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Science literacy: how confident are you?

In a way I wish statistics has been better taught.

I work in stats these days (well, kind of at the intersection of a few subjects) and can really bore people at parties about how fascinating I find it. :D

Especially with relation to cognitive biases, and how some completely counter-intuitive things can be shown to be true. I think I like this stuff for the same reason I'm idiotically impressed by simple magic tricks.
 
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I failed badly at science at school, in large part because I was really good at English, History etc and there was that binary split between the sciences and the humanities. I knew I’d end up doing “the humanities” at some point so I felt less invested in “the sciences”.

But actually, I was interested and would probably have been good at them if encouraged. I followed biology with ease amd enthusiasm right up til we got to the heart, which then became a plumbing diagram and I fell behind. Much later, on learning that the heart is a spiral, I had a flashback to that moment in biology class when I stopped learning and I realised it was because the way the heart was understood and taught back then was absurdly limited and in some ways wrong. Something instinctive in me had gone “nope” and shut down.

Physics excited me and occupied my imagination but the nuts and bolts of it (the rules and equations) bored me rigid, in large part because I’m discalculic and really struggle with numbers. My teacher always said I was bright but didn’t apply myself. I was asking smart-arse questions about black holes and quantum weirdness but I didn’t see the point of knowing how bouancy works

Maths was a painful chore. I have come to realise that if I really concentrate and apply myself, by a combination of clumsy sums on paper, convoluted work with a calculator, crib notes to remind me of the formulae and the knowledge that others find it much less confusing then I do, I can work through arithmetic. But this was always going to get in the way of chemistry and physics, and wasn’t recognised at school, so I floundered.

Chemistry was like a glass castle I could never find my way into. I could see all these fascinating structures and shapes inside but because I couldn’t get inside the castle, I couldn’t walk around the structures and get any sense of perspective, context, how they related to one another etc. I got a risible 2% on my O level mock and was asked to drop the subject, which was a relief to all concerned. I did manage to cause a few contained explosions in the lab though, which increased my standing in the school.

Once I left school, I pretty much forgot about science altogether.

But then I started picking up copies of New Scientist and reading them cover to cover, and doing the “did you know.... listen to this...” stuff, and my boyfriend bought me a subscription, which I still have now (even though it’s not as good as it was).

And in my early forties I went to university to do a BSc. in health sciences. Having no science qualifications, I had to do the foundation course, which was essentially one year to bring me up to A level standard in maths physics biology and chemistry. I was scared, but very motivated and utterly committed. And I got top marks in all subjects.

I remember a conversation I had with the chemistry teacher, about half way through the first semester, that went something like this:

  • I feel as if I’m on the verge of understanding chemistry, as a topic and in the round, as a concept, but I realise I’m actually a long way off from that, and the more I learn the less I understand the bigger picture. I’m feeling quite lost.
  • What is it that would help you, do you think?
  • Not sure... I think I want to ask some particular questions about chemistry and how it works, and that might help me.
  • Okay, what are the questions you'd like to ask?
  • I don’t know! I think that’s the problem: I’m not even sure what questions to ask in order to get to the answer want.
  • Okay, well wait until the end of the course and I think you’ll have a better idea of the questions you need to be asking...

And then in the last week of the year, right before the final exams, towards the end of the lecture, he said “Sheila, do you now have a better idea of the questions you’d like to ask?” and I did, because he was such a good teacher. But I also realised that I am not a chemist by nature, despite finding it fascinating.

I can get a handle on it while studying it, and I got good results in exams and all my lab work was good. But I don’t understand it instinctively as I do with biology, and certainly not well enough to explain it to anyone else. I did have some wonderful “aha!” moments, especially with valency and molarity, really basic stuff which at least make me feel that I’m not completely illiterate in these fundamental areas.

I understand organic chemistry, and biochemistry enough to know things like how pH buffering works in the body, how plant compounds interact with human physiology etc. I think I have a competance here that is above average.

I know what sesqueterpines are and the physiological effects they have, shit like that. I do know enough chemistry to understand pharmacognosy and pharmacology. At least enough to know how to look stuff up and work through a paper.

When the BSc. started, right from the start I was looking forward to doing my dissertation. It was a research university and because it was an honours degree, we had to do original research. Other students were opting for surveys, qualitative studies etc. but I knew I wanted to do a lab based project, and I did. I was praised by the faculty for my synthesis, and I had to go to other universities to access equipment and expertise. It was really exciting, and I hope one day to be able to follow up on that as a post grad.

However, statistics is a stubborn blank for me, and I know it. I think that’s because of the discalcula. But at least I do know that I don’t have a great handle on statistics, so I have to seek out support, input, reliable sources for explanation and ask for help unravelling it all. Like, when I was deciding what treatment to accept for cancer, I looked at the stats and asked for help, and went back the oncologist and discussed it with him and he admitted that yes, the benefits were not as great as he had originally suggested. So I knew enough to question what he was saying, but not enough to work it out for myself; I knew enough to be able to pursue my queries and have a conversation, but only with support from other places.

Botany was easy for me because it was so interesting. Having a deep interest in plants, learning the names was just adding detail to my own observations. And the functions are so similar to physiological functions in biology that it was dead easy for me to get my head around how plants breathe and move nutrients around.

Ecology was so easy as to be boring. It was all so obvious and self evident, apart from the maths. I can’t think of a single “aha!” moment I had studying ecology. Perhaps because I’d had an excellent geography teacher at school, who had covered a lot of ecology in her lessons.

I had to pass exams in health sciences to the same level as a doctor, and I did really well. I now teach myself, at entry level and at university level, so I feel that a have a good understanding of those topics. And I love science enough to keep looking for new knowledge and keep pressing on with my leanring.

For my dissertation, I needed to use some higher maths,as well as a bunch of other stuff that necessitated deep study, and for the duration of that project I felt that my brain was working at some higher level. I neglected non-cerebral duties like eating, brushing my hair, housechores, and it was an extraordinary experience. My partner at that time would bring me a sarnie and a cuppa and leave them on my desk and I’d not notice. I went directly from desk to bed, fall into dreams of what I’d been working on, and immediately on waking I’d go back to my desk. I resented the time it took to go pee.

Afterwards I realised why fewer women than men get to work like this: not because we can’t or don’t want to, but because we don’t get supported by our partners to work exclusively on the project in the way that men do.

I love science, and I love study. I love the scientific endeavour, I think it’s one of our greatest human achievements. I think it’s as important to know about Faraday and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and the laws of thermodynamics and photosynthesis as it is to know about Shakespeare and events leading up to the worlds wars.

What I feel really uncomfortable with is the way science is often invoked as a kind of faith based belief system, employed to stymie discussion and debate. Science is about asking questions, and too often it’s used as a tool to shut down debate.

There are really important lacunae in our understanding (for instances,just for starters, as mentioned above, the problems with parallel lines... or wtf is going on with the double-slit experiment... the hard problem of consciousness... etc... but also at the more local level too) and I find it frustrating that there’s is this weird general belief that science knows everything.

All the real scientists I’ve ever encountered are filled with uncertainty, doubts, questions, curiosity... but I see a lot of stubborn insistence and certainty amongst those who stifle debate with declarations such as “the science tells us...science says... that’s not scientific...”


tl;dr
I love science, I’m good at some of it, poor at other bits. I don’t like it when people’s say “yeah but science” to shut down debate.
That is an exquisitely beautiful post.

Thank you.
 
Ok you sciencey people, who can explain these two charts to me, in English, such that I can properly understand what they mean?

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Needs a bit more context (for me, anyway). At first glance it looks like we're talking about plasma transfusion therapy. Is this from the recent paper in Nature.
It is from a recent post by 2hats in the vaccine thread.

I can see that it is comparing recent UK and SA variants to the original Wuhan virus. I don't understand what the Y axis is and what the plots themselves represent nor the lines between plots.
 
It is from a recent post by 2hats in the vaccine thread.

I can see that it is comparing recent UK and SA variants to the original Wuhan virus. I don't understand what the Y axis is and what the plots themselves represent nor the lines between plots.

Have you tried asking 2hats? :)
 
I did actually ask him on another chart, but if I am honest I didn't fully understand his response.

I'll leave it to someone who has been reading that thread then.
Can't seem to throw a brick in urban these days without hitting an expert immuno-epidemiologist. ;)
 
My science education.. did biology maths and chemistry to A level (to please a parent) and failed them all.
I really struggled with applied maths, whereas pure maths wasn’t so difficult.
Biology, I think I failed because I didn’t have the right skills or style to pass it. I have retained a lot of the information I learned.
Chemistry, I’m fine with basic stuff, but never was interested enough by the subject as a whole to engage with it.
I continue to have a mental block against all things physics. Eg electricity, rainbows, radio waves. No matter how many times someone tries to explain them to me I just don’t get it. Even people I like or share ideas with.
Science Fiction... Due to parent mentioned above, I read some in my teens. Probably mostly Arthur C Clark. I haven’t read any for the last 30+ years and have no interest in reading more.
Also all John Wyndham and that sort of thing.
I would severely doubt that anyone fails a subject because they, the learner are at fault.

I'm a teacher now, so feel qualified, if uncertainly justified, in saying that lots of teachers want to teach in the way they think things should be taught, rather than in the way that individual learners need. That's partly for the practical reason that it's hard to teach a group of different people in a multitude of ways, but also because the managerial, performance-related pressures on staff make it even harder, despite the headline ethos being all about learner-centred education (these days).

My feeling is that if you didn't learn it, the teaching (not necessarily the teacher), or the curriculum are what failed, not you. That was my experience at school, as a student with unrecognised ADHD, and it's the standard I try to apply to myself now, as a teacher, although it's difficult to manage in the face of employers who have instructed us to do less CPD and more admin. (Wtf?!)

It's really upsetting to think that anyone leaves education, especially school-age education, thinking that they have failed. But that's probably not going to change unless everything else about how we live changes too.

Way to make yourself really miserable, Mation :thumbs:
 
Chemistry was like a glass castle I could never find my way into. I could see all these fascinating structures and shapes inside but because I couldn’t get inside the castle, I couldn’t walk around the structures and get any sense of perspective, context, how they related to one another etc. I got a risible 2% on my O level mock and was asked to drop the subject, which was a relief to all concerned. I did manage to cause a few contained explosions in the lab though, which increased my standing in the school.

Chemistry is poorly taught in schools IMO. I recently heard a simple explanation for the energetics of chemical bonding that encapsulates all the 'ionic' and 'covalent' stuff and could be understood by just about anyone, but it's not taught at secondary level because...unspecfied reasons. Instead we have to teach that this thing bonds with this other thing like this because it just fucking does OK.

Last week I watched a teacher struggle and struggle to get a bunch of year 8's to recite by rote 'the nucleus contains protons and neutrons'. They just couldn't get hold of that sentence, probably because nobody had told them what a nucleus was, what a proton was, what a neutron was or why they should care. Might as well have been getting them to recite the same sentence in Chinese for all the meaning they were able to attach to it.
 
It is from a recent post by 2hats in the vaccine thread.

I can see that it is comparing recent UK and SA variants to the original Wuhan virus. I don't understand what the Y axis is and what the plots themselves represent nor the lines between plots.
I don't understand it either, particularly the lines. A title and caption might help (not having a go; I don't think you've cropped them out), but then again, they might not. It's really not clear, without the context.
 
2hats post is here: Possible vaccines/treatment(s) for Coronavirus | Page 43 | urban75 forums and there are quite a lot of other plots on those pages, (in that thread) none of which I can decifer properly / fully.

Just seems to be saying (at this point in the discussion) that not all antibodies are equal when it comes to Covid-19 ie. you can have a lot of antibodies, but their effect against a different strain to which you were exposed (or were vaccinated against) varies considerably. These appear to be serological studies, so the relevance of this in practice isn't clear to me, but the idea of future vaccines coming along that target multiple strains (like we do with the flu vaccine) seems reasonable. I expect the assumption is that these kinds of results will guide further clinical investigation - it's not my area but seems plausible that in practice a very large number of suboptimal antibodies might still work fine against most conceivable virus titres (ie. the number of viruses getting into the body on a single exposure). Much as in these kinds of internet meditation.

I might have all of this wrong, but I find that thread goes into a lot of detail about stuff I can't be especially arsed with. :)
 
I would severely doubt that anyone fails a subject because they, the learner are at fault.

It's really upsetting to think that anyone leaves education, especially school-age education, thinking that they have failed. But that's probably not going to change unless everything else about how we live changes too.

Way to make yourself really miserable, Mation :thumbs:
this is largely why my father lectured part time for the Open University for 40 years. The opportunities to find a way to succeed academically (obviously not the only, nor most important measure of success) are far less than they were back in the day if you’re failed by the school system. There is much less adult education of all sorts. When I was a kid my parents were always going to nightschool for something. My dad, an engineer who got HNC and an HND on day release as an apprentice and an MSc part time when I was a toddler, got his French degree in his 70s.
 
A Foucauldian analysis says that the point of examination within education is to create a documented hierarchy* in which individuals are subjectified into accepting their place in that hierarchy. Thinking that any part of that process is for the benefit of the pupils is 180 degrees in the wrong direction. In other words, yes, it’s a terrible way of teaching if your aim is to open the minds of students and encourage real understanding for all... but whoever said that was the aim of those that created this particular system of education?

*and more besides, like creating a norm of achievement and a way of judging against that norm such the judgment is internalised and the desire to avoid that judgment governs the mind of the one subjected to it without the need for further external intervention
 
Ok you sciencey people, who can explain these two charts to me, in English, such that I can properly understand what they mean?

View attachment 259608
Ok, so having gone to the paper these figures are from, I think that the lines link serum results from one person, and the position of the red dots along the y axis (in the chart on the left) indicate how well the antibodies produced through natural infection with the original Wuhan version of the virus, bind to the spike proteins of that and 3 subsequent variants, including the notorious ones from the UK and Brazil.

I'm still not sure about the chart on the right. It's the same type of comparison, but I'm not sure what of. Or, indeed, of the conclusion :D
 
Ok, so having gone to the paper these figures are from, I think that the lines link serum results from one person, and the position of the red dots along the y axis (in the chart on the left) indicate how well the antibodies produced through natural infection with the original Wuhan version of the virus, bind to the spike proteins of that and 3 subsequent variants, including the notorious ones from the UK and Brazil.

I'm still not sure about the chart on the right. It's the same type of comparison, but I'm not sure what of. Or, indeed, of the conclusion :D
I think the figures on the y axis are quite technical properties of the virus.
 
A Foucauldian analysis says that the point of examination within education is to create a documented hierarchy* in which individuals are subjectified into accepting their place in that hierarchy. Thinking that any part of that process is for the benefit of the pupils is 180 degrees in the wrong direction. In other words, yes, it’s a terrible way of teaching if your aim is to open the minds of students and encourage real understanding for all... but whoever said that was the aim of those that created this particular system of education?

*and more besides, like creating a norm of achievement and a way of judging against that norm such the judgment is internalised and the desire to avoid that judgment governs the mind of the one subjected to it without the need for further external intervention

I remember my A-level biology teacher saying something very similar to this to my class. :D

As sorting algorithms go, it’s ludicrously expensive.
 
I think the figures on the y axis are quite technical properties of the virus.
Technical, yes. And properties of the immune system's response to the virus.

I think the y axis is showing what percentage of the total amount of binding by antibodies in the sera could be attributed to binding to each variant. I'm not sure whether that total is within, or between people, though. Or whether I'm correct!
 
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Technical, yes. I think the y axis is showing what percentage of the total amount of binding by antibodies in the sera could be attributed to binding to each variant. I'm not sure whether that total is within, or between people, though. Or whether I'm correct!

I think you are correct about these being individual patients. But that’s because I’m familiar with a similar study, not because I can be arsed to look at that thread. :D
 
I agree with this. I did maths, further maths (both pure maths with mechanics) and physics for A-level, and an engineering degree.

In a way I wish statistics has been better taught.

I’m an engineer, so we generally follow laws and add statistical uncertainty at the end of the process. Social scientists are trying to remove the statistical uncertainty to determine the rules.


And then it turns out it’s all bollocks because all the studies have been conducted on WEiIRD people.
 
I work in stats these days (well, kind of at the intersection of a few subjects) and can really bore people at parties about how fascinating I find it. :D

Especially with relation to cognitive biases, and how some completely counter-intuitive things can be shown to be true. I think I like this stuff for the same reason I'm idiotically impressed by simple magic tricks.
This is totally me with with magic tricks :D
 
I would severely doubt that anyone fails a subject because they, the learner are at fault.

I'm a teacher now, so feel qualified, if uncertainly justified, in saying that lots of teachers want to teach in the way they think things should be taught, rather than in the way that individual learners need. That's partly for the practical reason that it's hard to teach a group of different people in a multitude of ways, but also because the managerial, performance-related pressures on staff make it even harder, despite the headline ethos being all about learner-centred education (these days).

My feeling is that if you didn't learn it, the teaching (not necessarily the teacher), or the curriculum are what failed, not you. That was my experience at school, as a student with unrecognised ADHD, and it's the standard I try to apply to myself now, as a teacher, although it's difficult to manage in the face of employers who have instructed us to do less CPD and more admin. (Wtf?!)

It's really upsetting to think that anyone leaves education, especially school-age education, thinking that they have failed. But that's probably not going to change unless everything else about how we live changes too.

Way to make yourself really miserable, Mation :thumbs:


This is pretty much what my maths teacher said when I was doing the foundation course.

I was saying “how come I can do it now but failed so badly at school??” and he said “because of the way you were being taught...”
 
Chemistry is poorly taught in schools IMO. I recently heard a simple explanation for the energetics of chemical bonding that encapsulates all the 'ionic' and 'covalent' stuff and could be understood by just about anyone, but it's not taught at secondary level because...unspecfied reasons. Instead we have to teach that this thing bonds with this other thing like this because it just fucking does OK.

Last week I watched a teacher struggle and struggle to get a bunch of year 8's to recite by rote 'the nucleus contains protons and neutrons'. They just couldn't get hold of that sentence, probably because nobody had told them what a nucleus was, what a proton was, what a neutron was or why they should care. Might as well have been getting them to recite the same sentence in Chinese for all the meaning they were able to attach to it.


Right.

This was exactly my issue with it at school.

But it was also the thing I was struggling to grasp at foundation too. I realised - and the teacher confirmed for me, and you have just done too - that it’s like a book you need to read at least twice if you're going on understand it. For someone like me who doesn’t have an instinctive grasp of it, I had to kinda struggle through the entire course to get a sense of the entirety of it, so that I could go back to the beginning and start again knowing what they larger picture looks like.

That’s what I mean when I say it was like a big glass castle I couldn’t get into, and when I was trying to work out what the question is.

Some people are okay learning by rote, or trust that it will come together at some point. But people like me can’t get to the next thing unless/until I really understand this thing.

Needing to be thorough works well sometimes, but can be a real obstacle too.
 
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this is largely why my father lectured part time for the Open University for 40 years. The opportunities to find a way to succeed academically (obviously not the only, nor most important measure of success) are far less than they were back in the day if you’re failed by the school system. There is much less adult education of all sorts. When I was a kid my parents were always going to nightschool for something. My dad, an engineer who got HNC and an HND on day release as an apprentice and an MSc part time when I was a toddler, got his French degree in his 70s.


I’ve often said that education is wasted on the young.

I wish I could have gotten the basics and then deferred my Os and As til I was ready for them. Maybe be given a voucher or a deferred grant or something. I squandered a really good education with excellent teachers by fart-arsing around being a maverick pissed off school refuser. When I finally went to university in my forties I was really keen and committed. I wish I could study the O and A level stuff again, in a school room I mean, not by watching vids and reading.
 
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This is pretty much what my maths teacher said when I was doing the foundation course.

I was saying “how come I can do it now but failed so badly at school??” and he said “because of the way you were being taught...”
Yes. I've experienced it first hand and also seen it in my learners.

That 'fuck me, turns out I'm not stupid', revelation.

Makes me weep sometimes, for myself and others who spent any time thinking otherwise.
 
Interesting these observations. I was no way ready to do my O and A levels. The lessons didn't make any sense to me and I was quite immature. When I did finally get enough I was granted a place at Poly a year later because the course had filled up. So I had a gap year and was even more mature when I finally arrived to do my degree.

The difference between the me that first sat O levels and the me that turned up at Poly to do a degree was like night and day. At O levels I had no idea the point of any of it and wasn't in the slightest interested, by the time I started my degree course I wanted it!
 
I’ve often said that education is wasted on the young.

I wish I could have gotten the basics and then deferred my Os and As til I was ready for them. Maybe be government a voucher or a deferred grant or something.I squandered a really good education with excellent teachers by fart arsing around being a macerick pissed off school refuser. When I finally went to university in my forties I was really keen and committed. I wish I could study the O and a level stuff again, in a school room I mean, not by watching vids and reading.
I can't believe that you squandered it. Not at that age. Probably not at any age. There will have been good (or, rather, soundly explicable) reasons why it didn't take for you, first time round.

I do know the feeling, though; or something similar.

And oh lordy, the poor cohort on my BSc, who had to put up with me, 10 years older, asking 5 gazillion questions about everything, because I was so utterly fascinated with what I was learning, and that I was learning.

There might have been a complaint that lectures and tutorials seemed to be delivered only to me :oops:

But those same people might well have got as much out of it as I did, had they gone to university a bit later. I didn't plan to be a mature student, but it was far more beneficial than if I'd tried to go when you're first supposed to.
 
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