Plaid welcome St. Athan Murder Academy

chilango · Feb 21, 2007

Udo Erasmus said:
But in 1974, when the officers toppled the fascist dictatorship of Cateano, a key factor in the emergence of factories under workers control and the various forms of grassroots democracy was the space given by the failure of the army to defend the old order. This was because sections of the army were radicalised, discipline had broken down, and there were even (on a small scale) the emergence of rank and file soldiers' group

...and also because the workers were well armed. The army largely stood by and watched. The workers themselves were able to ward off right wing parmilitary groups, armed landowners etc.

It was this division in the armed forces that meant that the attempts by the old ruling class at another Chile 1973 failed and various attempts to undermine the revolution militarily were defeated by upsurges of workers militancy. Hence, while the revolution was lost, the ruling class were forced to concede democratic rights, civil liberties and trade union rights and other concessions.

...and also because the workers were well armed.

unlike here in Mexico where a combination of rightwing paramilitaries and the police were able to defeat the insurgency in Oaxaca - a contrast to Chiapas where the insurgents were, and still are, armed.

As you probably know the key factor in the defeat of the revolution was the politics of the 2 key organisations that had most influence among militant workers - the Communist Party and the Socialist Party. Both parties wanted a solution within capitalism, and were more interested in getting ministers and representatives in a reformist parliamentary system than defending and extending the various forms of grassroots democracy seen in factory councils, workers committees, the rank and file soldiers groups.

indeed the disgraceful antics of the Maoists and all other vanguardist groups too.

..but all this misses the point:

you deny the neccesity of armed struggle here yet chearlead it abroad.

this is a distasteful contradiction.

neprimerimye · Feb 21, 2007

chilango said:
Thats not true.

Check your history of the Portuguese revolution...

surely you should be with Nep on this one and leave the pacifism to liberals like me, no?

But Udo IS a wet liberal.

With little real knowledge of history including that of his own organisation which correctly criticised various sections of the Portugese revolutionary movement for their illusions in sections of the military.

Although given the dismall lack of knowledge of their own groups history on the part of SWP members like Udo his ignorance can be excused if not forgiven.

neprimerimye · Feb 21, 2007

Udo Erasmus said:
This was because sections of the army were radicalised, discipline had broken down, and there were even (on a small scale) the emergence of rank and file soldiers' groups.

Unlike Neppy (who has broken with the Marxist tradition) I support the rights of people under occupation to resist unconditionally, this doesn't mean that I don't criticise the politics and methods of the resistance.

In Iraq, what is causing a crisis for Blair and Bush is not just the casualties the resistance is inflicting on their military machine, but that there have been anti-war movements domestically of unprecedented size. This means that the chaos, destruction & bloodshed in the occupied countries feeds into political pressure at home, so that our rulers are caught betwixt the hammer of the resistance and the anvil of the international solidarity movement that has made Iraq headline news everyday./QUOTE]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you Udo but I'm away from home a fair bit these days. I've editiited your post and will reply to each substantive point in turn.

1/ Why was there rank and file agitation within the Portugese military? In the first place because conscription meant that an entire generation of workers was affected including revolutionary anti-militarists unlike britain today. in the second place because Portugal had been defeated militarly in Guinea, Mocambique and Angola. Unlike the situation in Iraq today.

2/ You really are an idiot Udo in that I have no where repudiated the marxian position of revolutionaries in the imperialist countries offering unconditional but critical support to those fighting imperialism in their own countries. What I disagree with is the silly slogan of voctory to the resistance and the policy of the SWP of turning its back on the small socialist forces in Iraq. As for the criticisms of the SWP with regard to the Islamist and Baathist resistance groups in Iraq there is none outside the pages of the ISJ.

3/ The movement against the war in Iraq in this country has been noisy and totally ineffective. Which is why the Nu Labour govt has been able to totally ignore it.

neprimerimye · Feb 21, 2007

Udo Erasmus said:
To Neppy:

A few points. Firstly, do you really think that socialists should rush to join the chorus of the South Wales Echo, Western Mail, LibDems, Tories, New Labour and welcome a Military academy in the drooling, servile manner of Plaid Cymru? Or should they not argue that the military academy is of no benefit to working class people and that the billions could be more usefully spent on allieviating some of the real social problems faced by Welsh workers. Surely, the question arises automatically: "Why billions for defence, yet no money for education, pensions, work, social regeneration etc.?"
I think that it is a duty of socialists to say, "well, actually spending £16 billion on a facility linked to training the latest recruits in the war on terror is not that great".

I would agree that it is intensely important for socialists to agitate among the armed forces, which I would argue that our current has tried to do. For example, our candidate in Hackney was a former Lance Corporal who (after a period of three years of going to anti-war meetings and demos and getting involved in left wing politics) left the army because he wasn't prepared to serve in Iraq. In South Wales, I have come across a few ex-soldiers who have been won to socialist poltics and joined the SWP. In Cardiff, one guy was trying to get out of the RAF when he joined, another guy I have come across had served in Iraq and Northern Ireland.

I have quite frequently, in the course of campaigning against the Iraq war, had the opportunity to have short conversations with soldiers who are going/or just returned from Iraq, many of whom are anti-war. Where possible, I try to take the debate beyond opposition to this particular war to the next level of raising anti-capitalist arguments. Of course, I would be kidding myself if I said that this represents major agitation among the armed forces in Cardiff.

Do you think that students shouldn't for example campaign against University investment in the arms trade? In Swansea, SWSS members were very active in getting Swansea University to break its links with arms companies.

Secondly, your comments are on supporting the arms trade on the basis that the weapons can be used by the workers when they make the revolution is actually a naive conception of revolution.

Leaving aside the morality of staying silent over the concrete fact that the ruling class in Britain is arming some of the most repressive and oppresive dictatorships in the world because maybe, possibly in some future their might be a revolutionary situation in the UK seems a somewhat abstract way of looking at things.

The key issue is not the weapons and arms at the disposal of the revolutionary masses but the ability of revolutionaries to poltically split the army.

1/ You do repeat yourself Udo. Thus your first point could be reduced to the argument that socialists only need to argue that arms spending can and ought to be spent on welfare or summarised as Jobs Not Bombs. Which is fine but most people know damn well that that slogan is empty of real content as the bosses will not spend finds in such a way unless we can force them to do so. And how we do that your pacifist politics cannot answer.

2/ In other words your empty words opposing the academy are meaningless unless you can supply concrete reasons how and why it should be opposed. Otherwise most workers will not oppose it but welcome the prospect of new jobs however few they may be. And should a campaign be luanched, which I doubt, on the pacifist lines you have advocated it will not find even the slightest echo amongst the working class for that very reason.

3/ You say that it is important that agitation be carried out amongst the armed forces. Fair enough but your current has carried out no such agitation. In fact only one socialist group ha ever tried that in the post-1945 period. The most IS, the organisational forerunner of your current, did was print its literature. I look forward to seeing proof to the contrary and will happily retract my comments if they are in any way inaccurate.

I note that Military Families Against the War does not agitate in the armed forces and is not a part of your current.

4/ Divestment is fine and very nice but achieves exactly nothing. Pointless really other than enabling a few students to run round shouting noisy slogans - good fun but juvenile.

5/ And where soft lad did I make any comment "supporting the arms trade"? Provide proof or retract. I'm merely find your pacifist demagogy against the academy empty of socialist content.

6/ If a socialist revolution seems abstract to you why call yourself a revolutionary socialist? Altough I can see no prospect of such an event in the near future i remain convinced that it is a concrete neccesity and not a mere abstract idea as your remark would seem to suggest.

7/ Yes the key to defeating a bourgeois military is revolutionary politics. But that is the problem with your pacifism its opposed to the kind of revolutionary politics needed.

Udo Erasmus · Feb 22, 2007

Chilango is actually correct about the necessity of arming the workers in a revolutionary situation.

I will reply to Neppy in finer detail soon.

neprimerimye · Feb 22, 2007

Udo Erasmus said:
Chilango is actually correct about the necessity of arming the workers in a revolutionary situation.

I will reply to Neppy in finer detail soon.

Not much point really Udo after all Chilango was making it clear that he was in agreement with me on arming the workers. So by agreeing with him you are disavowing your previous statements.

Or as those of us who adhere to Marxism might put it you are in deep doo-doo, or, more formally, you are in contradiction.

chilango · Feb 22, 2007

Correction:

I don`t believe in "arming the workers"

I believe that they/we need the oppourtunity to arm ourselves if (and this a bloody big if) a revolution is to be succesful.

Whether that is what the workers want to do (or even should do) is a whole other question.

I just find find the lefty domestic pacifism and overseas militarism leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.

neprimerimye · Feb 22, 2007

chilango said:
Correction:

I don`t believe in "arming the workers"

I believe that they/we need the oppourtunity to arm ourselves if (and this a bloody big if) a revolution is to be succesful.

Whether that is what the workers want to do (or even should do) is a whole other question.

I just find find the lefty domestic pacifism and overseas militarism leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.

Hair splitting old pal.

lewislewis · Feb 25, 2007

Seeing as the Labour govt managed this entire base and investment, will Udo still be saying to 'vote Labour without illusions' where a SWP/Respect candidate does not exist (i.e everywhere in Wales apart from Cardiff Central and 2 or 3 others)?

llantwit · Mar 16, 2007

lewislewis · Mar 16, 2007

Plaid in a position where we aren't left enough for Udo's liking, but are too left for Labour's liking.

Udo Erasmus · Mar 16, 2007

Despite having started this thread, I am a little bored with it.

. To lewislewis: If Plaid are too the left of New Labour does that mean that you can definitely rule out any Plaid-Labour coalition after May 3rd?

Both your deputy leader in the assembly and Adam Price have indicated they would favour such an arrangement

Gavin Bl · Mar 16, 2007

It would probably suit the vast majority of people who vote in the election too though, eh?

lewislewis · Mar 19, 2007

It would and Plaid would consider a coalition with Labour IF they agreed to give Wales full law-making powers. Such a coalition would be what most people in Wales (a clear majority of voters) would want.
But in truth there is alot of hostility between Plaid Cymru and New Labour. New Labour utterly hate Welsh nationalism more than the Conservatives or anyone else currently does. Similarly, Plaid members are often attacking Labour. There is too much bad blood between our parties for this to work.

So it isn't going to happen and Peter Hain is ruling it out 100%. I think we may well gain enough seats to form our own coalition maybe with the Lib Dems?

neprimerimye · Mar 19, 2007

lewislewis said:
It would and Plaid would consider a coalition with Labour IF they agreed to give Wales full law-making powers. Such a coalition would be what most people in Wales (a clear majority of voters) would want.
But in truth there is alot of hostility between Plaid Cymru and New Labour. New Labour utterly hate Welsh nationalism more than the Conservatives or anyone else currently does. Similarly, Plaid members are often attacking Labour. There is too much bad blood between our parties for this to work.

So it isn't going to happen and Peter Hain is ruling it out 100%. I think we may well gain enough seats to form our own coalition maybe with the Lib Dems?

This should properly speaking be a new thread.

But for now I note that there is no eividence for the staterment that most people in Wales want a coalition of Plaid Cymru and New Labour to run the Assembly govt. Similarly there is no evidence that most people want the Assmebly to have 'full law-making' powers. A rather opaque term which may or may not mean that the Assembly should be a sovereign body.

lewislewis · Mar 19, 2007

Every opinion poll on the issue has concluded parity with Scotland is very popular amongst those that vote- obviously, opinion polls aren't really reliable when run by newspapers, TV etc, and I imagine those that don't want a Welsh-style parliament wouldn't bother voting, rather than actually ticking 'no'. Despite this, I would be confident if a referendum came up soon on this issue.
Plaid's programme is to gradually move to independence, with each step along the way decided by a referendum. It's obvious the people of Wales don't want independence yet, but having the same powers that Scotland does is an achievable goal and would be a good step forward for our country.
I think Plaid's other policies like giving each student a laptop, aiming to make an oil-free Wales, and opposing the UK's nuclear weapons and imperialist wars, will also prove popular.

Remember, Plaid is the only party in these upcoming elections that is not funded by big business and is fighting the election using resources gathered entirely from Welsh sources.

neprimerimye · Mar 19, 2007

lewislewis said:
Every opinion poll on the issue has concluded parity with Scotland is very popular amongst those that vote- obviously, opinion polls aren't really reliable when run by newspapers, TV etc, and I imagine those that don't want a Welsh-style parliament wouldn't bother voting, rather than actually ticking 'no'. Despite this, I would be confident if a referendum came up soon on this issue.
Plaid's programme is to gradually move to independence, with each step along the way decided by a referendum. It's obvious the people of Wales don't want independence yet, but having the same powers that Scotland does is an achievable goal and would be a good step forward for our country.
I think Plaid's other policies like giving each student a laptop, aiming to make an oil-free Wales, and opposing the UK's nuclear weapons and imperialist wars, will also prove popular.

Remember, Plaid is the only party in these upcoming elections that is not funded by big business and is fighting the election using resources gathered entirely from Welsh sources.

That the small number of people polled have given a majority of affirmative answers to the question you refer to in your post above is a very long way from your previous assertion. In plain language you have been caught bullshitting.

I would suggest that in general polls are of very limited value given that the questions out are often framed in such a way as to slant the poll in the direction desired by those paying for them. Moreover when the question put is vague and its meaning obscure to all but political junkies they are further devalued.

That you are hapy that a considerabl part of the population would not even vote on the proposition as to whether or not the asembly should have greater powers/parity with the Scottish parlliament/sovereignty speaks to your poor grasp of elementary democratic principles. Genuine democrats by contrast would campaign not only for all voters to cast their ballot but for non-citizens to be given the right to vote with immediate effect. Which given the numbers of migrant workers is not a small question.

In fact you seem rather confused as to the program of your own party and assert that "Plaid's programme is to gradually move to independence". A policy that it does not in factn hold given that Plaid is on record of being in favour of 'independence within Europe' which is in practice and theory an abnegation of full and complete sovereignty. In other words Plaid is not for a genuinely independent Welsh state.

As for your list of policies Plaid holds they are meaningless as they will never be put into practice. Just as it is untrue that Plaid is not fully committed to the preservation of capitalism as you seek to suggest. While the party as such may not be in receipt of monies from the bosses the same is not true of all its elected representatives and even if it were in practie it is clear that their politics are easily reconciled with the interests of capital.

lewislewis · Mar 19, 2007

Nep, the party seeks to serve the interests of the people of Wales, rather than big business. As such, i'm afraid preservation of the capitalist system is included in that, such is the trouble with mainstream politics, but as a social democratic party Plaid believes in reforming the system or enacting socialist policies. Yes it is reformism.

Europe is another debate- Wales cannot currently decide anything to do with it's relationship with Europe. If Wales joined the European Union it would still be an independent sovereign state and would be in a more independent position than at present. States that join the EU willingly surrender some of their sovereignty (in certain areas) in favour of the broader project. States can also choose to leave.
Of course, Wales is already part of the EU anyway, so to NOT join the EU on gaining independence from the UK, would mean a departure from the jurisdiction of the EU. I don't think that would benefit Wales.

I don't think i was 'bullshitting' at all, most people in Wales are in favour of greater powers in my opinion, as there is no concrete evidence neither of us can be proven right/wrong, but I'm making an estimate based on the limited polls that have taken place. Really, instead of just saying that 'Wales wants further powers' and hoping i'm right, I would rather campaign for it in a referendum and then accept the result of that.
Nowhere did I say I would be happy with people not voting...people don't vote for loads of reasons which is best left to another thread. Also democracy isnt just the ballot box, everything should be moved out and decentralised and power given to communities rather than just an election every few years. Again, that's another thread.

You state that the policies I listed will never happen. Well I think your utopian society (though it is a noble dream) will never happen. Britain has become a one-party consensus state and I believe that we can create a new kind of politics in Wales, and that Wales is not a traditionally conservative country in the way England is. Wales is a smaller country and isn't shackled by the overseas colonial considerations that dominate English/UK politics. I accept that it isn't anti-capitalist and is reformist, and in fact continues the existence of capital interests and big business. My vision for Wales is that although capitalism will continue, we won't need to fight in any imperialist wars, won't generate hatred or be a target for 'terrorist attacks', won't be involved in torture or nuclear weapons, and can have a nice social democratic society based on progressive taxation : )

But the fact remains, Plaid is not in receipt of big business funding and thus does not have to make policies specifically for them. New Labour for example, reduces private equity tax in return for donations from tycoons etc. Plaid is just the product of his members, there are no secret committees or anything, the largest donations we get are bequests or wills.

neprimerimye · Mar 19, 2007

lewislewis said:
Nep, the party seeks to serve the interests of the people of Wales, rather than big business. As such, i'm afraid preservation of the capitalist system is included in that, such is the trouble with mainstream politics, but as a social democratic party Plaid believes in reforming the system or enacting socialist policies. Yes it is reformism.

Europe is another debate- Wales cannot currently decide anything to do with it's relationship with Europe. If Wales joined the European Union it would still be an independent sovereign state and would be in a more independent position than at present. States that join the EU willingly surrender some of their sovereignty (in certain areas) in favour of the broader project. States can also choose to leave.
Of course, Wales is already part of the EU anyway, so to NOT join the EU on gaining independence from the UK, would mean a departure from the jurisdiction of the EU. I don't think that would benefit Wales.

I don't think i was 'bullshitting' at all, most people in Wales are in favour of greater powers in my opinion, as there is no concrete evidence neither of us can be proven right/wrong, but I'm making an estimate based on the limited polls that have taken place. Really, instead of just saying that 'Wales wants further powers' and hoping i'm right, I would rather campaign for it in a referendum and then accept the result of that.
Nowhere did I say I would be happy with people not voting...people don't vote for loads of reasons which is best left to another thread. Also democracy isnt just the ballot box, everything should be moved out and decentralised and power given to communities rather than just an election every few years. Again, that's another thread.

You state that the policies I listed will never happen. Well I think your utopian society (though it is a noble dream) will never happen. Britain has become a one-party consensus state and I believe that we can create a new kind of politics in Wales, and that Wales is not a traditionally conservative country in the way England is. Wales is a smaller country and isn't shackled by the overseas colonial considerations that dominate English/UK politics. I accept that it isn't anti-capitalist and is reformist, and in fact continues the existence of capital interests and big business. My vision for Wales is that although capitalism will continue, we won't need to fight in any imperialist wars, won't generate hatred or be a target for 'terrorist attacks', won't be involved in torture or nuclear weapons, and can have a nice social democratic society based on progressive taxation : )

But the fact remains, Plaid is not in receipt of big business funding and thus does not have to make policies specifically for them. New Labour for example, reduces private equity tax in return for donations from tycoons etc. Plaid is just the product of his members, there are no secret committees or anything, the largest donations we get are bequests or wills.

No party can serve the interests of 'the people'. Nations are divided into antagonistic social classes which have nothing in common. Either Plaid is with the working class or it is with the boss class and your post makes it clear that Plaid supports the continuation of capitalism therefore it is with the boss class.

You also tell us that Plaid is a 'social democratic' party and 'therefore reformist'. In the current sense the first term is used i agree but the idea that Plaid is a reformist party is nonsense. Reformism meaning, for all serious socialists, the idea that socialism can be achieved by a series of reforms. Which as you make clear you excl;ude as a possibility. Plaid then is a party which believes in making reforms but in leaving the capitalist system intact that is to say it is a liberal party.

Your comments regarding the EU are bizarre. Wales is already a member of the EU by default as you agree. As for states leaving that body it will not happen and if it did would result in the most severe dislocation of the economy possible. In any case you make clear your support for the EU, an imperialist entity I note, what next NATO?

I'm sorry but you were bullshitting as you acknowledge by writing that "there is no concrete evidence neither of us can be proven right/wrong" in light of which your orignal remarks were without any backing as you now admit. Now please stop digging as you are getting filthy dirty and your mam won't be pleased.

As for your outline of the kind of Wales you would like to see! Such utopianism can only spring forth from the breast of an idealistic stripling. Or a fool. Lewis the society I wish to see may never be achieved but it is the only practical solution to the sores of capitalist society on a world scale. As for your dream it is a mere fantasy unless, of course, you can discover gold in long abandoned pits.

And the fact remains that Plaid supports, as you admit, the capitalist system. It is then accurate to say that it is utopian to suppose that an independent Wales can be both capitalist and escape the ravages of that rotten system.

lewislewis · Mar 19, 2007

I think capitalism and alot of human activity in general is fraught with 'rot' as you suggest, but i've been to social democratic countries like Norway, and though it is far from a utopia, my friends that live there are certain it is not 'ravaged'.

We are always going to disagree anyway...you don't believe nations should exist at all. I am a Welsh nationalist. Fine, whether you consider Plaid to be a social democratic, reformist, or liberal party makes no difference to me, and to most other people that give a crap about the subject.

I find your brief analysis of the EU equally bizarre. My point is that Wales would not wish to leave the EU in any case, so the transition to an independent Wales would result in an overall gain rather than a loss of sovereignty. Again, these issues do not matter much to the people of Wales at the moment. As if we'd join NATO....

My dream may be a mere fantasy but thousands of people will be endorsing it at the ballot box in a few weeks' time. Which leaves us with the question, how many voters will be endorsing your utopia? About 200 if that?

neprimerimye · Mar 19, 2007

lewislewis said:
I think capitalism and alot of human activity in general is fraught with 'rot' as you suggest, but i've been to social democratic countries like Norway, and though it is far from a utopia, my friends that live there are certain it is not 'ravaged'.

We are always going to disagree anyway...you don't believe nations should exist at all. I am a Welsh nationalist. Fine, whether you consider Plaid to be a social democratic, reformist, or liberal party makes no difference to me, and to most other people that give a crap about the subject.

I find your brief analysis of the EU equally bizarre. My point is that Wales would not wish to leave the EU in any case, so the transition to an independent Wales would result in an overall gain rather than a loss of sovereignty. Again, these issues do not matter much to the people of Wales at the moment. As if we'd join NATO....

My dream may be a mere fantasy but thousands of people will be endorsing it at the ballot box in a few weeks' time. Which leaves us with the question, how many voters will be endorsing your utopia? About 200 if that?

You are quite right Lewis Norway is not currently ravaged by the sores of capitalism. But not because it is social democratic, whetever that means in this context, but because it occupies a niche within imperialism that has allowed it to escape the worst problems of the capitalist system. Look next door to Sweden for another 'social democratic' country that is now just beginning to make the kind of cuts we associate with Thatcherism.

Whther or not I 'believe' in nations is besides the point. The fact is that they are an historical phenomena whose time has passed. Just as it is besides the point what you believe Plaid to be. The point is that in the commonly accepted terminology of politics it is a liberal not a socialist or reformist party. To argue that is is either is to change he meaning of thse terms so as to make them meaningless. Which might suit the pos modernists amongst us but does not suit the facts.

As for the EU I made no analysis of it but simpy stated that it is an imperialist alliance. I also made the point that Plaid cannot be a genuine nationalist party if it is willing to surrender any part of Welsh national sovereignity to the EU or any other supra-national body. Similarly I sought to make the point that if Plaid is willing for Wales to remain witin the EU, an imperialist alliance, there is no good reason to assume that it would not remain within the military wing of western imperialism, NATO.

lewislewis · Mar 20, 2007

It is simply because Norway has used it's wealth efficiently to remedy the worst of the inequalities generated by capitalism, as indeed has Sweden which whilst making cuts as you describe, is in no way ravaged or rotting, and has had it's societal development decided by a contract between the bosses and the unions. To get the best deal for eveyone.

In common terminology Plaid Cymru is in fact a social democratic party. It is to the left of the centre, and despite your endless rants about us serving big business, imperialism (lol) and the interests of capital, Plaid would make life better for the ordinary man or woman than any of the other major parties.
Feel free to 'organise' your own alternative outside of this cosy electoral world, but this is the one that matters and the one where we can change things at the moment.
The alternative to Welsh national progress, is keeping Wales under Tory centralism for the next God knows how many years. Your reasoning would keep us under Tory and New Tory rule forever- you wouldn't be supporting this but you'd be propping it up.

neprimerimye · Mar 20, 2007

lewislewis said:
It is simply because Norway has used it's wealth efficiently to remedy the worst of the inequalities generated by capitalism, as indeed has Sweden which whilst making cuts as you describe, is in no way ravaged or rotting, and has had it's societal development decided by a contract between the bosses and the unions. To get the best deal for eveyone.

In common terminology Plaid Cymru is in fact a social democratic party. It is to the left of the centre, and despite your endless rants about us serving big business, imperialism (lol) and the interests of capital, Plaid would make life better for the ordinary man or woman than any of the other major parties.
Feel free to 'organise' your own alternative outside of this cosy electoral world, but this is the one that matters and the one where we can change things at the moment.
The alternative to Welsh national progress, is keeping Wales under Tory centralism for the next God knows how many years. Your reasoning would keep us under Tory and New Tory rule forever- you wouldn't be supporting this but you'd be propping it up.

It is interesting that in your opinion the ruling class of Norway have seen fit to share their wealth with the working classes who actually produce that wealth. How generous of them! And what nonsense it is because Norway is a backwater and was lucky enough to have oil deposits that enabled them to maintain their welfare state at a relatively high level.

As for Sweden the eal that the unions did with the bosses is now being undone. And what are the unons doing about it? Sweet fanny Adams. You see Lewis the bosses are only willing to grrant gains such as the welfare state when they are forced to oand feel thaet can afford to. Today, as is quite clear, they no longer feel able to do so and because the unons fell for the crap about a social partnership with the bosses they are no longer able to mobilise the workers in order to protect their benefits.

It may be truie that in commonly accepted termionology that plaid is a social democratic party but that term is today meaningless and in content pretty much identical with liberlaism. Which I mean as a compliment by the way. Aftr all as a Marxist I imght have described it, quite truthfuly, as a reactionary or counter revolutionary party. After all as a party committed to capitalism, as you concede, it stands opposed to the class interests of the largest part of the population of Wales. Moreover as it is supportive of capitalism it cannot but act in the interests of capital and would be forced in government to create the best possible climate for international capital. Which means that despite the undoubted iddealism of activists such as you it would be forced to follow a neo-liberal agenda just as much as Labour does at the UK level today.

Finally I do not accept that the laternative to parochial Welsh nationalism is acceptance of the status quo. The only real alternative to the coninued rule of capital is communism. Or I might put it as follows Neither Cardiff nor London but International Socialism.

lewislewis · Mar 20, 2007

People in Wales do not want communism or anything of the sort. The idea of a Welsh social democratic state holds real purchase with voters and with an increasing layer of activists on the left in Wales who are doubting the relevance of revolutionary activity and in fact believe that socialism would be easier to attain in the Welsh state, rather than the historically right-wing British empire.

Now I agree that as Immortal Technique puts it (quoting a rapper rather than a political philosopher here : p ), 'universal truth is not measured in mass appeal'
but past flirtations with communism and the result of those mean that people in general don't want Welsh society to be transformed radically and well, to be honest the workers here don't want to take control of their factories. It seems a bit far fetched and would be crushed immediately by outside powers if it ever did happen.
Communism in Wales has a good history mind you, but I think that is of a different, more reformist sort to the purist style you advocate.

neprimerimye · Mar 20, 2007

lewislewis said:
People in Wales do not want communism or anything of the sort. The idea of a Welsh social democratic state holds real purchase with voters and with an increasing layer of activists on the left in Wales who are doubting the relevance of revolutionary activity and in fact believe that socialism would be easier to attain in the Welsh state, rather than the historically right-wing British empire.

Now I agree that as Immortal Technique puts it (quoting a rapper rather than a political philosopher here : p ), 'universal truth is not measured in mass appeal'
but past flirtations with communism and the result of those mean that people in general don't want Welsh society to be transformed radically and well, to be honest the workers here don't want to take control of their factories. It seems a bit far fetched and would be crushed immediately by outside powers if it ever did happen.
Communism in Wales has a good history mind you, but I think that is of a different, more reformist sort to the purist style you advocate.

Well Lewis we are a longways away from St Athan and no mistake. So I'll make this my last unless anybody else jumps in.

So first off the idea that the 'people of Wales' (an irrelevance in my view as my concern is with workers in Wales not the gwerin/people) like the 'people' in the rest of britain right now have a low level of class consciousness. At best most people want a better life and are somewhat dissatisfied with the current admin. So its bloody obvious they aren'taware, leave alone want, the suppression of private property.

As for activists abandoning revolutionary activity I know of no such people. You must identify them Lewis as I can say with certainty that there is no layer of revolutioanry activists moving towards Welsh nationalist politics. Shit there are only a handful of revolutionists in Wales anyway!

As for the idea that socialism can be better achieved in one country, Wales, that is plain silly. As any scientific socialist, that is to say any Marxist, can tell you socialism is preicated on the international division of labour and attendant specialisation that the capitlaist mode of production has brought into being. It follows that socialism cannot be achieved in any single state. This means by the way that for socialism to come into being that it must be based on units larger than any of the existing states of Europe.

You do at least make one good point namely that any attempt to bring about workers' power in Wales would be atacked. So it would by any government intent on defending the bosses such as a Plaid govt. As I said earlier on Plaid is an counter revolutionary party. That is to say it opposes the dictatorship of the proletariat the scientific defintion of workers power. That the boss clas and its servants, such as Plaid, would seek to defend their unjust and exploitative system is hardly an observation unique to you however.

Finally you are wrong to asimilate the goal of a communist society with the defunct Communist Party of Great Britain. A party which had a miserable history of class collaboration and betrayal of the workers cause. In part it is because of the record of that miesrable organisation that there are so few communists in Wales today. But then the same thing can be said of any country where the Stalinists betrayed the cause of humanity. For the cause of the workers is the cause of humanity including the people of Wales. TINA.

Plaid welcome St. Athan Murder Academy

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terrible awful baaad

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