London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
I'm sure the news was leaking from the time the raid ended and people left the situation room - human nature, biggest news for the USA since God knows when.
Osama bin Laden killed by US forces in Pakistan
- Thread starter Spymaster
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audiotech
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You could say that the "golden years" have yet to come then?
Pingu
Credo
google concurs. lots of hits for this
dylans
overlord of all acorns
.
I see that his execution is just another step of moral degradation and abandonment of the principles that the US claims to stand for. Principles that have been jettisoned with abandon since the "war on terror began. Since 9/11 the US has engaged in illegal wars, breach of national soveriegnty war crimes, torture, internal repression, spying on its own citizens, Kidnapping, wholesale slaughter of civilians, use of illegal weapons, indefinite imprisonment with neither trial or evidence, illegal regime change, imprisonment of children, mutilation and rape of civilians, gross sexual and physical abuse of prisoners, grave breaches of Geneva conventions and laws of war, unending occupation and war without end, It has trampled on its own constitution and on every standard of international law and lied to both the American people and the world so blatantly and cynically that half the world no longer believes a word they say. The list goes on and on. Virtually every single principle that the US claims to stand for have been trampled into the ground since the day those planes flew into those building. The war on terror has utterly corrupted the soul of the United States and turned the principles it so proudly claims to uphold into a grim Orwellian joke. And now the world is expected to take the word of the President of the United States on good faith and people are decried as lunatics when they express disbelief and ask for evidence?
You are right we should not be surprised that it ended with an assassination of a captured man by death squad or that the US is lying about it and we should not be the least bit surprised that there was never any intention of respecting international law or the democratic principles of justice through due process. However it is a shame and a missed oppportunity for the US to use this death to draw a line under this disgrace and restate the very principles that the US claims to be defending against the likes of Al Qaeda. Principles like rule of law, evidence and due process. Obama has simply continued where Bush left off despite the rhetoric. Nothing has changed, the Patriot act is still in force, Homeland security continues to trample on the constitutional rights of citizens, Guantanamo is still open, as far as we know rendition still occurs, civilians are still being slaughtered by predator drones, hit squads still roam the earth, but you are right, why should we be in the slightest bit surprised. We shouldn't. Doesn't mean I have to like it though
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
For comic relief, consider the fact that Enda Kenny has been forced to apologise for calling Joe Higgins a supporter of Al-Qaeda:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0504/breaking43.html?via=mr
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0504/breaking43.html?via=mr
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
They're not lying about it. They're being refreshingly honest about it.
Of course not. Law and morality are the first things to go out the window in war, (see any AQ attack for confirmation of this).
Not sure how that works with enemy military commanders, but it's certainly not a courtesy provided by Binny or any of his mates. Fuck due process for Bin Laden. Only he could benefit from it, so why bother.
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
It depends who the Republicans put up against him. If they could come up with a moderate candidate, I'd certainly give them a chance to win me over. I don't see much in the field now, but its early yet.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Anyone else. I mean is there anyone else you think should be denied due process and rules of international law.Should we deny it to Gaddafi?. Should Saddam have been executed without trial? Hamas leaders? Ahmadinadjad? Should we trample over international law and ignore due process wherever it proves inconvenient? What about the 750 +prisoners who have gone through Guantanamo? Fuck em? The unknown number of people kidnapped and tortured in secret CIA camps around the world? Fuck em? The million Iraqi dead? Fuck em? The thousands of dead Afghan and Pakistani civilians? Fuck em? The Abu Ghraib prisoners who suffered sexual and physical abuse? Don't matter? Where do you propose we draw the line once we have decided that it is ok to "fuck due process when it suits us"? All of the above are the inevitable consequences of a decision to think it is ok to trample on the principles of human rights, international law and due process.
Now this is the heart of it. Does it matter what actually took place in that compound. Does it matter if he was executed after capture. I think it does for the reasons I gave above and in my previous post. You think it doesn't. We disagree.
Of course if it doesn't matter what happened then you are right. It is not important to construct an accurate narrative of events. It doesn't matter if the details of events are being spun for propaganda purposes. It doesn't matter whether he was captured before execution or shot AK blazing while hiding behind his wife. I see where your argument leads you
But if, as I do, you think it does matter what happened. It does matter whether an unarmed man was executed after being subdued and captured then it follows that an accurate portrayal of events should be ascertained and for that to be done. For the true and accurate account of events too be presented, then photographic and video footage should be released.
This is the heart of our disagreement. You don't think due process is important. I do.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Of course international law and due process should be ignored in certain circumstances. Mainly when challenging those that don't recognise it themselves.
The degree with which to do so is the question, and clearly you and I aren't going to agree on where to draw the line.
The degree with which to do so is the question, and clearly you and I aren't going to agree on where to draw the line.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Well yes this is the heart of it. The thing is, international law is already ignored when it suits the powers that be. I would like Tony Blair to face a court room. Netanyahu and Bush too. It is not only for the likes Bin Laden that principles of due process and law are selectively ignored.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Ah, you edited.
I'd go further than that, Dylans. I think there are circumstances that can arise, such as this, where due process can be actively damaging and should be avoided at all costs.
I'd go further than that, Dylans. I think there are circumstances that can arise, such as this, where due process can be actively damaging and should be avoided at all costs.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
audiotech
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Korea? Vietnam? Cambodia? Laos? Cuba? Latin America? African states? Grenada? The Middle East? Even in the US itself? Today we get to see some details of the shenanigans, death squads, torture, extra-judicial killings and the like that take place, fairly rapidly, on't tinternet.
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
Anyone who expects morality and politics to go together are naive. Moral certainty is a luxury that most politicians can't entertain. Politics is all about advantage and expediency. Why is anyone suprised by this?
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Not surprised by it but we shouldn't applaud it either. Because when we cease being outraged this kind of behavior will go on unhindered. Your kind of cynicism is really just an excuse to accept the abuse of power. Your post above could be cut and pasted whenever any abuse of legality takes place. Did you shrug your shoulders at news of Abu Ghraib? Rendition? Torture? Guantanamo? Israeli assassinations? Illegal regime change? Use of illegal weapons on civilians? Breaches of Geneva Conventions? Why bother being outraged by any of this. Perhaps the likes of Amnesty are wasting their time and should close down. After all why are we surprised?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
It's an uncomfortable truth isn't it?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
I did at some of those, and some others that you don't mention.
This idea that we must always occupy the moral high ground is bullshit. We should start by thinking along the same lines as our enemies and soften our stance from there, stopping when policy becomes ineffective and drawing the line, regardless of where that leaves us morally.
Golda Meir's cabinet's treatment of the Munich terrorists was spot on in my opinion.
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
Sorry, I'm a bit short on moral outrage today. Catch me next time.
Socialism or barbarism? Barbarism won ages ago.
audiotech
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So you keep saying, after your initial reluctance to use said slogan.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
thought so
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
My problem here is that I fully accept that technically you are absolutely right - rule of law, good governance, due process, we should expect better from our elected govts etc.,etc.,...
and yet....against all this, Is the fact that I do believe OBL is dead, and as such I couldn't give a stuff how Bin Laden died. I am just glad he is dead, and I care about as much about his rights as a person, as he ever did about any of his victims. The world, is to me, a far better place for his passing, all things considered.
That isn't to say I hate anyn the less all the evil things USG has been involved in over the decades - simply that, if there's one instance where I'm prepared to let it slide, it's this one.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
well, yes, agreed
It makes no difference at all to the world when you consider that, bad as 9/11 and other events he inspired might have been, the number of victims was miniscule when compared to those who are slaughtered in military actions deliberately embarked upon by states at the behest of totally unaccountable vested interests. Osama was a minnow in comparison.
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
In criminal cases, you don't have the family of the victim go out and arrest the suspect. You simply can't rely on them to be objective.
If anyone wanted him to have a trial, they can blame Pakistan for helping to hide him instead of turning him in to the UN.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Right. I think this is going to test quite a few peoples sensibilities, and we'll find some of the staunchest defenders of human rights and moralities shrugging their shoulders, or even having a quiet grin to themselves.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
well, yes, obviously, of course....
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
yup, you got me nailed. I've worked on campaigns for the Gitmo prisoners, I AM that staunch defender....but here, I think OBL's victims are worth caring about more.
audiotech
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Yeah, you can get older, bitter and cynical too I've found.
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