New Secondary School in Brixton

[Anna Key]

Originally posted by pooka
Jeez - middle class guilt cascading down the generations!

Hey Pooka, you old class warrior you, it's not guilt. I'm proud of my middle-class upbringing. I simply felt sorry for my friend's sadly abused proletarian buttocks. Not a jot of guilt in me old son. It's not my fault some class-ridden sadist had a go at him.

 

[Mr Retro]

You should have been raised by the brothers/priests/sisters in Ireland.

They used to batter everybody regardless.

 

[hatboy]

"sadly abused proletarian buttocks"

Ever thought of writing homoerotic novellas AK?

 

[Anna Key]

Originally posted by hatboy
"sadly abused proletarian buttocks"

Ever thought of writing homoerotic novellas AK?

Working on it mate.

You should have been raised by the brothers/priests/sisters in Ireland.

They used to batter everybody regardless.

In a sense I prefer that. If battering is to occur at least let it be equal opportunities battering. It's this dreadful British (particularly English) snobbery I can't stand.

 

[pooka]

Originally posted by Anna Key
Hey Pooka, you old class warrior you, it's not guilt.

Only teasing, AK

More generally, whilst I've no time for private education, "erradicating" one avenue of parental choice (even though it's one restricted in the main to those who can pay) is likely to be a political minefield and strays into dodgy territory in a free society.

But charitable status is another matter. This stems from the fact that the only statute law goiverning charities dates back to Elizabeth I, and includes Education.

The recent review of charity law by the Downing Street Performance and Innovation Unit has proposed, amongst other things, that there should be a test of "public benefit" in granting charitable status. The voluntary sector is arguing for an early introduction of Bill to implement their recommendations.

It is likely that various moves by leading public schools, eg in opening facilities to local communities or sharing them with state schools or getting involved in City Academies, is in anticipation of this change, which could hit them heavily.

 

[lang rabbie]

My earlier post about Tulse Hill School in the 1950s was trying to provoke a response of what sort of school actually is wanted? SSCIL's main concern seems to be that it should be non-denominational (understandable, given the battles they have had with the Church Schools Company over the Clapham Academy).

From my personal and limited observations, there seems to be a gulf between the views of:
- some white left-of-centre professional middle class parents, who feel guilt pangs about their (predominantly) grammar school upbringings and are therefore averse to any sort of selection/specialisation, and
- some black middle class parents (both of African and Afro-Caribbean heritage), who would like something as "traditionalist" as possible - as seen in the popularity of both denominational schools and some private schools in preference to what Lambeth can offer for this group, particularly parents of boys.

This is not to mention that substantial minority of parents who sadly show little or no interest in their children's education - perhaps assuming that it won't be any better than what was on offer to them twenty years ago.

I don't know the answer, but I do tentatively incline to a view that specialised "magnet" schools could offer greater opportunities than a "bog-standard" comprehensive.

The interesting question is how far do we follow the American "magnet school" model?

Should we even consider that of Chicago where some schools are now military academies, but which do seem to finally be having some success in motivating African-American boys?

[For the avoidance of doubt, I am the product of a comprehensive education (1979-1985), and my view was that the school had far too low expectations of working class children, which were sadly fulfilled by the proportion of ungraded CSEs, whereas the sons and daughters of academics from the local Uni were expected to and did excel, despite the lack of any formal streaming. Coming from petit bourgeouis stock, I was in a somewhat ambiguous position.]

Edited to make argument slightly clearer(?)

 

[Chrysanthemum]

class boredom

I guess I'm wierd, but I just can't get very interested in all the class discussion. My grandfathers were working class (at least they didn't have much education and they did manual labour all their lives), and my Dad got a scholarship to go to uni. I don't remember any crowing over class or any guilt either. I wish people would focus on fairness and decency for everyone, but we seem to be pack animals looking for a pack (and a chance to exclude others from it).

I feel I've seen the Council using this against people who live here. Divide and you won't have to rule; divide and no one will notice that nothing's been conquered.

And I STILL don't know which politicians and council officers signed off the sale of Dick Sheppard.
Southwark wasn't stupid enough to sell the schools if they needed to close some down for a while. So now THEY have Charter School on the old Penn site (a great new bog standard comp that is doing very well taking all those scurrying class warriors from its neighborhood) while we have a block of flats with big ugly gates and a Council telling kids to go perch next to the Eurostar track.

 

[IntoStella]

class boredom

Originally posted by Chrysanthemum
I just can't get very interested in all the class discussion.

I'm sure a great many local people would entirely agree with you, 'mum.. (Can I call you 'mum? ). Class war, yadda yadda yadda. But on the other hand they would definitely not want the specific social and economic problems of an area like central Brixton to be swept under the carpet in a matter as important as the planning of a school. Moorlands is patently not Clapham.

Completely agree with you about divide and rule tactics, but as Gramsci says, it's not a matter of anyone attacking middle class people but of ensuring that the needs of all local people are met, not just those who are relatively wealthy and educated and therefore more likely to speak up and engage with the supposedly democratic structures in place locally.

And I STILL don't know which politicians and council officers signed off the sale of Dick Sheppard.

The truth will out, 'mum, I'm confident of that. It can't be that hard to find this sort of thing out. Anna Key?

 

[Gramsci]

I thought discussing personal experiences would get usual tedious jokes and "middle class guilt" remarks--why I normally refrain from discussing my personal life.

Many communists/anarchists Lenin,Trotsky,Kropotkin,Castro,Che came from "middle class" backgrounds.Was Che suffering from middle class guilt? or did he look at society he was in and made a rational decision that something better was possible?

Its not relevant where u come from.After all u get "working class" tories.

Ill have to continue later as Im at that bastion of "middle class" radicalism ICA and they want to set up their sound system.

 

[Bob]

ICA

Anyone fancy joining my crusade for those of us who only use the bar at the ICA? I reckon there are enough of us to be able to stage a coup.. All we'll have to do is get voting rights first.

 

[Gramsci]

class boredom

Originally posted by Chrysanthemum
"I guess I'm wierd, but I just can't get very interested in all the class discussion. I wish people would focus on fairness and decency for everyone, but we seem to be pack animals looking for a pack (and a chance to exclude others from it)."

I do not always focus on it as Im a postmodern type Marxist.I dont look for a pack to join-the opposite in actual fact.However the obvious(to me)ideological nature of the proposed City Academies(see my earlier posts) brings up the issue of class in both objective and subjective senses.Blair and New Labour talk in terms of "fairness and decency".Ive come to the conclusion that these terms are to wooly to mean anything now they have appropriated them.Their may also be an age difference-I was in secondary education in the seventies-Im pre Thatcher generation.Thatcher famously made us all middle class-though I think this is an myth.Looking back on it I can remember miners strike,the winter of discontent and the strongly traditional working class area(which also had a large bohemian element) where I grew up.

"I feel I've seen the Council using this against people who live here. Divide and you won't have to rule; divide and no one will notice that nothing's been conquered."

I agree with this completely.

"And I STILL don't know which politicians and council officers signed off the sale of Dick Sheppard.
Southwark wasn't stupid enough to sell the schools if they needed to close some down for a while. So now THEY have Charter School on the old Penn site a great new bog standard comp that is doing very well."

No Councillors or officers will take responsibility for the Dick Sheppard sale in written form.The school was built on part of Brockwell Park which had a covenant on it.It was parent pressure and lobbying that got Southwark kids the kind of school they wanted.

 

[Gramsci]

Originally posted by lang rabbie
My earlier post about Tulse Hill School in the 1950s was trying to provoke a response of what sort of school actually is wanted?

It did provoke a response-I looked at the link-and replied with personal and historical observations.It was the Tulse hill website that stated the first headmaster ran it as a quasi public school etc.Annas post was a personal and political observation of the grammer school system.You started this by looking at it historically.What I believe we were suggesting was that New Labours education policy is reactionary.(Correct me if Im wrong Anna.)

"From my personal and limited observations, there seems to be a gulf between the views of:
- some white left-of-centre professional middle class parents, who feel guilt pangs about their (predominantly) grammar school upbringings and are therefore averse to any sort of selection/specialisation, and
- some black middle class parents (both of African and Afro-Caribbean heritage), who would like something as "traditionalist" as possible - as seen in the popularity of both denominational schools and some private schools in preference to what Lambeth can offer for this group, particularly parents of boys."

Accusing white middle class parents of "guilt pangs" is insulting to those of them who really believe in Comprehensive education.This is in the same league as the "politics of envy" line thrown at those who want decent wages.Despite the cynical times we live in not everyone is motivated by the baser human impulses.Also New Labour say they want to get away from a "one size fits all" education system.Fair enough then they should fund several schools in a neighbourhood--comprehensive,traditionalist,experimental etc.I need to check this but I believe in Denmark or Holland the state will fund a group of parents if they want to do this.


Their are Black and White parents who are "traditionalist".See the importance of the Evangelicals in the Cof E.Also the problems at the Clapham school are caused by it being run by a Church company that is not neccasarily Black.


"I don't know the answer, but I do tentatively incline to a view that specialised "magnet" schools could offer greater opportunities than a "bog-standard" comprehensive.

The interesting question is how far do we follow the American "magnet school" model?

Should we even consider that of Chicago where some schools are now military academies, but which do seem to finally be having some success in motivating African-American boys?"


Not all Comprehensives were "bog standard".The City Academy initiatve is new, how do u know that in a few years time some CAs will be seen as "bog standard".The government is pouring a lot of money into them at the moment but that wont last.

How far "we" follow the US model is one of the points Im raising.Ive seen a programme about the Military Academies.Its scary.They "work" within their own criteria.But what kind of people are they producing-Colin Powell types who are right wing warmongering Republicans perhaps?This just backs up my point that the new CAs are ideological in a conservative way.If I had the money to "sponsor" a CA and said I wanted it to specialise in studies of Marxism,Race and Feminist theory do u really think this government would welcome me with open arms?No Id be shown the door straght away.If the government did agree they would be savaged in the press for supporting a school that "brainwashed" kids(Littlejohn would have a field day).I dont know all the answers either-but I see CAs as creeping privatisation.

" Coming from petit bourgeouis stock, I was in a somewhat ambiguous position.]"

So am I but that helps sometimes-Ive got no vested interest in the dominant order.Remember the "Sans Culottes" in the French Revolution were petit bourgeuis.

 

[Gramsci]

ICA

Originally posted by Bob
[B"]Anyone fancy joining my crusade for those of us who only use the bar at the ICA? I reckon there are enough of us to be able to stage a coup.. All we'll have to do is get voting rights first." [/B]

I was their to see an exhibition of Video/Performance work dating from the 70s.I do like the bar but am not their that often as the ICA is a bit off the beaten track for me-neither really in the West End or near S London.

Its worth being a member of the Tate if u can stump up the cash as the members bar in the Tate Modern is amazing with a balcony over the Thames.

Enough of what Nic Cohen in the Observer calls "Revolutionary chic".

 

[hatboy]

Mm, can we get over all this class stuff otherwise it'll get as tedious in here as the UK Politics Forum. My experience is that people don't generally fit into neat boxes labelled black, white, middle-class, working-class, etc.

But if you want to make yourselves look like liberal cliches you could carry on talking about class, race, Lambeth schools and.....


....joining the ICA and the Tate Members Bar!

LOL


{I'm just jealous because I'm not even "relatively wealthy". }

 

[Gramsci]

I dont think that people fit neatly into boxes either-thats why I would classify myself as a postmodern marxist.However class in the Marxist sense of an conflict between Capital and Labour can be useful when faced with creeping privatisation/corporate control.After all the threads on gentrification have been about how wealthy businssmen/develpers move in to an area and change it completely pushing out the relatively powerless.If thats not in the end about the unequal power of Capital I dont know what is.

I dont understand why discussing this important topic for Brixton makes me "a liberal cliche".

The ICA bar used to be a hangout for the RCP The most trendy of the far left in their day.

 

[hatboy]

That's a very fair answer you post-modernist-marxist cliche.

It's just all this saviours-of-the-prols one minute and see-you-in-the-Tate-Gallery-Bar-darling the next.

I think it's funny.

 

[Gramsci]

Originally posted by Anna Key

I remember asking my father about this at the time. He confirmed (the old Marxist) that my friend had been assaulted for being working class.

I said: "But that's terrible!"
He said: "This is England."

Sorry to go on but that was my initiation into good old fashioned British class warfare, age 11. [/B]

Me and Anna might be getting on a bit so remember the old pre Thatcher days(before we all became "middle class")but its still their if somewhat hidden.

Althusser(the French Marxist) pointed out that Schools have taken over from the Church as the main way to inculcate the prevailing ideology of society-terming Schools a part of the Ideological State Apparatus.They in his view are a site of class struggle-see Annas example above.Althusser IMO was trying to get away from a more simplistic Marxism that only dealt with class struggle proper ie strikes etc.

This is a more sophisticated view of class.Seeing the myriad little ways the ruling order reproduces itself,

"The mechanisms..are naturally covered up and concealed...an ideology which represents the School as a natural environment purged of ideology..no other ideological State apparatus has the obligatory audience of the totality of the children in the capitalist social formation..five or six days a week."

Of course this does not work on everyone;

"A last portion reaches the summit(of education) either to fall into intellectual semi-employment or...the agents of exploitation."

Quotes from Althussers Ideology and Ideological State Apparatuses.

I just cant think who he could be referring to heresurely not some Brixtonites

It is thus totally relevant to look at education policy critically.Its not just reading and writing thats taught at schools but the "hidden curriculam"-the insidious teaching of the "correct" values:

The ideology which suits the role it has to fulfil in class society:

"The role of the exploited(civic,national and a political)The role of the agent of exploitation(abilty to give workers orders) ,the role of agent of repression(enforce obedience)."

 

[Chrysanthemum]

Denying people education is one of the best ways to keep them down. Look at the way girls are denied the chance to learn, in places where they're not supposed to have any say.

While I understand that the education system is part of the whole system of society, and that the same groups tend to be in charge of it all, I still think it's important to understand that here in Lambeth, especially in Brixton, children are literally being denied the chance to get a decent education. The expression is that they are "being let down by the system". The fact is they don't have local schools, and lots of them fail to succeed in the distant schools full of strangers that they wind up attending. I think it's hard enough to be a teenager without losing all your friends when you go to secondary school, and I also don't see why kids have to get pitched into such a nasty and unfairly competitive battle for places (when they leave primary school they all know who are the lucky ones, who've been chosen for good schools and who are the unlucky ones).

I think the way a society treats children (and anyone else especially vulnerable) says a lot, and Lambeth has a lot to be ashamed of.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Like IntoStella....can I call you 'mum?

I agree in a more general way, but Lambeth is failing our boys even more than it fails our girls (although it is capable of failing our girls too....it's failed one of mine in a spectacular fashion, that is also unlawful....but that's another story). Lambeth is short of 1,400 secondary places per year...of the paltry amount that are available within the borough, most are in Church Scools, with more girls catered for than boys...........I forget the figures, but they are on the www.sscil.org.uk website if you are prepared to fossick....although I'm pretty pissed off with that group for the way they have pissed off Central Brixton residents with stupid 'Crime Hotspot' tabloidism in their leaflets.........

 

[hatboy]

Is Chrysanthemum my mum too?

 

[Anna Key]

class boredom

Originally posted by Chrysanthemum
And I STILL don't know which politicians and council officers signed off the sale of Dick Sheppard.

It happened in about 1995 so you'd need to dig in dusty files in the Town Hall basement.

However, you'll be pleased to hear that Lambeth's Executive Director for Education advised the NORWOOD AREA COMMITTEE
on Thursday 18th September 2003 that:

... The decision to close the Dick Shepherd School was made in 1995 at a time when it had only 130 pupils. The decision was made without fully appreciating the extent to which demand for secondary school places in the borough would grow. In hindsight, the sale of the site could be considered a mistake as inaccurate demographic projections had been used...

Fortunately the site now provides housing for local people:

Onslow Lodge, Tulse Hill, London SW2
£1000 pcm unfurnished, 2 bedroom flat

A good sized two double bedroom flat within the newly built Brockwell Gate development. The flat is in good decorative order and benefits from a designated parking space. Travel links can be found at Herne Hill and Tulse Hill BR stations.

Source

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Originally posted by Gramsci
I dont think that people fit neatly into boxes either-thats why I would classify myself as a postmodern marxist.

It's a bit of a straw man, though, isn't it? I don't know anybody who's any sort of serious Marxist who thinks you can fit people neatly into boxes. On the other hand you can't do without them if you're going to explain why different points of view are more prevalent in among some groups of people than others. You can also try and see which of these points of view possess more truth than others, which is what postmodernism tries to avoid, in its evasive and polysyllabic way. As for "postmodern marxist", a more startling oxymoron would be hard to locate outside a conference on compassionate conservatism.

 

[Gramsci]

Originally posted by Justin
As for "postmodern marxist", a more startling oxymoron would be hard to locate outside a conference on compassionate conservatism.

Really an interesting debate that needs its own thread.But heres article on Frederic Jameson and postmodern marxism,

http://www.mun.ca/phil/codgito/vol4/v4doc2.html

 

[Chrysanthemum]

Thanks very much to Anna for getting something out of the Local Ed Authority people about Dick Sheppard School. Do you need permission to go into the dusty files of 1995? I still want to know who signed off on the deal, because no one ever seems to take responsibility. (They're pretty quick with blame threats and punishment though.) Even that quote was so qualified: it could look like a mistake...!! The population forecasts were accurate!! Did they think all the teenagers were going to disappear? Would anyone say that if a hospital was failing you should close it down & forget about ever providing hospitals again? It could look like a mistake...

Never really been called Mum, but I'm pretty open to offers.

 

[Anna Key]

Originally posted by Chrysanthemum
Do you need permission to go into the dusty files of 1995?

Nah. Just ask your local Councillor to arrange it. They'd look such prats not to agree.

Incidentally am I the last person here to discover that Oliver Letwin (soon to replace IDS?) has his London home in Lambeth and said recently he would rather be a beggar than send his children to a state school:

Shadow home secretary Oliver Letwin has claimed he would rather be a beggar than send his children to a state school.

In an outspoken attack on classroom standards in London, Mr Letwin said he would give his "right arm" to pay for a private education for son Jeremy and daughter Laura.

His comments, at a fringe meeting at the Conservative Party conference, came as the Tories launched a fresh drive to reposition themselves as the party of ordinary working families.


The remarks opened up the Eton-educated politician - a director of merchant bank NM Rothschild - to Labour charges that he is out of touch.

Mr Letwin told Tory activists that people regarded him as a "toff" because of his background - and went on to tell how he was trying to get Laura, 10, into "a particular public school in London".

He added: "Miraculously, the middle-class parents with the money end up getting their children into good schools."

Mr Letwin said he "wouldn't mind" using state schools in his Dorset constituency, where his family have a home, but that he wanted to see his children during the week.

He added: "In Lambeth, where I live, I would give my right arm to send them to a fee-paying school. If necessary I would go out on the streets and beg rather than send them to the school next to where I live."
Source

I've emailed him suggesting he might care to contribute to this discussion.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I was going to suggest that they named the new school after him.

Him, or maybe Wackford Squeers.

 

[Mr Retro]

Originally posted by Anna Key


Incidentally am I the last person here to discover that Oliver Letwin (soon to replace IDS?)

Please, please, please no.

Watching him over the last few days I've never seen a more supercillious, cock sucking, asshole in my life.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

A good laugh at Letwin's expense revisited.....

originally posted by Anna Key

I have a nightmare...




Just done my bit for the Tory revival:

Passing the satelite vans by the library I spotted Oliver Letwin sitting in one of them by the open sliding doors going over his notes.

"Excuse me," I said. "Are you here for Oliver Letwin's visit?"

"Yes," he said, looking somewhat hurt.

"Where's he speaking?" I asked. "D'you happen to know?"

"In the cinema I believe," he said and appeared to have sucked on a lemon.

"Thank you very much," I said. "Goodbye."

A technician sniggered.

 

[Mr Retro]

Thanks Mrs M for reminding me (and AK too) - I can now retire and dream happy dreams of crunching the chipped rim of my (and this evening oft re-charged) wine glass into his face.

 

[Bob]

Ta Mrs M for cheering up my morning. I've been trying intermittently for a while to get somebody to ask Letwin whether he knows the name of the estate opposite his house - I'd have put a tenner on it that he doesn't.