Political Correctness

[William of Walworth]

I have been told that WoW should also be on my ignore list, but we shall see

One idly wonders by whom ...

Ironically I am being attacked by posters using the strawman fallacy, which is taking my moderate position and exaggerating it to an extreme to make it look stupid.

<Searches for any 'moderation' n Gmarthews' position. Or indeed for any coherence, or rationality, or analysis, or nuance, or balance. Fails >

I read the Xmas article and I was happy to note that common sense came out on top of the forces I am trying to talk about. Good!

Thanks for reading it. But why 'Xmas' btw? Are you trying not to offend anyone?

Did you note the real points in that article?

1. That these stories avout Christmas being 'banned' are overwhelmingly fabricated, media-froth rubbish.
2. That those trumpeting most loudly about such 'bans' are either lying, or relying on lies, to make their 'point'?
3. That almost all of the 'common sense' you mention lies not with any imaginary backtracking from any imaginary plans to ban Christmas (as you seem to imply -- your point on that is erm a tad obscure!). But -- as Burkemann exposes in many many examples -- in not making any plans to do anything other than completely traditionally with Christmas in the first place.

People in power are fair game apparently to be attacked because their group has historically had it so good - and the principle of that stinks!

You've lost me completely there. Relevance to anything I or anyone else has said??? Point of your point?

Sure the Daily Mail and Sun etc make good money dramatising stories too far, even into strawman areas of exaggeration, but I am not particularly supporting these publications.

Yes you are -- by recycling their take on the whole 'PC' phenomenon so uncritically.

By your very use of the 'PC' phrase you implicitly endorse their lies about it and recycle their cliches. By never (at least not on here!) challenging, or even critically questioning, any 'PC gone mad' story in the mainstream media you endorse the impression that 'PC' has indeed gone mad. By being totally unaware (it seemed earlier on) of the loaded ideological agenda of the author of your Great Work, you show your absence of any critical faculties.

WoW thinks that 95% of PC gone mad stories disintegrate when looked at in detail

That's because so very many of those stories do. Only 95% is pretty generous of me I'd say (admittedly the figure was a broad brushstroke to make a point).

Prove otherwise that so vast a proportion of them don't disintegrate.

That would be be an interesting exercise for you actually, might require you to examine some of thoe stories yourelf, critically and analytically and in applying a 'how true is this really?' prism. And in depth!

but I think that figure is just too high

Rough ballpark figure sure, but one based on lengthy experience of analysing the mainstream media and their 'PC' stories sceptically and critically -- try that some time -- at length and in depth.

and the implication that we should therefore ignorethem is just laziness creating an agenda.

Where did I say ignore the stories?

I suggest analysing them critically and sceptically, with a fine toothcomb. A great idea, given that such a very large prooprtion of 'PC Outrage!!' stories are made up bollocks.

I have consistently argued against the continual usage of fallacies on these boards and I will continue to do so.

I eagerly anticpate your firing up your sophisticatred 'Myth Buster!' (R, TM) machine. Suggested target : second hand tales of some 'PC gone mad' obsessives, they have enough fallacies going on to provide some class target practice ....

 

[Gmart]

So he releases a huge selling tour and DVD based around that material and it's supposed to be evidence of a double-standard?

Besides, you nugget, there's already a book called Stupid Black Men out there (check Amazon if you don't believe me). Do you actually engage brain before you post? Your post is a load of fatuous, reason-free nonsense.

So what? You think that just because I'm wrong on this means that everything else I said is not relevant? You're just showing yourself up as exactly what I'm talking about. Sometimes you just gotta sit and think rather than just reacting and following the PC line unthinkingly. I am NOT stating that PC is wrong, I am just attacking the assumption that it is immune to criticism. OFTEN the ideals clash and then the catch-all simplicity of the PC line is shown to be far from consistent.

 

[Gmart]

Thanks for reading it. But why 'Xmas' btw? Are you trying not to offend anyone?

Takes less time to type than the longer version.

Did you note the real points in that article?

Sure, so why should this prevent me from observing that the PC line is used instead of thinking?

Yes you are -- by recycling their take on the whole 'PC' phenomenon so uncritically.

On the contrary I enjoy their dramatising of it, so what if people are falling for their drama? Heartbeat is probably still on every Sunday, and that's a story too.

Your problem? You don't trust people.

By your very use of the 'PC' phrase you endorse their lies about it and recycle their cliches.

Because people are robots and cannot make up their own mind?

By never (at least not on here!) challenging, or even critically questioning, any 'PC gone mad' story in the mainstream media you endorse the impression that 'PC' has indeed gone mad. By being totally unaware (it seemed earlier on) of the loaded ideological agenda of the author of your Great Work, you show your absence of any critical faculties.

I am not actually stating that PC has gone mad though. I am merely cautioning going too far the other way. It is preferable, of course, to have as much awareness of all sides of any story if one can.

Heck I even BUY the Star every now and then, it is fun. It is fiction.

Prove otherwise that so vast a proportion of them don''t disintegrate.

Well the Roadsign one will do.

That would be be an interesting exercise for you actually, might require you to examine some of those stories yourself, critically and analytically and in applying a 'how true is this really?' prism. And in depth!

So let's see then, the charity did indeed call for the change, and failed to appreciate that any change in the sign would not help in their quest to help the Elderly. Ask yourself why they need to change the sign. The existing sign has been the sign for 25 years, with all that time the motorists are currently trained to react to the sign in the required way. So why change it?

I can see the point you are making; that if we rubbish the PC line then we could possibly go back to the old way of thinking before the PC line was invented, thus failing to protect the people who need protection.

But the existence of my example above evidently shows that such concern should be on both sides of the equation, NOT just one.

 

[fela fan]

I would argue that political correctness is a result of our apparently inherent need to categorise people into groups. If we weren't so busy labelling people and then judging them based on the traits that that group of people are held to have, then PC would not have surfaced. PC is a reaction to a negative strand of thinking. PC is an effort made for positive reasons to negate something that we have already made negative.

Liberals, commies, right wingers, left wingers, muslims, blacks, whites, women, men, ford mondeo men, middle class, working class, daily mail readers, sun readers, celebrities, fat people, tories, labour sorts, new labour sorts, prostitutes, and... wait for it...PC people!! Oh, and on this website CTers. Once a person has been labelled, then everything is known about them according to the group they've been identified in!! An outcome is of course a lot of judgements of people.

And another outcome is everyone fighting for the rights of the group they've identified themselves to belong to.

Nobody fights for human rights. If they did, there'd be no need for political correctness, no need for racism, no need for gender imbalances, no need for religious extremism.

Language in general reflects our thinking. If we ban language, does that wipe out the thinking that went with it? No, unlikely. Often it just goes underground leaving ticking time bombs detrimental to the general good of society.

If we change our thinking, then our language will change accordingly.

And THAT is the key to a more peaceful and just society. PC has taken us down the wrong route, albeit for positive, if misguided reasons.

 

[fela fan]

I would like to add too that the clue to PC not being of any much use is the word 'politically' in the term. Politics is the art of divisiveness, of exclusivity; not inclusiveness, not togetherness.

Politically correct just means you say the 'right' things. But it says nothing about thinking the 'right' things.

 

[William of Walworth]

No time for this now, I'm off for the weekend pretty soon and I won't be back til later on Monday. There was an earlier post by fela that I wanted to take on as well, but I was leaving it until I had more time. I disagree fundamentally with his take on this, and, still, with Gmarthews' take as well, but it'll all have to wait.

More later etc.

 

[William of Walworth]

Finally got around to reading Julian Petley's review of the Anthony Browne book which Gmarthews used as the prompt to start this thread.

Worth reposting the link to that review** (thanks butchers for posting it originally) because it's full of hard hitting, no nonsense, common sense

**To be fair, Gmarthews did relink by quoting the relevant post from butvhersapron in a previous thread

Petley's main point is essentially mine : the supposed 'tyranny' of 'PC' is a media construct, founded on evidence-light, media generated, highly politicised folk myths for the most part.

Crazy World of Anthony Browne indeed -- and of almost all of those dwelling on the furthest reaches of Planet Anti-'PC' ...

 

[exosculate]

Finallly got around to reading Julian Petley's review of the book which Gmarthews used as the prompt to this thread.

Worth reposting the link to that review (thanks butchers for posting it originally) because it's full of hard hitting, no nonsense, common sense

His main point is essentially mine : the supposed 'tyranny' of 'PC' is a media construct, founded on evidence-light, media generated, highly politicised folk myths for the most part.

There is an alternative critique which is not talked about at all in the media, which is that PCland ignore class. They (the agenda setters) engage on ethnicity, gender, sexuality, disability etc etc etc - but never on class. This is the root of the problem.

This is partly the cause of Dagenham Dave voting in a certain way. We will never have cohesion where class is not given full recognition within the analysis.

 

[William of Walworth]

I'd agree with all that except where you attribute the absence of class centred discussion to 'PC' -- I'd put that much more down to the ever increasing consensus in favour of free market based economics and ideology. Colluded in and advanced by nearly all main political parties and figures, for a long time, and rarely more so than now.

Were Milton Friedman and Margaret Thatcher 'politically correct'??

Not that they were the only free marketeers, of course not, but I overemphasise to make a broader point ...

 

[William of Walworth]

Interesting piece by Max Hastings here -- not at all what I'd have expected of him, and running pretty much counter to the 'PC' obsessed worldview adhered to by so many of his fellow conservatives.

 

[Gmart]

Crazy World of Anthony Browne indeed -- and of almost all of those dwelling on the furthest reaches of Planet Anti-'PC' ...

So you are not going to comment on my precise responses in #183, but you are just going to agree with this review. Your silence speaks volumes.

I also read the review of course, but I also read the book itself, and it was good. The examples occasionally went too far but to echo the Grayling review it "mostly convinced".

I don't consider this issue to be media driven and therefore to be dismissed; it is about recognising that we need balance on both sides rather than just blindly going down the PC line and refusing to think about the other sides involved.

 

[nino_savatte]

I don't consider this issue to be media driven and therefore to be dismissed; it is about recognising that we need balance on both sides rather than just blindly going down the PC line and refusing to think about the other sides involved.

A. Who said it was "media-driven"?
B. What do you mean by "balance"?
C. You seem to have a problem with the fact that the phrase "PC gone mad" is a way of shutting down discourse. Thus far, all i have had from you is the usual crap about me not being "serious". Tbh, I don't think you're being serious or sincere in your intentions

 

[fogbat]

So what? You think that just because I'm wrong on this means that everything else I said is not relevant? You're just showing yourself up as exactly what I'm talking about. Sometimes you just gotta sit and think rather than just reacting and following the PC line unthinkingly. I am NOT stating that PC is wrong, I am just attacking the assumption that it is immune to criticism. OFTEN the ideals clash and then the catch-all simplicity of the PC line is shown to be far from consistent.

It does rather demonstrate once more that you're basing your argument on the funny little opinions in your brain box rather than fact.

e2a: I'm sure I could have worked the phrase "arse dribble" into that sentence somewhere. Please imagine I had.

 

[fela fan]

A. Who said it was "media-driven"?

WoW in #187 called it a media construct. I guess that's the same as being media-driven.

 

[fela fan]

Petley's main point is essentially mine : the supposed 'tyranny' of 'PC' is a media construct, founded on evidence-light, media generated, highly politicised folk myths for the most part.

Well mate, my experiences of PC operating in society, not the media, are what cause me to make my comments. And one place i know it operates in a horribly censoring kind of way is in the British Council schools. Truly appalling outcomes occur, where the verve and fun of humanity is driven out of the teachers who work there. It's a PC language world gone mad at the BC...

 

[nino_savatte]

WoW in #187 called it a media construct. I guess that's the same as being media-driven.

Well, it tends to be broadcast by the media. I can't count the numbers of red tops and mid-range tabloids (like The Daily Mail) that have articles on a weekly (or more frequent) basis that declare a hatred of "PC". Moreover, many so-called grassroots campaigns that have been organised by these papers are nothing of the sort.

 

[nino_savatte]

Perhaps you missed these links when I first posted them
http://www.capc.co.uk/
http://www.politicallyincorrect.me.uk/

Remember the Bruges Group? Even they have a say on PC. Such paranoia. Such a blatant desire to control discourses.

Political correctness is like a poisonous gas seeping through the air, creeping inside our national institutions and taking over our great country.

Like many invisible poisonous gases, it came from behind and attacked when we least expected it. Initially we were compliant, quiet and accepting – almost in a state of shock. Despite it not sitting comfortably with our way of life, most of us just ignored it and hoped it would go away. Only now are most people waking up to the real danger that political correctness poses.

Political correctness is one of the biggest peacetime threats to freedom this country has ever seen.
http://www.brugesgroup.com/mediacentre/comment.live?article=8963

 

[butchersapron]

So you are not going to comment on my precise responses in #183, but you are just going to agree with this review. Your silence speaks volumes.

I also read the review of course, but I also read the book itself, and it was good. The examples occasionally went too far but to echo the Grayling review it "mostly convinced".

I don't consider this issue to be media driven and therefore to be dismissed; it is about recognising that we need balance on both sides rather than just blindly going down the PC line and refusing to think about the other sides involved.

'Blindly'. 'refusing to think'

Which examples 'went too far'?

 

[William of Walworth]

Your silence speaks volumes.

Thats pretty rich coming from you.

You've raised selective reading of some peoples' posts, and complete ignoral of the posts of several other contributors, into an artform in this thread.

No time for more atm.

 

[fela fan]

Thats pretty rich coming from you.

You've raised selective reading of some peoples' posts, and complete ignoral of the posts of several other contributors, into an artform in this thread.

No time for more atm.

But are you doing the same mate?! You said before the weekend you were coming back with replies. I've posited a different angle to PC than the one you think the debate is centred on, yet silence!

Now, no more time again!

 

[fela fan]

Well, it tends to be broadcast by the media. I can't count the numbers of red tops and mid-range tabloids (like The Daily Mail) that have articles on a weekly (or more frequent) basis that declare a hatred of "PC". Moreover, many so-called grassroots campaigns that have been organised by these papers are nothing of the sort.

They're pandering to their readership mate. Gotta sell papers.

But we don't need to restrict our debate here to the media refrain 'it's pc gone mad'.

PC is a cancer from where i'm looking, and i don't see any of the content in the papers you're talking about. In fact i just don't look at any papers from britain any more.

PC is an effort by some to curtail freedom of thinking and freedom of expression in others. I've seen this for years now. It's all born from having so many disparate groups all chasing their own rights. The 'P' in the acronym is so so succinct.

 

[William of Walworth]

Like others, I genuinely don't have time for everything, especially not right now. You can't demand every single aspect of every single post be immediately attended to.

You might say the same applies to Gmarthews etc., but he HAS completely ignored certain posts and posters.

Can't do this justice now.

 

[Gmart]

Like others, I genuinely don't have time for everything, especially not right now. You can't demand every single aspect of every single post be immediately attended to.

You might say the same applies to Gmarthews etc., but he HAS completely ignored certain posts and posters.

Can't do this justice now.

Still I took your entire post and commented on pretty much all of it phrase by phrase, whereas you just ignored my entire post.

If there is a topic you feel I have ignored please feel free to tell me, meanwhile I leave you with the comment that two wrongs don't make a right...

 

[fela fan]

Like others, I genuinely don't have time for everything, especially not right now. You can't demand every single aspect of every single post be immediately attended to.

You might say the same applies to Gmarthews etc., but he HAS completely ignored certain posts and posters.

Can't do this justice now.

Fair enough mate, but you specifically said you'd return after the weekend to reply to something i'd said. Since i thought i'd left myself open to attack, i was looking forward to the reply and a chance to correct you, or myself!

I'm not demanding anything. Just reacting to your proposed reply!

 

[butchersapron]

Still I took your entire post and commented on pretty much all of it phrase by phrase,

Which is why no one read it.

 

[fela fan]

Which is why no one read it.

If you even begin to think you're some kind of academic, critical reader, objective analyser, then you've seriously gone wrong with that comment.

You are almost as blatantly wrong as someone saying liverpool are the best team in the world these days.

Such nonsense.

 

[butchersapron]

I am some kind of academic, critical reader, objective analyser.

 

[nino_savatte]

They're pandering to their readership mate. Gotta sell papers.

But we don't need to restrict our debate here to the media refrain 'it's pc gone mad'.

PC is a cancer from where i'm looking, and i don't see any of the content in the papers you're talking about. In fact i just don't look at any papers from britain any more.

PC is an effort by some to curtail freedom of thinking and freedom of expression in others. I've seen this for years now. It's all born from having so many disparate groups all chasing their own rights. The 'P' in the acronym is so so succinct.

It sounds like you've bought into the whole lot, from where I'm sitting.

 

[fela fan]

It sounds like you've bought into the whole lot, from where I'm sitting.

Fine by me. Think what you want mate instead of trying to clarify things. You ever experienced a british council school?

 

[nino_savatte]

Fine by me. Think what you want mate instead of trying to clarify things. You ever experienced a british council school?

Did you even bother to look at the links that I posted? No.