Nazi Concentration Camps
- Thread starter DrRingDing
- Start date
Nino: "Israel receives all this attention because unlike nations mentioned by Rachamim, Israel gets US funding." So does Pakistan, Philippines, Colombia (as you did allude to), and many others including Egypt which is ranking 2nd to Israel and yet, how many threads have appeared on U75 focusing on perceived human rights and similar issues? Then put that next to the number appearing about Israel. Even its flag is in debate on this site and it is the same with any other halfway liberal site or source of media.
You mention all those american relationships,etc. and yet we see nothing, anywhere (comparatively speaking) about them. You have not addressed the point I raised. I did not claim that America had any level of involvement with any of those nations. I asked why, with all the dirt in the world, all people can focus on is Israel.
As for your second unrelated point about Israel acting as a US proxy, Israel has been fully financially independant since 1961 and militarily since 48. It does not need US largesse. While one can see Israel adapting portions of its foreign policy to better mesh with American interests, as it did with SCUD target practice in the First Gulf War, its direct engagements do not take place because of any independant US interests.
Syria constructing a reactor is a very important concern for Israel, much more than it ever would be for America.
NewHarper: "Excesses by IDF rationalised by Holocaust expereinces,etc." You offer I belive 4 accounts of IDF excesses, which I will adress shortly, but you still have not demonstrated a single instance being justified by the Holocaust which WAs the claim.
As for the 4 accounts, I am well aware of the format. B'tzelem and Gush use this nonsense all the time. they NEVER present names or specific identifiable instances so that people involved , as in accused, could be examined. Instead it is merely CLAIMS. I can claim anything. If you are going to make bold accusations one needs to just a tad bit better than "Soldier X," etc.
As I often say, the IDF operates in a unique dynamic. The areas in question are among (Gaza is still ranked #1 worlwide I believe) the most densely populated on Earth.
These areas are also totally innundated with all forms of electronic surveillance, by a myriad of observers. Almost all adults either have one or have access to cell phones in the areas even if some quirk leaft a paticular point of interest devoid of CCTV coverage, or foreign activist "observers."
The point is, most any excess would be quite verifiable without compromising any soldier's identity, as is the rationale supplied by suich "peace" groups like B'tzelem,etc.
I will offer alot more response in 2 days, about to travel.
You mention all those american relationships,etc. and yet we see nothing, anywhere (comparatively speaking) about them. You have not addressed the point I raised. I did not claim that America had any level of involvement with any of those nations. I asked why, with all the dirt in the world, all people can focus on is Israel.
As for your second unrelated point about Israel acting as a US proxy, Israel has been fully financially independant since 1961 and militarily since 48. It does not need US largesse. While one can see Israel adapting portions of its foreign policy to better mesh with American interests, as it did with SCUD target practice in the First Gulf War, its direct engagements do not take place because of any independant US interests.
Syria constructing a reactor is a very important concern for Israel, much more than it ever would be for America.
NewHarper: "Excesses by IDF rationalised by Holocaust expereinces,etc." You offer I belive 4 accounts of IDF excesses, which I will adress shortly, but you still have not demonstrated a single instance being justified by the Holocaust which WAs the claim.
As for the 4 accounts, I am well aware of the format. B'tzelem and Gush use this nonsense all the time. they NEVER present names or specific identifiable instances so that people involved , as in accused, could be examined. Instead it is merely CLAIMS. I can claim anything. If you are going to make bold accusations one needs to just a tad bit better than "Soldier X," etc.
As I often say, the IDF operates in a unique dynamic. The areas in question are among (Gaza is still ranked #1 worlwide I believe) the most densely populated on Earth.
These areas are also totally innundated with all forms of electronic surveillance, by a myriad of observers. Almost all adults either have one or have access to cell phones in the areas even if some quirk leaft a paticular point of interest devoid of CCTV coverage, or foreign activist "observers."
The point is, most any excess would be quite verifiable without compromising any soldier's identity, as is the rationale supplied by suich "peace" groups like B'tzelem,etc.
I will offer alot more response in 2 days, about to travel.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Lock&Light said:You don't think that 80% of something is most of it?
Is this meant to be a serious point? Because it looks more like typical nitpicking for the sake of a scrap to me.
nino_savatte said:
If you understood as much as 80% of what you spout on about, I'd say you understood most of it. If, that is.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Lock&Light said:
Typical non-response from Schlock&Shite and entirely predictable. Like many of your other posts, this one is no exception: it doesn't deal with what I put to you, rather, it exists entirely in your foetid wee mind (your reply is "your posts aren't worth replying to...odd, given the fact that you always reply to my posts...or didn't you think of that?).
Your intention, as always, is to derail threads that you don't like and to pick fights with posters and then deny it. For someone who claims to have in excess of 55 years, you don't half behave like a 5 year old who's had his lolly taken away from him.
There are some who would call you a bully but you're quite clearly the wee shite who used to knock about with the bully.
nino_savatte said:Typical non-response from Schlock&Shite and entirely predictable. Like many of your other posts, this one is no exception: it doesn't deal with what I put to you, rather, it exists entirely in your foetid wee mind (your reply is "your posts aren't worth replying to...odd, given the fact that you always reply to my posts...or didn't you think of that?).
Your intention, as always, is to derail threads that you don't like and to pick fights with posters and then deny it. For someone who claims to have in excess of 55 years, you don't half behave like a 5 year old who's had his lolly taken away from him.
There are some who would call you a bully but you're quite clearly the wee shite who used to knock about with the bully.
Thank goodness that I know you love me really.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Lock&Light said:Thank goodness that I know you love me really.
If this is your new tactic, it sucks. But then, you aren't the sharpest tool in the box - are you?
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Lock&Light said:
In Canada, an 80% on an exam, gets you an "A". I think that means you understand most of the tested material.
damn!! i know i should have gone to univ of torontoJohnny Canuck2 said:
Spion: "No figures about Arab Armies." What figures would you like? I have plenty.
"Haganah had 66,000 fighters at the outbreak of war in 48." Only 18,900 were even trained, let alone fully armed and mobilised. the higher number included all members of the organisation.
Of course that included paper and penil pushers, nurses, organisers, smugglers, and so on.
18,900 (and even they wewre not all fully armed, trained, and mobilised) against the Regular Forces of 5 nations (Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq) and the Irregulars of those nations as well as practically all 57 nations now in the Islamic League. Mauritanians were fighting next to Yemeni who biouvaced with Saudi.
"Ratio of 3:1 in terms of Attackers: Defenders as any fool knows." this is not Dungeons and Dragons. Count me as a fool with 24 years Infantry experience. Your number means nothing even though in reality the ratio was actually 5:1 with Arabs being the 5 of course.
You also choose to ignore that Israel was then much more of a praiah than at any other time since the era. The US agitated against the Ratification. Its arms mostly came from surplus dealers in Europe, as well as the Czeck Govt.
The Arabs however were much better off. Jordan, whose Arab Legion was composed of crack soldiers was fully equipped and trained by the Brits. Its leader was a British military man (and Arab lackey) , Glubb Pasha. Iraq was much the same, ditto on Egypt. Syria had a large French core, as did Lebanon.
"Jews killing Arabs and stealing their homes." First, really did not happen as you see it, and any Arab home was built atop Jewish homes with more than 900 Jewish villages in the Judean portion of the "WB" alone having been destroyed in the Exile Era.Talk about invaders.
"Canuck's quote is bad because we have no idea of its context, with whom he was epaking." Let me help you. His quote is by Azzam Pasha who was then the Secretary General of the Arab League. He was speaking at the time to a meeting of the organisation although he also spoke those same words with very little variation on at least 3 other times. Lest you think it was said in a vacuum, and indeed you almost say as much,
11/29/47: Jamal Husseini , spokesman of the AHC (Arab Higher Committee)tells the UN that the Partiton will result in the Arabs drenching the soil of "Palestine" with every last drop of their blood.
12/01/47:The religous faculty at al Ahzar University in Cairo issued a Fatwa for Jihad against all Jews in relation to the UN Partition vote 2 days previously, the day on which Husseini had uttered his words.
2/16/48: The UN Palestine Commission told a Special Session of the Security Council: " Powerful Arab interests both inside and outside Palestine , are defying the Resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein." (Security Council Official Record, Special Supplement, 1948, pp.20)
4/16/48: AHC spokesman Jamal Husseini told the UN Security Council, in Special Session : "The representive of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight." (Security Council Official Record, S/Agenda/58, pp.19)
4/26/48: Jordan's King Abdullah issued a royal decree saying that it would be his "pleasure and honour to save Palestine and that "the only way left for us (Arabs) is war."
Later accounts by major participants on the Arab side also echo these words. Take the just mentioned Glubb Pasha in his book, " A Soldier With the Arabs" (1957, pp.79): " Early in Janurary, the first detachments of the Arab Liberationa Army (ALA) began to infiltrate into Palestine from Syria. Some came through Jordan and even through Amman, they were in reality to strike the first blow in the ruin of the Arabs of Palestine." (Also notice how he views the whole dynamic between "Palestinians" and their Arab "brethren").
An observer of the era, lthough an indirect participant was the UN delegate from the USSR, Andrei Gromyko. In speaking to the UN Security Council on 5/29/48 he said the following that illustrates how even future stalwart allies of the Arab Cause actually saw the Arabs' actions in that era: " This is not the first time that the Arab States, ehich organised the invasion of Palestine, have ignored a decison of the Security Council or of the General Assembly. The USSR delegation deems it essential that the Council should state its opinion more clearly and more firmly with regard to this attitude of the Arab states toward decisons of the Security Council." (Security Council Official Record, SA/Agenda/77, pp.2).
Had it only been words though...
Would you like me to outline the violence instigated by the Arabs in that same time frame? Violence that even the Un recognised and deplored while formally recognising the non-agression of the fledgling State of Israel? Let me know.
"Haganah had 66,000 fighters at the outbreak of war in 48." Only 18,900 were even trained, let alone fully armed and mobilised. the higher number included all members of the organisation.
Of course that included paper and penil pushers, nurses, organisers, smugglers, and so on.
18,900 (and even they wewre not all fully armed, trained, and mobilised) against the Regular Forces of 5 nations (Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq) and the Irregulars of those nations as well as practically all 57 nations now in the Islamic League. Mauritanians were fighting next to Yemeni who biouvaced with Saudi.
"Ratio of 3:1 in terms of Attackers: Defenders as any fool knows." this is not Dungeons and Dragons. Count me as a fool with 24 years Infantry experience. Your number means nothing even though in reality the ratio was actually 5:1 with Arabs being the 5 of course.
You also choose to ignore that Israel was then much more of a praiah than at any other time since the era. The US agitated against the Ratification. Its arms mostly came from surplus dealers in Europe, as well as the Czeck Govt.
The Arabs however were much better off. Jordan, whose Arab Legion was composed of crack soldiers was fully equipped and trained by the Brits. Its leader was a British military man (and Arab lackey) , Glubb Pasha. Iraq was much the same, ditto on Egypt. Syria had a large French core, as did Lebanon.
"Jews killing Arabs and stealing their homes." First, really did not happen as you see it, and any Arab home was built atop Jewish homes with more than 900 Jewish villages in the Judean portion of the "WB" alone having been destroyed in the Exile Era.Talk about invaders.
"Canuck's quote is bad because we have no idea of its context, with whom he was epaking." Let me help you. His quote is by Azzam Pasha who was then the Secretary General of the Arab League. He was speaking at the time to a meeting of the organisation although he also spoke those same words with very little variation on at least 3 other times. Lest you think it was said in a vacuum, and indeed you almost say as much,
11/29/47: Jamal Husseini , spokesman of the AHC (Arab Higher Committee)tells the UN that the Partiton will result in the Arabs drenching the soil of "Palestine" with every last drop of their blood.
12/01/47:The religous faculty at al Ahzar University in Cairo issued a Fatwa for Jihad against all Jews in relation to the UN Partition vote 2 days previously, the day on which Husseini had uttered his words.
2/16/48: The UN Palestine Commission told a Special Session of the Security Council: " Powerful Arab interests both inside and outside Palestine , are defying the Resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein." (Security Council Official Record, Special Supplement, 1948, pp.20)
4/16/48: AHC spokesman Jamal Husseini told the UN Security Council, in Special Session : "The representive of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight." (Security Council Official Record, S/Agenda/58, pp.19)
4/26/48: Jordan's King Abdullah issued a royal decree saying that it would be his "pleasure and honour to save Palestine and that "the only way left for us (Arabs) is war."
Later accounts by major participants on the Arab side also echo these words. Take the just mentioned Glubb Pasha in his book, " A Soldier With the Arabs" (1957, pp.79): " Early in Janurary, the first detachments of the Arab Liberationa Army (ALA) began to infiltrate into Palestine from Syria. Some came through Jordan and even through Amman, they were in reality to strike the first blow in the ruin of the Arabs of Palestine." (Also notice how he views the whole dynamic between "Palestinians" and their Arab "brethren").
An observer of the era, lthough an indirect participant was the UN delegate from the USSR, Andrei Gromyko. In speaking to the UN Security Council on 5/29/48 he said the following that illustrates how even future stalwart allies of the Arab Cause actually saw the Arabs' actions in that era: " This is not the first time that the Arab States, ehich organised the invasion of Palestine, have ignored a decison of the Security Council or of the General Assembly. The USSR delegation deems it essential that the Council should state its opinion more clearly and more firmly with regard to this attitude of the Arab states toward decisons of the Security Council." (Security Council Official Record, SA/Agenda/77, pp.2).
Had it only been words though...
Would you like me to outline the violence instigated by the Arabs in that same time frame? Violence that even the Un recognised and deplored while formally recognising the non-agression of the fledgling State of Israel? Let me know.
Spion
I hear ya
Oh shit, the Mauritanians are coming
Got any sources for any of this? Silly question really. Apart from that it's the usual collection of unsourced, unconnected quotes and flights of fantasy into ancient history.
Despite that, none of it predates Ben Gurion, Weitz et al's declared aims to clear Palestine of Arabs.
I'll deal with the rest when I get time, secure in the knowledge that you make obvious enough your dishonesty and propagandising here anyway
Got any sources for any of this? Silly question really. Apart from that it's the usual collection of unsourced, unconnected quotes and flights of fantasy into ancient history.
Despite that, none of it predates Ben Gurion, Weitz et al's declared aims to clear Palestine of Arabs.
I'll deal with the rest when I get time, secure in the knowledge that you make obvious enough your dishonesty and propagandising here anyway
Spion: "Hagananh ethnically cleansed 200 Arab villages,etc." While there were some very limited expulsions, the facts are that they have been grossly exaggerrated and the issue facing Jews who had themselves just been subject to even worse atrocities in Arab lands prior to going to Israel is plainly ignored, as is all context.
Myself, I do not feel that the context would in any way excuse any action that was atrocious, but should be included so that people here can mek up their minds with as much info as possible.
200 villages is in fact an outright lie. So is the claim that they cleansed several city quarters and committed "several massacares." I would ask you to offer a couple of examples. One that DID actually happen was Deir Yassin. This example though also serves perfectly to illustrate just how much misinfo is thrown into the mess.
I have an idea of howmany people you will tell us died there. I also have an idea of how you would describe the event, as if they were innocent villagers who were totally victimised by the Israelis. However, I will not put any words into your mouth and will instead allow you to give us a couple of examples so that I might adress them factually.
i would then like to remind people that the atrocities began in 1920 and began with Arabs against Jews. They continued unabated without a single Jewish organised response until 1936. Even then though, Arab atrocities outpaced any others and during the paticular era in question, 47 to 49, almost all were committed by Arabs alone, against Jews.
K'far Tzion?
All of Galilee before it?
The Tel-Aviv-Jerusalem Hiway?
Arabs and their defenders do need to accept facts. Were they ever victimised? Sure were but then they started it, continued it unabated, and have done so up to the present. Put things in their proper perspective.
"Hated Thief." You mean of course, people who would build homes atop 900 ruined villages?
Can i come back now after dealing with Kahani propaganda? Try actual facts Spion and leave the ad homs to others. Try and deal with the previous info posted to you.
Here is some more to mew over:
<editor: no more cut and paste please>
Myself, I do not feel that the context would in any way excuse any action that was atrocious, but should be included so that people here can mek up their minds with as much info as possible.
200 villages is in fact an outright lie. So is the claim that they cleansed several city quarters and committed "several massacares." I would ask you to offer a couple of examples. One that DID actually happen was Deir Yassin. This example though also serves perfectly to illustrate just how much misinfo is thrown into the mess.
I have an idea of howmany people you will tell us died there. I also have an idea of how you would describe the event, as if they were innocent villagers who were totally victimised by the Israelis. However, I will not put any words into your mouth and will instead allow you to give us a couple of examples so that I might adress them factually.
i would then like to remind people that the atrocities began in 1920 and began with Arabs against Jews. They continued unabated without a single Jewish organised response until 1936. Even then though, Arab atrocities outpaced any others and during the paticular era in question, 47 to 49, almost all were committed by Arabs alone, against Jews.
K'far Tzion?
All of Galilee before it?
The Tel-Aviv-Jerusalem Hiway?
Arabs and their defenders do need to accept facts. Were they ever victimised? Sure were but then they started it, continued it unabated, and have done so up to the present. Put things in their proper perspective.
"Hated Thief." You mean of course, people who would build homes atop 900 ruined villages?
Can i come back now after dealing with Kahani propaganda? Try actual facts Spion and leave the ad homs to others. Try and deal with the previous info posted to you.
Here is some more to mew over:
<editor: no more cut and paste please>
Spion : "Quoting Ben Gurion." Amazig, absolutely amzing. Just a while before the post I now adress, you make a claim of contet being important (and indeed it certainly is). Yet, here you go using a valud quote without any context and thus negating ALL of its meaning. Gurion ALSO SAID that Arabs have no case, just an incorrect perception.
Panda: "Canuck's suscpicion that in 48 most Israelis were Jews is wrong." No, you are wrong. In 48, MOST ISRAELIS were Jews. He did not say "most people in the Mandate." Since Israel was REestablished in 48, and Israel was within what we now callthe Greenline, it was MOSTLY JEWISH.
"There was no census until 54." Wrong again. There was NO ARAB CESUS, just a total demographically categorised census which is better nayway, The first one took place in 49.
Panda: "Canuck's suscpicion that in 48 most Israelis were Jews is wrong." No, you are wrong. In 48, MOST ISRAELIS were Jews. He did not say "most people in the Mandate." Since Israel was REestablished in 48, and Israel was within what we now callthe Greenline, it was MOSTLY JEWISH.
"There was no census until 54." Wrong again. There was NO ARAB CESUS, just a total demographically categorised census which is better nayway, The first one took place in 49.
Spion: "Any sources." Sources for what? Figures concerning total number of soldiers, etc.? the Israeli numbers can be found in umpteenth plces, Israeli MFA will offer them to you and it is an official statistic of our country so it should satisfy you.
The same could be true on Arab figures but instead simply look to the UN, which is where I took my numbers which are almost in synch with the ones offered by those paticular Arab Nations. I do not offer numbers on Irregulars because they vary widely but even with the minumum conceivable number, one can only imagine the onslaught.
I actually sourced to perhaps 90% of info posted today so I do not know what you are talking about in complaining about "usual" whatever. You need to face facts. Go and look up all the papers I have cited (and did so thoroughly). I do not know urls for the UN records but in NYC I personally went there and examined them. They probably do provide them online but that should be soemthing you can easily ascertain on your own. Noone should need more that what I have provided. To complain because urls are not given is just silly. Research existed long before the Net.
"Ben Gurion." You have never read the man wo how would you know? He wrote in Hebrew. You might have read translations but I doubt it since every quote from him you post is mistaken, except for the vey last one and even that was offered out of total context so thats meaning is gone.
Gurion never talked of annihilation nor ridding the land of Arabs. Had he wanted it, why would almost 200,000 have stayed put anf blossomed into 2 plus million? Your thought makes no sense. I happen to have Ben Gurion quotes to the fdirect opposite of the one you jus reference in yuor last post. Ever read, "Rebirth and Destiny"? Please, leave propaganda sites alone.
As for your prsonal insults, I belive I will stop responding to anything in any post containing any insult to anyone. It is such a wate of time to try and reason with such nasty people.
The same could be true on Arab figures but instead simply look to the UN, which is where I took my numbers which are almost in synch with the ones offered by those paticular Arab Nations. I do not offer numbers on Irregulars because they vary widely but even with the minumum conceivable number, one can only imagine the onslaught.
I actually sourced to perhaps 90% of info posted today so I do not know what you are talking about in complaining about "usual" whatever. You need to face facts. Go and look up all the papers I have cited (and did so thoroughly). I do not know urls for the UN records but in NYC I personally went there and examined them. They probably do provide them online but that should be soemthing you can easily ascertain on your own. Noone should need more that what I have provided. To complain because urls are not given is just silly. Research existed long before the Net.
"Ben Gurion." You have never read the man wo how would you know? He wrote in Hebrew. You might have read translations but I doubt it since every quote from him you post is mistaken, except for the vey last one and even that was offered out of total context so thats meaning is gone.
Gurion never talked of annihilation nor ridding the land of Arabs. Had he wanted it, why would almost 200,000 have stayed put anf blossomed into 2 plus million? Your thought makes no sense. I happen to have Ben Gurion quotes to the fdirect opposite of the one you jus reference in yuor last post. Ever read, "Rebirth and Destiny"? Please, leave propaganda sites alone.
As for your prsonal insults, I belive I will stop responding to anything in any post containing any insult to anyone. It is such a wate of time to try and reason with such nasty people.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
rachamim18 said:
I think I should report this rather lengthy cut and paste.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Johnny Canuck2 said:
Says Mr. Google-it-quick-and-hope-nobody-notices.
nino_savatte said:
Why, then, did you feel it nessessary to repeat the whole lot?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Lock&Light said:
You really quite thick, aren't you? You also misspelled "necessary". There are only tow "s's" in the word.
nino_savatte said:
Only 'tow'? How quaint!
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Lock&Light said:Only 'tow'? How quaint!
At least my error was a typo, unlike your misspelling.
nino_savatte said:At least my error was a typo, unlike your misspelling.
Aw diddums!
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Lock&Light said:Aw diddums!
Aye, you are a psychopath...as this post clearly demonstrates.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
editor said:FFS: so why go and requoute the entire thing and make more work for the mods?
You sound just like L&L. What the fuck was I supposed to do?
nino_savatte said:
Snip away most of the quote, perhaps?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Lock&Light said:
I find it odd, how posters like you are allowed to go around and harass posters and derail threads. I also think it's rather odd that you are allowed to do this when other posters are banned for less.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
rachamim18 said:
Then please provide those sources?
Niuno: PLEASE do report it.
Ediotr: Actually, I do not even know how to cut and paste, hence my liberal use of quotation marks. Since I believe it is possible for mods to trace , or perhaps just administrators, to trace ISPs, I would imagine that they could ascertain whether or not I composed it myself or simply nabbed it,etc. For the record, I composed it myself.
Funny though, all the attention on that silly issue and nary an iota for the 3/4rths of this thread that is nothing more than personal insults flying back and forth. Quite curious.
(Edited for spelling and capitlisation)
Ediotr: Actually, I do not even know how to cut and paste, hence my liberal use of quotation marks. Since I believe it is possible for mods to trace , or perhaps just administrators, to trace ISPs, I would imagine that they could ascertain whether or not I composed it myself or simply nabbed it,etc. For the record, I composed it myself.
Funny though, all the attention on that silly issue and nary an iota for the 3/4rths of this thread that is nothing more than personal insults flying back and forth. Quite curious.
(Edited for spelling and capitlisation)
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
rachamim18 said:
If I report anything that L&L does, it is ignored. He enjoys a good deal of impunity and is pretty much allowed to do as he likes.
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