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Occupy Wall Street

Random said:
Because he has illusions in Obama? Possibly. Or perhaps he just saw taking anotehr pop at Fox and the birthers to be the top priority. No one who says 'class war' in that approving way can have too much faith in Lord Obama (c) The Boss.

Edit: have just realised that the chap's Union hat is probably giving you rage as well
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No he certainly can believe it's all the right's fault.
 
dilute micro said:
True it is. But unless the people realize that the government can't change anything when the government is not in control no progress can happen. When the country was founded the government was designed to not allow it to come to this. That was the whole purpose of decentralizing the government.
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Yes but what makes this movement interesting is precisely the fact that it is not protesting government. It is protesting the economic power behind it and developing a class based analysis of the unhealthy, undemocratic nature of the relationship between corporate power and the political process as a whole. This I think is the big ideological difference between this and the tea party stuff. The tea party targets government, sees lower taxes and less state spending and advocates cutting social welfare (ie attacking the poor) as the solution and celebrates individualism. The OWS movement targets corporate financial elites, advocates social justice, redistribution of wealth and political transparency (ie attacking the powerful and wealthy) as the solution and celebrates cooperation and social solidarity. This is what I mean by left wing. A movement that consciously or not, coherently or not, has a class based view of the situation and of the enemy. On those terms Obama and the democrats are firmly on the right.
 
dylans said:
Yes but what makes this movement interesting is precisely the fact that it is not protesting government. It is protesting the economic power behind it and developing a class based analysis of the unhealthy, undemocratic nature of the relationship between corporate power and the political process as a whole. This I think is the big ideological difference between this and the tea party stuff. The tea party targets government, sees lower taxes and less state spending and advocates cutting social welfare (ie attacking the poor) as the solution and celebrates individualism. The OWS movement targets corporate financial elites, advocates social justice, redistribution of wealth and political transparency (ie attacking the powerful and wealthy) as the solution and celebrates cooperation and social solidarity. This is what I mean by left wing. A movement that consciously or not, coherently or not, has a class based view of the situation and of the enemy. On those terms Obama and the democrats are firmly on the right.
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It doesn't matter - the economic bosses and the government each make up the problem. Should the corporations be shooed away for a second they'd be right back in charge as quick as you can blink. The government itself is corrupt not only in that it hires itself out but that there is no accountability for all the other things. Look at all the earmarks that are thrown in to this bill or that one. Earmarks are technically illegal. In fact federal money can only legally be spent on things that help the whole country - not just a part. Lawmakers instead use taxpayer money to scratch the backs of their own people back home (like renovating ski resorts..etc etc). It's a culture of corruption that can't be stopped. It's the way the game is played. The bailout bill was mostly earmarks. I think only about 30% was actually for bailing the banks out. The rest was our lawmakers acting like a teenager with daddy's credit card. In recent years it's gone completely out of control.
 
dilute micro said:
It doesn't matter - the economic bosses and the government each make up the problem. Should the corporations be shooed away for a second they'd be right back in charge as quick as you can blink. The government itself is corrupt not only in that it hires itself out but that there is no accountability
for all the other things. Look at all the earmarks that are thrown in to this bill or that one. Earmarks are technically illegal. In fact federal money can only legally be spent on things that help the whole country - not just a part. Lawmakers instead use taxpayer money to scratch the backs of their own people back home (like renovating ski resorts..etc etc). It's a culture of corruption that can't be stopped. It's the way the game is played. The bailout bill was mostly earmarks. I think only about 30% was actually for bailing the banks out. The rest was our lawmakers acting like a teenager with daddy's credit card. In recent years it's gone completely out of control.
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I don't know where you are going with this. It seems that you agree with the core analysis of the OWS movement but you seem determined to remain entirely pessimistic about its potential to achieve anything. What does this amount to but a cynical dismissal of any attempt at fighting back. You also seem to contradict yourself in your haste to be as pessimistic as possible. For example you (rightly imo) say.
.
But unless the people realize that the government can't change anything when the government is not in control no progress can happen.
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But when I point out that what is exciting about the potential of this movement is precisely the fact that it is not hung up on government, you then argue that
It doesn't matter - the economic bosses and the government each make up the problem. Should the corporations be shooed away for a second they'd be right back in charge as quick as you can blink.
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What is this but a statement of futility and surrender? What you are saying is its all pointless and hopeless and we should just accept the power of unaccountable elites over our lives and go home and live with it even as our living standards are relentlessly assaulted and our lives get worse and worse.
 
dylans said:
I don't know where you are going with this. It seems that you agree with the core analysis of the OWS movement but you seem determined to remain entirely pessimistic about its potential to achieve anything. What does this amount to but a cynical dismissal of any attempt at fighting back.
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Until people realize why the government is able to be controlled and change it then movements like this won't amount to anything. The power that the federal has it isn't supposed to have. What most people want is access to that power. They think that is the answer.
 
dilute micro said:
Until people realize why the government is able to be controlled and change it then movements like this won't amount to anything. The power that the federal has it isn't supposed to have. What most people want is access to that power. They think that is the answer.
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Which is exactly the conclusions this movement is drawing. Its called occupy WALL STREET not occupy the Capital building.
 
dylans said:
Which is exactly the conclusions this movement is drawing. Its called occupy WALL STREET not occupy the Capital building.
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I haven't heard from any of them that federal power should be returned to the states. It won't happen. It won't even come close.
 
AKA pseudonym said:
Fox's anti-Wall Street Poll is failing, miserably.....
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/10/07/do-occupy-wall-street-protests-represent-your-views-economy/
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Do Occupy Wall Street protest represent your views on the economy? [183,148 total responses]
- Maybe. I am not even sure what they want----- [2.8% 4694 votes]

- No. They have no idea how jobs are created or how a free enterprise system works. -----[28.63% 52025 votes}

- Yes. These folks are right about corporate greed and what's happening to the little guy. ----[67.98% 123509 votes]

- Other (...post comment) ---- [.8% 1460 votes ]
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67.98% you say..... 67.98%.....oops!
:cool:
 
hmm, at 141,486 votes, that's an extra 6000 votes in 6 minutes. I reckon the internet might have got wind of this poll.
 
In recent days a new phase and predictable phase of analysis has shown up - the self appointed smartarse "truthers" (WAKE UP - WATCH THIS YOUTUBE CLIP!!!!) have decreed that the whole "occupation" thing is a psy-op.

We can't stay at home and be "sheeple" - it's what the NWO want.

We can't go out and protest - it's an NWO trap.

We just have to slag everyone off and assume that the NWO control everything and everyone. If we struggle then there is always another YT doc to remind ourselves how right we are.

On the other hand (and sans sarcasm) it is safe ground to assume that all successful protest movements are co opted and infiltrated to an extent? Any U75 comments on the risks and evidence during the occupations so far would be interesting. I'd rather hear balanced stuff from you guys than any more paranoid wibble from people who can barely let you make a cup of tea without suggesting MK Ultra is behind it.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
In recent days a new phase and predictable phase of analysis has shown up - the self appointed smartarse "truthers" (WAKE UP - WATCH THIS YOUTUBE CLIP!!!!) have decreed that the whole "occupation" thing is a psy-op.

We can't stay at home and be "sheeple" - it's what the NWO want.

We can't go out and protest - it's an NWO trap.

We just have to slag everyone off and assume that the NWO control everything and everyone. If we struggle then there is always another YT doc to remind ourselves how right we are.

On the other hand (and sans sarcasm) it is safe ground to assume that all successful protest movements are co opted and infiltrated to an extent? Any U75 comments on the risks and evidence during the occupations so far would be interesting. I'd rather hear balanced stuff from you guys than any more paranoid wibble from people who can barely let you make a cup of tea without suggesting MK Ultra is behind it.
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Or you get defeatist idiots on the internet posting things like this

It's professors using their paid vacatiefon to sit in a circle and do hand gestures. There's no wider connection to things like madison. No connection to popular culture/mindset. Occupying places for as long as poss - yes. Doing it like this - no.
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Of course, that was posted before unions such as the Transit Workers Union, the Teamsters, the American Federation of Teachers etc all condemned the police response and voted to support the occupations.
 
Who gives a fuck abut the mainstream press. If enough grass-roots momentum builds people will start to catch on. The old institutions need to adapt or die
 
considering the wall-to-wall coverage we had of the foaming wibble coming out from over there regarding healthcare not so long ago, UK news coverage of OWS has been woefully thin to say the least....
 
N1 Buoy said:
Who gives a fuck abut the mainstream press. If enough grass-roots momentum builds people will start to catch on. The old institutions need to adapt or die
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Well i agree, to a point. Most people still dont get their news from grass-roots organisations though...
 
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