Revolutionary Islam

[belboid]

And insisting on some residual 'cultural' Islam or Christianity or whatever is both denying people their own agency

you are an island

 

[littlebabyjesus]

you are an island

No. I take my holidays when others do, for instance. But that no more makes me 'culturally christian' than it does a Muslim whose children also take their holidays over Christmas and Easter because they live here. Reducing the idea of cultural identity to this renders it meaningless.

 

[belboid]

No. I take my holidays when others do, for instance. But that no more makes me 'culturally christian' than it does a Muslim whose children also take their holidays over Christmas and Easter because they live here. Reducing the idea of cultural identity to this renders it meaningless.

Of course not, cos you're so so special

 

[butchersapron]

Bit of clarity here, phil. If you don't consider yourself Muslim, then you're not. It's as simple as that. And insisting on some residual 'cultural' Islam or Christianity or whatever is both denying people their own agency - if they tell you they do not consider themselves 'culturally' any religion, you should take that seriously - and also being massively simplistic about how cultures and cultural identities form - they are about far more than any named religion.

The Council of ex-Mulsims put it well in their manifesto:



This stuff matters, and people insisting that others have some intrinsic 'muslimness' or 'christianness' about them that they cannot renounce is poisonous, ill-thought-out, dangerous thinking.

You get that someone leaving a faith doesn't destroy history or the faith of others right? And that their faith and that history still plays a role in society and in individual and collective socialisation? Because you seem to me, in a fit of enlightenment pique, to suggest that your individual choice does in fact destroy history and faith. Also, and this is important, you'll find the Council of ex-Mulsims forums and other places full of people who call themselves atheists but culturally muslim.

 

[phildwyer]

Bit of clarity here, phil. If you don't consider yourself Muslim, then you're not. It's as simple as that. And insisting on some residual 'cultural' Islam or Christianity or whatever is both denying people their own agency - if they tell you they do not consider themselves 'culturally' any religion, you should take that seriously - and also being massively simplistic about how cultures and cultural identities form - they are about far more than any named religion.

The Council of ex-Mulsims put it well in their manifesto:



This stuff matters, and people insisting that others have some intrinsic 'muslimness' or 'christianness' about them that they cannot renounce is poisonous, ill-thought-out, dangerous thinking.

No offence, but you don't know what you're talking about. Muslim atheists still consider themselves culturally Muslim.

The reasons are of course historical. When modern Turkey was created out of the multi-cultural Osmanli empire, religion trumped ethnicity in determining who belonged to which state. If you were Muslim, you were a Turk, and your personal beliefs counted for nothing.

As a result, most states in the region legally require citizens to identify themselves by religious community-- not ethnicity, and certainly not personal opinion.

Until very recently for example the President of Greek Cyprus was an ethnic Turk, while the President of Turkish Cyprus was an ethnic Greek.

 

[phildwyer]

Furthermore, religious differences took millennia to form, and they are not easily displaced by 150 years of superficial secularism.

Ever discussed the ethic of revenge with a secular Jew, for instance?

 

[phildwyer]

atheists do not believe in god.

Nobody "doesn't believe in God," Fool. Self-declared atheists least of all.

You for example espouse a world-view that is manifestly formed by the Christianity you affect to despise. You are deus inversus incarnate.

I thought you'd read yer Nietzsche?

I now suggest you take a look at The End of the Affair by Grim Grin.

“I hate you, God. I hate you as though you actually exist.”

That's you that is.

 

[phildwyer]

you'll find the Council of ex-Mulsims forums and other places full of people who call themselves atheists but culturally muslim.

Indeed, the declared aim of that dubious organization is to forge a "secular Islam."

But since they have less than 100 members, world-wide, and according to their own doubtless exaggerated figures, we may well wonder how anyone could be stupid enough to regard them as a legitimate voice for anything.

Oh hang on, it was Pickman's....

 

[gentlegreen]

So what are we discussing now, "religion" or this nosnsensical "god" concept that millions of priests must be biting their lips over because it's failed to make its presence felt even to them ?

 

[belboid]

So what are we discussing now, "religion" or this nosnsensical "god" concept that millions of priests must be biting their lips over because it's failed to make its presence felt even to them ?

neither, do try and keep up

 

[gentlegreen]

so it's just Phil then ?

 

[Pickman's model]

Nobody "doesn't believe in God," Fool. Self-declared atheists least of all.

You for example espouse a world-view that is manifestly formed by the Christianity you affect to despise. You are deus inversus incarnate.

I thought you'd read yer Nietzsche?

I now suggest you take a look at The End of the Affair by Grim Grin.

“I hate you, God. I hate you as though you actually exist.”

That's you that is.

as i said above people may be influenced by the cultural milieu in which they exist but you won't find a christian or muslim atheist as to be christian or muslim you have to believe in god.

 

[Pickman's model]

so it's just Phil then ?

it's always just phil.

 

[8ball]

as i said above people may be influenced by the cultural milieu in which they exist but you won't find a christian or muslim atheist as to be christian or muslim you have to believe in god.

How about an atheist Jew?

 

[DotCommunist]

So what are we discussing now, "religion" or this nosnsensical "god" concept that millions of priests must be biting their lips over because it's failed to make its presence felt even to them ?

you literally don't understand how faith works.


Also many many christians and people of other faiths have 'felt the presence of god' or had a 'revelation' or been (heres a nu-baptisty prod one for you) 'baptised in the holy spirit'

theres also millions who don't claim that personal revelation of the divine but operate out of faith. And they aren't biting lips about god not showing up personally and handing them those lost car keys.

 

[Pickman's model]

How about an atheist Jew?

if they're atheist then they are unlikely to hold with judaism.

 

[belboid]

if they're atheist then they are unlikely to hold with judaism.

but that doesn't stop someone from being an atheist jew.

 

[phildwyer]

if they're atheist then they are unlikely to hold with judaism.

But they will still consider themselves culturally Jewish.

Do you seriously not know this?

 

[belboid]

But they will still consider themselves culturally Jewish.

Do you seriously not know this?

or even 'officially' jewish, what with it passing down the mothers side.

 

[phildwyer]

you have to believe in god.

Everyone believes in God.

God is not like the Yeti or the Loch Ness Monster. He is not a creature whose existence can be determined empirically.

God is an idea, a concept. And concepts exist, and they determine people's behavior and thus the course of history. Concepts also make it possible for human beings to experience the world, and in this sense they create the world for us.

What you can't get over is the mythological terminology in which these ideas have been expressed. But as a devotee of Nietzsche, you really should know that popular religion is "picture thinking," designed to convey complex philosophical truths to illiterate people.

Thus Nietzsche calls Christianity "neo-Platonism for the masses." Which is exactly what it is.

So if you have a problem with it, there's no point in blubbing "but God doesn't exist where is He then show me a photo etc etc." That is stupid. If you have a problem with Christianity, you need to refute Plato.

Good luck with that.

 

[Pickman's model]

But they will still consider themselves culturally Jewish.

Do you seriously not know this?

did i say they didn't? you dozy twat.

 

[Pickman's model]

Everyone believes in God.

God is not like the Yeti or the Loch Ness Monster. He is not a creature whose existence can be determined empirically.

God is an idea, a concept. And concepts exist, and they determine people's behavior and thus the course of history. Concepts also make it possible for human beings to experience the world, and in this sense they create the world for us.

What you can't get over is the mythological terminology in which these ideas have been expressed. But as a devotee of Nietzsche, you really should know that popular religion is "picture thinking," designed to convey complex philosophical truths to illiterate people.

Thus Nietzsche calls Christianity "neo-Platonism for the masses." Which is exactly what it is.

So if you have a problem with it, there's no point in blubbing "but God doesn't exist where is He then show me a photo etc etc." That is stupid. If you have a problem with Christianity, you need to refute Plato.

Good luck with that.

let's see you prove the existence of god then.

wait a minute. you tried that and fucked it up.

 

[Pickman's model]

but that doesn't stop someone from being an atheist jew.

didn't say it did. but don't let that get in your way.

 

[belboid]

didn't say it did. but don't let that get in your way.

why did you bother responding to a post saying 'how about an atheist jew' then? you now admit your reply was completely and utterly pointless.

 

[belboid]

Everyone believes in God.

God is not like the Yeti or the Loch Ness Monster. He is not a creature whose existence can be determined empirically.

God is an idea, a concept. And concepts exist,

as are the Loch Ness Monster and the Yeti. So now everyone believes in them too, by your logic.

 

[8ball]

as are the Loch Ness Monster and the Yeti. So now everyone believes in them too, by your logic.

I'm not too sure about God...

 

[Pickman's model]

why did you bother responding to a post saying 'how about an atheist jew' then? you now admit your reply was completely and utterly pointless.

let me take this in easy stages.

jews are both the adherents of a faith and an ethnic community.

someone can be a member of the ethnic community and an atheist.

so you can be an atheist jew without holding with judaism.

 

[DotCommunist]

Hannibal Lecter collected newspaper cuttings of churches caving in on parishioners heads etc. Not because it proved there is no god but because it proves there is and he's a total bastard.

 

[8ball]

let me take this in easy stages.

jews are both the adherents of a faith and an ethnic community.

someone can be a member of the ethnic community and an atheist.

so you can be an atheist jew without holding with judaism.

How about an atheist Muslim?

 

[Pickman's model]

How about an atheist Muslim?

we've covered this already.