Professionals send Brixton property prices surging by 15%

[Gramsci]

Well all politicians like to measure their schools by artificial standards so a lot may be ok on the surface in terms of results. But it doesn't change the fact that different classes and races are not going to the same schools. The education system is such that you can say you're doing well for children by providing a very narrow experience. That's not to slate the schools as teachers are usually working within a system they haven't had any say in and don't agree with.
There are so many issues when talking about inner city schools within the context of the education system, my remarks only scratch the surface of all that is wrong.

This deserves a new thread. You are knowledgeable about this subject.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

I've been keeping half an eye on this thread, but finally thought I'd post following a conversation I had the other day, at a party populated by some posh north London types, although the themes come up elsewhere. Certainly over the last 10 years conversations with middle class outsiders have gone from "oh, isn't it a bit dangerous", to "what a marvellous investment opportunity". And it's certainly things like the village and the perceived demographic change which is driving those views. Anyway, as the conversation went on I think my face reassembled that of grumpy cat and the conversation dried up. And in the future I think I'm going to start telling people I live in Tulse Hill!

Which would go some way of explaining newbie's point a few posts back, that the middle class incoming component is no longer new graduates but more established ones. I moved to Brixton 10 years ago after getting a, pretty craply paid job in Clapham North, and basically I found all inclusive rent for under £350 in a house share of fairly like minded people, who were either public sector workers like me or SOAS students. There's no way on earth my 23 year old self or any of those housemates could have afforded to live here now. It also strikes me that now much rarer (if no longer existent) private sector rent is round about the £85pw housing benefit cap for single persons under a certain age (35?).

I dunno, just a couple of random thoughts. Whilst it would be hypercritical to moan about incoming gentrifiers given I was one 10 years ago (and frankly, in this subject there's a big subjective component), there's just something deeply upsetting about people explicitly thinking of/using living in Brixton as a personal investment opportunity rather than a home for the long term.

 

[Gramsci]

And its not a problem that is specific to Brixton. See this informative website about the Elephant & Castle regeneration programme

 

[nagapie]

This deserves a new thread. You are knowledgeable about this subject.

Well it is my job. Don't know, primary schools in the area is a subject I try not to talk about too much. As the parent of a 3 year old, it raises anxiety in me. Not only about the state of the local primary schools (and I feel disloyal saying things about them as I know they will be full of dedicated staff trying to make a difference) but about the whole education system which, if I'm honest, I'd rather not put my child in at all...for at least another 3 years anyway.

Someone else can start a thread and I'll comment

 

[Gramsci]

Thought this was funny from the "Southwark Notes" website:



WANNA BUY A FLAT IN THE ELEPHANT? OUR GUIDE TO THE ESTATE AGENT LINGO…

Thinking of moving to the area? The more cynical wing of Southwark Notes has furnished us with this handy cut out ‘n’ keep translation of developer and estate agent brochure-speak.
‘VILLAGE’ – You’re surrounded by council estates on all sides.
‘NEW BUILD’ – The walls are paper thin.
‘BUZZY’ – There’s three lanes of traffic below your windowsill.
‘DIVERSE’ – People who aren’t middle-class and white live there.

CREATIVE – The artists who attracted you to the area are about to be priced out – by you.
‘EXCITING’ – Someone’s gonna have your iPhone in five minutes.
‘DYNAMIC‘ – There’s a small nightclub and two Chicken Cottages.
‘UNIQUE’ – It’s just like the other posh rabbit hutch over the road.

‘CONTEMPORARY’ – A kid with some Lego could have designed it.
‘REAL’ – There’s a big white working-class population.
‘VIBRANT’ – There’s a big Carribean population.
‘EXOTIC’ – There’s a big African population.

‘CULTURAL’ – The Imperial War Museum is up the road.
‘ICONIC’ – The buidling is lop-sided or shaped like a vegetable.
‘SUSTAINABLE’ – The architect has some put some wood on the front.
‘STUNNING’ – Expensive.

‘OASIS’ – You’re living behind huge security gates.
‘URBAN’ – It’s in London, duh!
‘EXCLUSIVE’ - You will drive to and from home so don’t have to interact locally.
‘QUARTER‘ – Basically, you’re living in a yuppiedrome.
*-) As humourists we won’t be giving up our day jobs just quite yet. We do welcome contributions to our handy guide. Pass on ‘em.

 

[Red Cat]

It was a response in a discussion in order to explain a previous post. Don't see any nose rubbing. People shouldn't have to apologise all the time because they are not facing the same hardships as others.

Elsewhere on urban posters recognise and point out that this govt/the powerful/the media are deploying techniques to divide and conquer, encouraging this group to hate that group and many efforts are made to understand where responsibility really lies and it's not with benefit claimants or people who work in the job centre, or in the public sector or the private sector etc. Those efforts are made in the brixton forum too but there's far too much falling into the trap of resenting and blaming people who can afford to stay here or move here. They are not the enemy. They're just people trying to do the best for themselves with the resources they have available to them in the system as it exists.

I don't disagree. However, I also think that it's to be expected that increasing inequality, which excludes so many from owning their own home or renting where they love living, is going to cause resentment. It's one of the things I don't miss about living in London, that feeling of resentment, being excluded, and feeling totally crap about myself because I hadn't been able to make certain decisions about a profession or buying a flat at earlier points in my life and not being able to do anything about it because things have changed so much. There isn't the possibility of recapturing, recouping. Once it's gone it's gone.

I've lived in Birmingham for 3 years now and I'm more forgiving of myself there. It's a good city, laid back and friendly, enough to do. I still miss London, am here right now, the sun is shining, and I pine awfully from time to time. I feel more myself in London than anywhere else. I think I lead a healthier, better life in Birmingham, and I think I'd find moving back to Brixton actually very difficult now, but I still have regrets. Loss is painful isn't it?

 

[Plumdaff]

Red Cat, you've summed up my feelings exactly. I wish I didn't feel resentment, but I do! Let's hope that I'm able to be kinder to myself and others in my new, non London life.

 

[Red Cat]

Aye, it's a horrible feeling. Corrosive.

Where are you going?

 

[newbie]

.

 

[Plumdaff]

Aye, it's a horrible feeling. Corrosive.

Where are you going?

Cardiff. Football wise, a hell hole, but otherwise a fantastic city where we have family and friends. It's going to be a good move for us.

 

[newbie]

the screengrabs didn't work, I'll repost in a few minutes

 

[newbie]

I've been poking around the census info.


The screengrabs of this ONS page illustrate the structural issue facing Lambeth and other innercity boroughs (Lambeth in blue, England in yellow; 2001 on the left, 2011 on the right). I can't link to the different views (grrr, flash)


People arrive in droves in their 20s, meet up, have lots of babies and then those with choices predictably leave before both primary and secondary school. That has been evident and identified and discussed for decades, but has become a bit more pronounced.

However there are now noticeably more in the 40-60 bracket than there were a decade ago, and that, I think, has been the major component of the changes over the past few years. When almost all the 20s had left by their mid-40s the home they vacated went to someone pretty much like they'd been 5 or 10 years previously. Simplistically, 25 year olds could afford a reasonable flatshare, a few years later they could get a local mortgage, then a sprog and away (clutching their "housing ladder" profits), with their younger brothers and sisters treading in their wake. Now that the middle aged are choosing to live here they're competing for, and using their economic strength to win, more of the available housing, pushing prices up. And, of course, the presence of the established middle aged makes the area more desirable- there is evidently a future here- drawing in those younger people who have better economic choices about where to live. There are at least as many 20s as there were back then, so they're obviously finding and affording somewhere to live, but they're paying significantly more- which might mean they have significantly better jobs or maybe have less disposable income after housing costs.

So rather than blame the incoming hipsters I'm suggesting that it's all the fault of the middleaged who are here past their sellby date .

This says nothing about class, wealth or anything of the sort, just age. Nor does it tell us whether the 50s have been around for years or recently arrived. The next tranche of census info is due out on 11 December, "Key Statistics for local authorities in England and Wales" which may fill in a whole lot more.

fwiw this, rather clever, graphic shows where people have recently been coming from and going to (inland only, not abroad)..

 

[newbie]

sorry MO, it now looks as though you liked a full stop . Poxy ONS, why can't they produce a sensible webpage. The data is really useful, the presentation leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

fwiw this, rather clever, graphic shows where people have recently been coming from and going to (inland only, not abroad)..

It says zero from Neath, Port Talbot. I know 5 people from Port Talbot in Brixton, never mind Lambeth.

 

[nagapie]

Many women are also choosing to have their babies much later, thereby being already established in London and not necessarily wanting to move back to somewhere, if there is somewhere to move back to.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I'; 2001 on the left, 2011 on the right). I

Other way round, isn't it?

That's a really interesting post. As you say there's a whole lot more data that would really be needed to analyse it thoroughly but you make a good point about how these things work that certainly hadn't occurred to me before.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

It says zero from Neath, Port Talbot. I know 5 people from Port Talbot in Brixton, never mind Lambeth.

It only shows people who have moved in the 12 months up to June 2011 I think.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Oh, OK, fair enough.

 

[quimcunx]

It may be indicative of people coupling up and/or having children later in life too, or not at all - more single households. Interesting graph and interpretation. Moving to the burbs for more space and garden for similar money to house a family has been around for a while. It took me a minute to spot the stubby little yellow emigration line.

I wonder if @kabbes @ymu have any thoughts on it.

 

[newbie]

It says zero from Neath, Port Talbot. I know 5 people from Port Talbot in Brixton, never mind Lambeth.

who moved in the year end June 11? tell ONS.

 

[newbie]

Other way round, isn't it?

That's a really interesting post. As you say there's a whole lot more data that would really be needed to analyse it thoroughly but you make a good point about how these things work that certainly hadn't occurred to me before.

I'm sorry it previewed properly then didn't post the grabs, and by the time I'd sorted it out it was all wrong. edited now.

 

[newbie]

Many women are also choosing to have their babies much later, thereby being already established in London and not necessarily wanting to move back to somewhere, if there is somewhere to move back to.

whatever the age of the mother, statistically the children move out with sharp steps at 5 and 10. err, I think, they've called for people who understand stats to review what I've written <trembles>

 

[newbie]

It may be indicative of people coupling up and/or having children later in life too, or not at all - more single households. Interesting graph and interpretation. Moving to the burbs for more space and garden for similar money to house a family has been around for a while. It took me a minute to spot the stubby little yellow emigration line.

I wonder if @kabbes @ymu have any thoughts on it.

more single households- good point, but this view doesn't tell us anything about that. I'm not capable of mining the data properly but if anyone can find better tools for this I'm sure we could learn a lot.

 

[leanderman]

feeling of resentment, being excluded, and feeling totally crap about myself because I hadn't been able to make certain decisions about a profession or buying a flat at earlier points in my life and not being able to do anything about it because things have changed so much. There isn't the possibility of recapturing, recouping. Once it's gone it's gone. Loss is painful isn't it?

Yes. This just about sums up the luck, randomness and hopelessness of it all.

 

[Manter]

Many women are also choosing to have their babies much later, thereby being already established in London and not necessarily wanting to move back to somewhere, if there is somewhere to move back to.

I think the 'if there is somewhere to move back to' thing is critical- how many people now have all their family in a nearby community that they feel part of? most of us are making a community wherever we end up- which may be why (to @newbie's point) older people hang around.

 

[Manter]

Frankly, for me it's plus ça change..., as it pretty much reflects what I grew up with, and from what I've been told, it can sometimes be even worse out in the 'burbs. A mate on the London/Surrey border reckoned that his youngest's school had about 70% of pupils on free meals, and almost 50% were statemented, too.

Sorry, massively behind on this thread and just catching up.... as lots of people have said for me, completely understand there is poverty, but the extent really did surprise me. And I knew Lambeth was likely to be worse than elsewhere, but, again, the sheer numbers have blown me away.

 

[Manter]

Just a minor technical point: converting a house into two flats without planning permission is not illegal. However, if the council finds out about your conversion and order you to turn it back, ignoring the enforcement notice is illegal. Funnily enough, many of the houses split without planning permission and being sold in this way belong to... Lambeth!

Lambeth never cease to amaze me... I didn't know that.

 

[quimcunx]

I have no idea what the criteria is for getting free meals.

 

[Manter]

I am going to randomly answer a bunch of stuff in a variety of different posts...

snip> divide and rule is how those in power operate.

quite. And by attacking or dismissing each other for being poor, or rich, or buying into the fallacy that all rich people are heartless arses or poor people are feckless benefits cheats, we let that divide and rule continue.

snip> in general inequality is rendered invisible. .

yes. this

Manter has always been honest about her position etc.

I doubt all of us have, including me!

there is indeed a lot of middle ground, but there is also what might be called sensitivity, and the post I quoted comes over as rubbing peoples noses in it. I've spent plenty of time in that area, in houses split into flats where friends have raised children who've now grown up and can't afford to live round here.

I certainly never meant to rub anyone's nose in anything. I am pretty honest about parts of my situation, as I don't see the point in pretending to have experiences or perspectives I don't (and would probably get caught out anyway!). There is lots I don't say or share, because frankly its no one's business, and I guess if that means some of what I say gets misinterpreted, I either have to share more or suck it up. I do not come on here looking to offend- quite the opposite in fact. I first got involved on this board because I wanted to know more about the community I live in, and love.

 

[quimcunx]

If there was a government in power that did attempt to radically redistribute wealth and power I do wonder how long the pretence ,as you put it, of being all in this together would last.

Probably not that long. I would probably describe my politics as broadly socialist. In theory a society (and world) where everyone has enough for their needs and equality is one I'd like to see. But that doesn't stop me fantasising about winning the lottery and having so much more than my actual need.

I am lucky at this point in time in that I am not being priced out of my neighbourhood. But I don't have power. I'm working class. I don't control the means of production. Lose my job and fail to get another at a similar level of pay and I'm in as precarious a position as the next person.

Anyway I would welcome a redistributive govt even if by my reckoning I personally might be a little worse off because it's not just about me and I recognise those less privileged than me are not less deserving than me. But I'm human. I would feel the same resentment* that others have referred to in their position in the current political climate, for instance. In a process of redistribution I would probably on a day to day basis see those people who will actively jostle for some advantage and feel that panic that I might lose out in the end and either join in with the self-protectionist jostling or allow myself to lose out while being resentful of the perceived advantages others are gaining.

In the selfish gene Dawkins makes an analogy of hawks and doves. The best society is all doves but if that ever happens some doves will always turn hawk. A wholly hawk society would be brutal and make society as a whole worse off. What you end up with is a continually adjusting balance of the two.

*re feeling resentment. It's perfectly understandable to me but when we express our argument for equity and social justice in terms of resentment it makes it all the easier for our overlords to dismiss it as the 'politics of envy'. Hate that phrase so much.