your assumption that the reason for supporting Scottish independence is that "Scotland would be better off with its own government because it would be more socialistic than a UK government". I don't make that crude case, nor do I base it on any assumption of a more "socialist" population in Scotland. Indeed, as we are seeing, the Labour vote was not a socialist vote (indeed just as Labour was not a socialist party).

There's much more to say but I'm already running late.

*NB. Fraud cases pending.
 
teuchter

And I'd like to correct your assumption that the reason for supporting Scottish independence is that "Scotland would be better off with its own government because it would be more socialistic than a UK government". I don't make that crude case, nor do I base it on any assumption of a more "socialist" population in Scotland.

I don't make any assumption that that's your reason. As I said my understanding is that your reasons are more to do with size of government and closeness to the population, and as I said those are the arguments that I find most convincing.

I do think it's what a lot of people think though. It's a view I saw widely expressed during the referendum.
 
I don't make any assumption that that's your reason. As I said my understanding is that your reasons are more to do with size of government and closeness to the population, and as I said those are the arguments that I find most convincing.
I do make those points, but again for a reason, not necessarily in and of themselves.

(I'll try to come back to this when I can).
 
teuchter. Was just searching the old indyref thread to see if there were any posts outlining my position, to save me rewriting it and discovered that a great many of my posts there were to you. So I'm just going to say: my position hasn't changed in any significant way since then.
 
So your dismissing as a twat anyone who has a problem with the wee bigot cunt that is wings?

And anyone who dares post on a thread about an MP about whom serious allegations have been made is somehow working against 'the movement'?

And you have the cheek to complain about supposed allegations of cultism?

you're*

Anyway...I'd like to turn this positive if it's possible. It's not about what's happened other places in other times, what's happening now in other places. It's not about what happened in your life or your neighbour's life or your enemies life. Not about mine either.

It's about grabbing the chance to do something different from what we're being given, good or bad it's ours.

Because we live on scraps given to us. You understand that concept?

It's about what a fair amount of the people in Scotland, have decided to go for. They're not all one class, they're not all one religion, they're not anything.
 
Expert exposes the myth of Tory working class revival

"ONE of the UK’s leading political scientists has dismissed claims that the Scottish Tories are enjoying an upsurge in working class support


"Curtice said: "The Tories didn't win Shettleston in that sense. It was the threshold they reached. It was because of the proportional system.

"The Tory vote went up mainly in areas like the North East, Aberdeenshire and the Borders – middle class parts of these areas – where they used to win seats in the 1980s and in 1992," he said. "Those are the places where the Tory vote went up the most – middle class areas. It was here that there was this bedrock of Tory support.""
 
That's interesting but a bit poor that there's no link back to the source of the comments or the context in which he made them.
 
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