New BBC drama - The Last Kingdom

[Pickman's model]

Admittedly it's been a while since I read the first book so I might be misremembering, but I thought York fight was on the walls rather than in a field?

in those days york was but a fenced field.

 

[youngian]

Setting yourself alight as you take on five people in a sword fight; "see you in Valhala." And ISIS think they're hard.
What's not to like and of course historically accurate; Saxons are pious dullards up against marauding, drinking, partying, wench-slapping Vikings (with a bit of Led Zeppelin in the trailer). It even had a baddie Viking with one eye like Kirk Douglas.

 

[Sprocket.]

Damn Saxons and their Johnny come lately God!
Not watched yet, I'm saving it for the weekend.
Sounds good so far.

 

[neonwilderness]

in those days york was but a fenced field.

When you were a lad?

It even had a baddie Viking with one eye like Kirk Douglas.

I thought the Kjartan/Sven bit was done pretty well, setting them up as enemies quite early on.

 

[JimW]

Always liked Ian Hart too and thought he was good, extended baptism

 

[youngian]

How accurate was the tortoise shell shield defence the Vikings used, wasn't that a Roman army tactic? Not that it matters too much.

 

[JimW]

How accurate was the tortoise shell shield defence the Vikings used, wasn't that a Roman army tactic? Not that it matters too much.

Nonsense I think but I'm no expert. Considering how much of a thing the shield wall is in the books hope they've thought through how they'll show it a bit better than that.
ETA partly because archery wasn't much of a feature in fighting at that point in time so not sure anyone would practise any sort of fancy triple decker

 

[Pickman's model]

How accurate was the tortoise shell shield defence the Vikings used, wasn't that a Roman army tactic? Not that it matters too much.

In preparation for battle the younger warriors would draw up in line, with their shields overlapping in a 'shield-wall' for better protection; their chiefs were well defended by a close bodyguard. The older veterans formed up in support behind them. Battle then began by throwing a spear over the enemy line to dedicate them to Odin, it is said, and this was followed by a shower of spears, arrows and other missiles.

BBC - History - Viking Weapons and Warfare

 

[marty21]

I enjoyed it, a few variations from the book which is always slightly annoying but I'll get over it If it is a hit, then it could go on for a few years - 7 books in the series IIRC

 

[trabuquera]

Liked the morally-ambivalent Anglo-Saxons, the hints at how their Christianity was pretty newly-minted and pagan beliefs still very much around, the even heavier hints about them being (and admitting to being) recent immigrants who'd "taken this land for ourselves" rather than being just noble honest folk who'd always been there .... liked the look of it and - most of all- the unabashed big-name big-character actor-slaying all through part 1.

Disliked the lack of skaldic poetry, the rectangular Anglo-Saxon shields (umm, no), frumpy women's fashions and the dearth of pecs throughout.

It's weird but the History Channel VIKINGS is trashier, yet also seems truer to the spirit of the age ... moar doomy and bloody and feudy.

But I'll definitely be carrying on with the BBC version.

 

[JimW]

...the rectangular Anglo-Saxon shields (umm, no)...

That struck me as horribly wrong too, maybe if it was romano-britons pretending to still be the imperium.
Agree about the slightly underwhelming feel too, more Dr Who than epic.

 

[neonwilderness]

Agree about the slightly underwhelming feel too, more Dr Who than epic.

Hopefully some of the future battles will be a bit more epic. I'm interested to see how they portray Steappa

 

[Cid]

Thought it was OK but Bebbanburh hardly looks impregnable and the topography does feature later. No dancing on the oars either

Bebbanburg is based on (or sort of literally is, it's an old name for it) Bamburgh castle.

Although obviously minus the castle and with something more like the fortifications in the TV series. So yeah, a fort on what looks like a plane is a bit crap. Although it does seem to have some cliffs in front of it.

Another one for 'wtf, square shields?' here. Should have essentially the same tactics and weapons.

Uhtred senior's death was great though...

 

[JimW]

Yes, knew that about bamburgh so was expecting more of a crag, and it needs a sea gate for later events too as I recall. I presume they have a plan.

 

[Cid]

That struck me as horribly wrong too, maybe if it was romano-britons pretending to still be the imperium.
Agree about the slightly underwhelming feel too, more Dr Who than epic.

Nah, rectangular shields disappeared in the late Roman army.

 

[JimW]

Nah, rectangular shields disappeared in the late Roman army.

Probably got this off cornwell's other stuff rather than actual history but understood some of the successor Romano-British sub-Roman polities still did a bit of shonky reenactment style roman dress-up.

 

[JimW]

Probably got this off cornwell's other stuff rather than actual history but understood some of the successor Romano-British sub-Roman polities still did a bit of shonky reenactment style roman dress-up.

ETA Oh, I see, you mean the late Romans had already ditched them?

 

[Cid]

Yeah, the late Roman armies had changed a great deal from the great legions of the past. A lot of mercenary units and even in the core legions the shields went oval some time in the late 3rd century BC. Saxons used pretty much the same gear as the Danes I think.

 

[Cid]

Non-epic is fine though. Even in the major battles forces were in the low thousands (well, so it was said last time I vaguely read something)... These are minor battles on the edge of things.

 

[neonwilderness]

Non-epic is fine though. Even in the major battles forces were in the low thousands (well, so it was said last time I vaguely read something)... These are minor battles on the edge of things.

Yeah, hopefully some of the bigger battles in the later books will be a bit more epic

 

[JimW]

Yeah, not the scale I felt was lacking so much as the feel, epic as in a time of high-blooded heroes and whatnot.

 

[Cid]

If they follow the books there should be some decent roaring of challenges and brutal duels later on.

 

[Belushi]

There were no huge battles in this period, even the Viking 'Great Heathen Army' consisted of less than a thousand men.

 

[JimW]

There were no huge battles in this period, even the Viking 'Great Heathen Army' consisted of less than a thousand men.

The whole Viking thing seemed predicated on twenty hard bastards in a boat showing up was a major force concentration most locales couldn't cope with.

 

[Pingu]

How accurate was the tortoise shell shield defence the Vikings used, wasn't that a Roman army tactic? Not that it matters too much.

the shield wall was the de rigour tactic of the era (and going back much earlier too) having been in one or two in renactments i can only imagine that the real thing was utterly terrifying, even with blunted weapons and people not actually trying to kill you its a fairly brutal place to be. the basic idea was to get an overlap and curve in your enemies flanks. once you did that the slaughtering could begin

 

[Pingu]

Probably got this off cornwell's other stuff rather than actual history but understood some of the successor Romano-British sub-Roman polities still did a bit of shonky reenactment style roman dress-up.

the time period for that was a bit earlier.

basically romans leave - britons do stuff for a couple of hundred years - saxon and angle scum invade and conquer - saxon scum do stuff for a bit - the norse come in and do similar in the north

it was the period where britins do stuff that the roman legacy remained although chester was used by both saxons and norse as a fortified city

 

[JimW]

the time period for that was a bit earlier.

basically romans leave - britons do stuff for a couple of hundred years - saxon and angle scum invade and conquer - saxon scum do stuff for a bit - the norse come in and do similar in the north

it was the period where britins do stuff that the roman legacy remained although chester was used by both saxons and norse as a fortified city

Yeah, that was the setting for his Winter King books.
Eta What I thought looked wrong with the shield wall was the three or so tiers, that seemed testudo-esque as someone mentioned but the shield wall was just overlapping with the man next to you as you said. Or did they do fancier efforts?

 

[Pingu]

hard to say. one tier is the norm when fighting as the 2nd rank are using spears to attack as well. against arrows though it would make sense but for hand to hand fighting i cant see it being practical - you would lose the press of weight needed from the rear ranks.

think of it like a rugby scrum. if you can force the opposing pack backwards you gain an advantage. in a shield wall if you can force your opponent to break their formation you can surge in and hit the rearmost ranks from bhind. if they turn to fiht you then their part of the shieldwall is weakeed and the smae happens there/

so the three tier thing just wouldnt work unless you vastly outnuymbered your opponant. inwhich cae you would just make a longer wall and curve round the flanks

 

[Serotonin]

It's also why 2 handed axes were popular. They could pull apart the shield wall, hook over the top or stick in the shield.

 

[Chilli.s]

Thought the battle scene lacked spears. The shield wall, if a real historical tactic would be countered and augmented with spears.