Palm: Pre, webOS & app discussion

[paolo]

Has anyone actually produced details of this patent Apple are supposed to own on this technology because no one's mentioned it anywhere else as far as I know.

I should temper my previous post - it's quite probably a patent application.

I did google after posting, to make sure I wasn't going mad, and did find the report. Can't C&P a link but hopefully someone who is using a regular computer can do the honours.

 

[editor]

Now this is interesting:

For those of you who weren't listening in to Apple's earnings call today, you missed a prime moment of defensiveness when Tim Cook fielded a question about how the company plans to stay competitive amidst new entries from the likes of Google and, more recently, Palm. What seemed like an answer due to end with a "we've got some great new stuff on the way" slant, Cook dovetailed into how the company views its new smartphone competition. In his words:

Q: "There are other iPhone competitors coming to the market: Android, Palm Pre. How do you think about sustaining leadership in the face of these competitors?"

A: "It's difficult to compare to products that are not yet in the market. iPhone has seen terrific rating from customers. Software is the key ingredient, and we believe that we are years ahead of our competitors. Having different screen sizes, different input methods, and different hardware makes things difficult for developers. We view iPhone as primarily a software platform, which is different from our competitors. We don't mind competition, but if others rip off our intellectual property, we will go after them."

And then the follow-up:

Q: "The Palm device seems to directly emulate the iPhone's innovative interface. Is that what you're referring to?"

A: "We don't want to refer to any specific companies, so that was a general statement. We like competition because it makes us better, but we will not stand for companies infringing on our IP."

Now, we've heard Apple sound off on its intellectual property before, but the way a somewhat innocuous question about new challengers in the mobile arena got turned into a not-so vague threat of legal action is a bit stunning. Could it be that the Pre is Apple's first real multitouch, capacitive-screen competition, and the device just happened to be co-developed by Jon Rubinstein... formerly of Apple? We're not taking any flying leaps here, but the preempted initial answer seems to suggest that the folks in Cupertino may not take every new threat so coolly.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/21/apple-on-smartphone-competition-if-others-rip-off-our-intellec/

I really hope Apple doesn't wave it's almighty financial clout and embark on an endless bout of legal battles for none-too-obvious infringements in the hope they can batter all competition dead.

 

[Sunray]

What is your view on intellectual property?

I'm against software patents, but generally support protecting ideas like the multi-touch screen Apple created. The reason I take this view, is that it protects companies who want to innovate. Innovation cost stacks and stacks of money, because you have to employ the brightest people for possibly no end result. Having those very ideas created in that endeavour used in competing products by companies who didn't risk a penny is unfair. Apple have tons of cash, so they can innovate easily, but for smaller companies, that innovation risk is very high and should be protected.

It would piss me off if someone made money out of my ideas.

Competition is one thing, direct copying is another. In the now dead MP3 player war, nobody came up with as easy a way to access music than the scroll wheel, its the primary reason that the iPod became so successful. The competition had 7 years and failed. Someone did though, Apple. Flick scrolling showed that it was possible to compete with the scroll wheel, but nobody thought to use it in a music player.

If Palm have decided it would be cheaper to just steal ideas from Apple rather than come up with their own new ideas, then I predict the demise of Palm in a snow of legal action.

 

[tarannau]

Now this is interesting:I really hope Apple doesn't wave it's almighty financial clout and embark on an endless bout of legal battles for none-too-obvious infringements in the hope they can batter all competition dead.

What if they go for obvious infringements. like the fact the multitouch gestures on the pre appear pretty much identical?

No idea whether Palm and Rubenstein think they've got something that allow them to sail so close, but that seems a pretty obvious infringement.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Palm are royally fucked if Apple go after them...maybe this is sabre rattling as part of unseen license negotiations?

 

[editor]

What is your view on intellectual property?

I'm against software patents, but generally support protecting ideas like the multi-touch screen Apple created. The reason I take this view, is that it protects companies who want to innovate.

IP plays an important part in protecting a company's investment, but has becoming increasingly open to abuse, particularly by larger, bullying companies with hotshot lawyers (e.g. Apple):

Sadly, it doesn't matter to most companies that their patents may not stand up in court because the mere threat of court action is sufficient to blackmail businesses into coughing up licence fees. If the choice is between an extortionate licence fee or even more extortionate legal fees (with no guarantee of success) most companies just aren't prepared to take the risk.

Many modern patents never result in an actual product, instead they are traded in secret between giant companies so that they may be used as weapons in the legal cold war that erupts whenever anyone is foolish enough to try to bring a new product to market.

Patents are now so numerous and far-reaching that it is essentially impossible to introduce a new software application or electronic device that does not infringe on a patent that somebody, somewhere has filed. Instead, companies must gather their own patent arsenal so that when they are inevitably sued, they will hopefully be able to find something buried deep in their archive that will allow them to launch a countersuit to nullify their attacker.

This is a great article by the way: http://www.charcoaldesign.co.uk/articles/patents.

What if they go for obvious infringements. like the fact the multitouch gestures on the pre appear pretty much identical?

Perhaps Apple's claim is not as solid as you might think?

 

[tarannau]

Nope, I can't pretend to understand the complexities of IP law, despite working with patent lawyers a fair bit before.

What's an issue is that Palm's multitouch is remarkably similar, id not basically identical to Apple's. Which is a coincidence even for a layman, especially given Rubenstein's ex-position as the head of the ipod division. Palm's got to know that'll come under scrutiny.

 

[editor]

Nope, I can't pretend to understand the complexities of IP law, despite working with patent lawyers a fair bit before.

What's an issue is that Palm's multitouch is remarkably similar, id not basically identical to Apple's. Which is a coincidence even for a layman, especially given Rubenstein's ex-position as the head of the ipod division. Palm's got to know that'll come under scrutiny.

If you look hard at the iPhone you will see a ton of identical technologies on previous smartphones including icon-based touchscreen menu, threaded SMS, ringer on/off etc etc etc - that's the nature of technical innovation which often involves incremental improvements on the ideas of many people before.

But what's of real concern to the consumer - and I'm not just on about Apple here - is the way that companies can try and block others on spurious patent claims, with customers ultimately footing the bill.

Once Again, Apple's 200 iPhone Patents Don't Stop Others From Claiming Infringement
You may recall that Steve Jobs proudly hyped up the fact that Apple had filed over 200 patents on the technologies related to the iPhone, as if that showed how special it was. However, as we noted, those patents hardly stopped others from filing patent infringement lawsuits against Apple. In the latest case, we have a company named EMG Technology claiming the iPhone violates its recently issued patent on viewing a mobile website.

The patent appears to cover the process of reformatting a website so that it can be more easily viewed on a mobile browser -- something that's been done for ages, since well before this patent was originally filed in 2006. Of course, the priority date on this patent may actually go back to March of 2000, since it appears that various continuations were filed -- a common practice among patent holders to be able to later add changes to a patent's language to cover actual innovations that others came up with, but which the patent holder now wants credit, even if the original patent application wouldn't have covered that technology specifically.

Either way, even if you were to grant the (somewhat laughable) idea that this patent is valid, this case again shows why the patent system, as currently constructed, makes almost no sense. It's quite clear that Apple did not get it's idea for how the iPhone browser would work from EMG's patent. Instead, it came up with the concepts on its own, knowing that it would be a useful way of implementing a mobile browser. Yet, now, this third party who had nothing to do with Apple's innovations gets to demand money from Apple. That's not promoting the progress. It's promoting waste and inefficiency.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20071203/191306.shtml

More lawsuits: http://www.applematters.com/article/the-iphone-lawsuits/

 

[tarannau]

Ah, no doubts it cuts both ways. Apple has a massive legal team and contingency fund partly because they're a brand often targeted for potentially lucrative patent claims and partly because they're as vigorous as anyone in defending their space.

It's arguable if Creative, for example, with their loss making mp4 playing division, would survive without Apple's legally-prompted licencing of their catchall menu system patent. The individual multitouch gestures seem far more differentiated if anything.

Swings and roundabouts. But it seems, if anything, pretty much the only way to play the technology game now.

 

[editor]

Palm is rumoured to be announcing the Euro 3G GSM version of the Pre at the Mobile World Congress in Feb. Whoppeee!

 

[editor]

Palm responds:

It didn't take too long for Palm to start deflecting Apple's strong sentiment on its iPhone multi-touch patent being ripped off in Palm's new webOS™, PC Mag has managed to get in touch with a spokeswoman at Palm on Thursday who said that the company has not been contacted by Apple's legal team, to her knowledge.

"Palm has a long history of innovation, obviously reflected in our own products and our own robust apps portfolio," she said. "We have long been recognized for our fundamental patents in the mobile space. If we're faced with legal action, we're confident that we have the tools to defend ourselves."

When asked whether gestures like "pinching" were universal, or belonged to Apple, the Palm spokeswoman said that "our position is that multitouch has been around a long, long, long time before Apple introduced it."

Now, like any other civilized modern people who are familiar with blog gossips and how blog news are often exaggerated the real topics, the above comment does not reflect that Palm's webOS actually copies Apple's iPhone multi-touch interface.

Since Apple haven't revealed yet which company that allegedly ripped off its IP (Intellectual Property), as far as we know it Apple could be hinting at a company in China which is widely known for making knockoff products from famous companies including Apple.

http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palma...irst-comment-on-iphone-multitouch-patent.html

 

[Sunray]

Palm is rumoured to be announcing the Euro 3G GSM version of the Pre at the Mobile World Congress in Feb. Whoppeee!

Some thought PC Pro pod cast that it'll not see the light of day in the UK until the Autumn because Palm don't have the financial muscle to launch like the larger companies. They also reflected my sentiment that there are a lot of people signed up to long term contracts, how many of the basket of people that might buy it are left for them to take esp if its expensive?

I'm not going to be interested till the end of the year at the earliest so its timed well for the people that jumped on the 3G iPhone at launch.

 

[editor]

Some thought PC Pro pod cast that it'll not see the light of day in the UK until the Autumn because Palm don't have the financial muscle to launch like the larger companies. They also reflected my sentiment that there are a lot of people signed up to long term contracts, how many of the basket of people that might buy it are left for them to take esp if its expensive?

I'm not going to be interested till the end of the year at the earliest so its timed well for the people that jumped on the 3G iPhone at launch.

There's always people signed up to long term contracts but this notion that they're all running on parallel timeframes is a bit silly.

 

[Sunray]

Its only of recent time that you had to sign up to a contract to get these phones.

Apart from the odd exception these were all generally available contract free, so it is a valid point to make esp as operators are using the lure of the tech to ensnare people into longer contracts. Not everyone wants or can afford an expensive smart phone.

 

[editor]

Its only of recent time that you had to sign up to a contract to get these phones.

Apart from the odd exception these were all generally available contract free, so it is a valid point to make esp as operators are using the lure of the tech to ensnare people into longer contracts. Not everyone wants or can afford an expensive smart phone.

Eh? Millions of people signed up to long term deals to get Nokia N95s, WM smartphones, Blackberrys, Sony Ericssons etc etc. I did it for years on end before I moved back to Palm.

 

[paolo]

That aside, I don't know I there's anything to read into the timing of their announcement vs. actual ship date. They'll be very busy with the home market for quite a few months. And there's also the issue of production volumes. It only takes for there to be one component that is in short supply to affect the whole thing. I've read one unverified story of the first run being 200k. Even if it's 1m, that's only a few months of stock in terms of US sales, if it goes well.

Apple had a lag of about 6 months before breaking out of native turf. Maybe Palm will be quicker, but not much quicker I'd bet.

 

[editor]

Here's Gizmodo's "definitive FAQ" on the Pre:
http://i.gizmodo.com/5133554/palm-pre-the-definitive-faq

 

[Lazy Llama]

I didn't realise that the Palm App Store will be the only way of buying apps and you can only do it through the phone.
At least until someone jailbreaks it.

 

[editor]

I didn't realise that the Palm App Store will be the only way of buying apps and you can only do it through the phone.
At least until someone jailbreaks it.

Note sure if that's true, but here's the real difference:

On Thursday, we were contacted by a developer who has used and is familiar with the Mojo SDK; he had a lot of good things to say about how Palm is handing the extremely nascent developer community and his hopes for the future of the platform.

The developer told us that he has explored mobile development on Apple's iPhone SDK and found much of the company's position towards their community to be "developer-hostile"—an obvious reference to their insistence on enforcing a pointless NDA well past its expiration date and their strong hand in regulating what can and cannot be developed for its platform.

In stark contrast, it seems that this developer's experience with the Mojo SDK has been a joy. The platform will allow developers to access most of the phone's capabilities, including calendaring, contacts, music and video playback. It would appear that Palm is very open to allowing developers nearly full access to the device's capabilities.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/pos...o-a-developer-speaks-about-palms-new-sdk.html

 

[editor]

Ah, it's not set in stone at all. In fact, Palm have been asking developers what they want rather then telling them what they have to have:

Palm request for app store advice opens floodgate

Andrew Shebanow didn't imagine that asking for feedback about how Palm Inc.'s app store should work would open up a flood of input. He also didn't expect the move would change his job description. But now both have happened.

On Jan. 8, Shebanow, who is working on a third-party application distribution system for Palm's new operating system, posted an item on his blog looking for input from developers on how that system should work. He threw out a few questions, such as: How should application updating and installation work? Should Palm offer payment processing or leave it to third parties? Should application trials be available? How should Palm handle featured applications?

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9126027

 

[Lazy Llama]

So "definitive FAQ" is not definitive

 

[editor]

So "definitive FAQ" is not definitive

Clearly not!

You've got to admit that Palm's open approach thus far seems to be a breath of fresh air, no?

 

[Lazy Llama]

Palm have been working on this particular iteration of the OS/product for more than 2 years, but there still seems to be an awful lot that is either undecided, or is being kept secret. I'm hoping for their sake that it's the latter.

I'm really curious why they couldn't announce a price or availability date at the launch. Did they launch it too early?

 

[editor]

Judging by the wildly enthusistic hands-on reviews from CES, I'd say the phone is close to ready.

Seeing as it's such a revoltionary product, it makes a lot of sense to let developers and consumers know what's coming up.

Judging by user comments on sites like Engadget, a lot of people are now going to hold off buying a new phone and wait for the Pre to come out, so Palm were wise to let folks know what's coming up.

Besides, it's common practice to announce products several months before they launch.

 

[Sunray]

Ah, it's not set in stone at all. In fact, Palm have been asking developers what they want rather then telling them what they have to have:

I have to say that I find that omission very worrying. It takes ages to develop these things so they work properly and are reliable. This is especially true if they want to include a billing model and payment model as people take offence if you fuck with their money. When is this due for release. Like the iPhone, I doubt its going to come with a software store from release, 5 months would be an insane target if they haven't even finished the specs yet.

Secondly, making hard decisions like this and being right is one of the reasons Apple were successful with the App store. Made the decision, this is how its going to work, and they wrote it and it works and 15000 applications and millions of downloads (often of meaningless crap I would admit) later its hard to argue with what they did.

Open source, for all its greatness does suffer from leadership. Far too many people feel they know best and you end up with a mess at the end.

 

[paolo]

Millions of downloads... 500 million, to put a figure on it.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I don't have a problem with app downloading via the phone; I much prefer that to faffing about with straight to pc then syncing to get apps on my phone...

 

[editor]

I have to say that I find that omission very worrying. It takes ages to develop these things so they work properly and are reliable. This is especially true if they want to include a billing model and payment model as people take offence if you fuck with their money. When is this due for release. Like the iPhone, I doubt its going to come with a software store from release, 5 months would be an insane target if they haven't even finished the specs yet.

I can't say it particularly bothers me. Android's app store was only half built when it went live (it couldn't take any payments) and punters had no problems getting their hands on software. Apple's app store wasn't exactly glitch-free either, with their bizarre policy on seemingly randomly banning certain apps.

I think Palm are doing exactly the right thing in listening to developers and trying to come up with something that works well and encourages the growth of the community. Developers need to know what they're working with and Palm seem keen to encourage a dialogue.

Judging by the immense thought and innovation that has gone into the phone and OS so far, I'm confident that there'll be something useful in place come the launch date.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Given that the Pre already uses all the services you use having no killer apps on day one isn't a big deal in my view.

 

[editor]

That's true. The webOS is the killer app.