Misogynist barbarians in Alabama impose forced pregnancy law

[8ball]

Nutty fringe groups like the Republicans in the Missouri legislature?



Or perhaps you feel you can dismiss the Idaho state rep as a lone nutter?



These people really are theocrats trying to control women's bodies in the name of their shithouse God, I don't know where you get off dismissing this kind of thing like you do.

Abortifacients and devices preventing implantation were always part of the pro-lifers' agenda.
Just as calling them "contraceptives" was always mealy-mouthed.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Abortifacients and devices preventing implantation were always part of the pro-lifers' agenda.
Just as calling them "contraceptives" was always mealy-mouthed.

You mean IUDs? I really don't think it is mealy-mouthed to call those contraceptives.

 

[8ball]

You mean IUDs? I really don't think it is mealy-mouthed to call those contraceptives.

Fair point re: IUD's - current medical consensus is that it prevents conception much more often than implantation.
It is the latter that pro-lifers object to, though. Also, the mechanism (or lack of knowledge of it) has often not been made clear to people with pro-life sentiments.

 

[tim]

So, so glad there is a border between us and them....

Yes, there's a border between Ukraine and Russia too.

 

[tim]

Fair point re: IUD's - current medical consensus is that it prevents conception much more often than implantation.
It is the latter that pro-lifers object to, though. Also, the mechanism (or lack of knowledge of it) has often not been made clear to people with pro-life sentiments.

It depends on which pro-lifers the Roman Catholic objects to contraception as well and the Michigan politician in Johnny Vodka's post is being interviewed on an Conservative Catholic TV station

Don't know how likely this, but still.

Banning abortions is just the start – next the US right want to outlaw contraception | Arwa Mahdawi

Jacky Eubanks wants to be a Michigan senator – and to ban contraception. And she’s not the only one, writes Arwa Mahdawi

www.theguardian.com

 

[8ball]

It depends on which pro-lifers the Roman Catholic objects to contraception as well and the Michigan politician in Johnny Vodka's post is being interviewed on an Conservative Catholic TV station

Fair point on the Catholics. They are something of a minority sport in the States, though.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

Fair point on the Catholics. They are something of a minority sport in the States, though.

Are they? I'd always got the impression that there were plenty of them.

 

[8ball]

Are they? I'd always got the impression that there were plenty of them.

Well, sizeable minority. About 23%. There are about twice as many Protestants.
Outlawing contraception isn't going to be easy with those numbers.

There are some other very small anti-contraception Christian (and Christian-ish) groups but they don't add up to much.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Catholics are not the biggest problem here, though. It's primarily evangelical protestants that Republicans are appealing to with their anti-abortion shit. They're the primary political religious-right for whom this is a crucial (often the crucial) issue. Seems they are something around 25% of the population, roughly equal to Catholics. But while Catholics split roughly 50-50 on abortion, evangelical (white) protestants are overwhelmingly anti-abortion in all circumstances. They're the fanatics.

 

[tim]

Fair point on the Catholics. They are something of a minority sport in the States, though.

21% of those who self-identity as Christian are Roman Catholic, and a large proportion of the rest won't be the clichéd Republican evangelicals but members of liberal Mainline Protestant Churches, African American Churches, Orthodox, Unitarians and Mormons.

There are very noisy far-Right Catholic media outlets in the US who are not big fans of Pope Frank or much of the hierarchy which they consider heretically liberal and modernist. I don't know how influential they are in the average Catholic Parish.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

21% of those who self-identity as Christian are Roman Catholic, and a large proportion of the rest won't be the clichéd Republican evangelicals but members of liberal Mainline Protestant Churches, African American Churches, Orthodox, Unitarians and Mormons.

About half of all protestants in the US are of the nutjob evangelical variety. (And Mormons are also fucking fanatics.)

Evangelicals Show No Decline, Despite Trump and Nones

 

[8ball]

Catholics are not the biggest problem here, though. It's primarily evangelical protestants that Republicans are appealing to with their anti-abortion shit. They're the primary political religious-right for whom this is a crucial (often the crucial) issue. Seems they are something around 25% of the population, roughly equal to Catholics. But while Catholics split roughly 50-50 on abortion, evangelical (white) protestants are overwhelmingly anti-abortion in all circumstances. They're the fanatics.

We were discussing in the context of them moving on to ban contraception, hence Catholics becoming more relevant.

This is imo a scare being cooked up by the US "left" based on some discussions over what are at the very least abortion-adjacent methods of birth control.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Catholics are not the biggest problem here, though. It's primarily evangelical protestants that Republicans are appealing to with their anti-abortion shit. They're the primary political religious-right for whom this is a crucial (often the crucial) issue. Seems they are something around 25% of the population, roughly equal to Catholics. But while Catholics split roughly 50-50 on abortion, evangelical (white) protestants are overwhelmingly anti-abortion in all circumstances. They're the fanatics.

The anti-abortion crowd has filled them with the idea that most birth control methods are the same as abortion in the way they work. They believe it kills fertilized, unborn embryos. If you believe that it doesn't make sense that they'll prohibit abortion, while leaving birth control alone.

I have also had one anti-abortion person tell me that they don't believe in exceptions for rape because "a woman can't get pregnant from rape. If she "enjoyed" it enough to get pregnant, it wasn;t a rape.

Some of them have very little understanding of how the human body works.

 

[8ball]

The anti-abortion crowd has filled them with the idea that most birth control methods are the same as abortion in the way they work. They believe it kills fertilized, unborn embryos. If you believe that it doesn't make sense that they'll prohibit abortion, while leaving birth control alone.

I have also had one anti-abortion person tell me that they don't believe in exceptions for rape because "a woman can't get pregnant from rape. If she "enjoyed" it enough to get pregnant, it was a rape.

Some of them have very little understanding of how the human body works.

I've heard the nutty stuff like in your second example before, a case of reverting to superstition when faced down by difficult arguments, but ime pro-lifers are generally more knowledgeable than the average person when it comes to the specifics of fertilisation, gestation etc.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

The anti-abortion crowd has filled them with the idea that most birth control methods are the same as abortion in the way they work. They believe it kills fertilized, unborn embryos. If you believe that it doesn't make sense that they'll prohibit abortion, while leaving birth control alone.

I have also had one anti-abortion person tell me that they don't believe in exceptions for rape because "a woman can't get pregnant from rape. If she "enjoyed" it enough to get pregnant, it was a rape.

Some of them have very little understanding of how the human body works.

As if being raped is enjoyable. I hope you killed them in the face.

 

[NoXion]

Fair point re: IUD's - current medical consensus is that it prevents conception much more often than implantation.
It is the latter that pro-lifers object to, though. Also, the mechanism (or lack of knowledge of it) has often not been made clear to people with pro-life sentiments.

I think you care way more about the difference than they do themselves. Point is, women should be able to control their own bodies, and they disagree with that.

 

[frogwoman]

Russia has fairly limited access to contraception lol but birth rates aren't particularly high and abortion is often used in place of contraception iirc.

 

[frogwoman]

Nah IUDs are needed for other stuff like endometriosis treatment. Never heard of them being used for abortion tbh. This is just 'every sperm is sacred' shite

 

[Ax^]

I've heard the nutty stuff like in your second example before, a case of reverting to superstition when faced down by difficult arguments, but ime pro-lifers are generally more knowledgeable than the average person when it comes to the specifics of fertilisation, gestation etc.

what prolifers have you been watching tbf?


most seem unable to tell the difference between a human embryo and a dolphin

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I wonder how strong the correlation is between the pro-life lobby and the pro-gun one.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Nah IUDs are needed for other stuff like endometriosis treatment. Never heard of them being used for abortion tbh. This is just 'every sperm is sacred' shite

Yeah got to avoid falling into the trap of taking other people's assumptions seriously and talking like they make sense, imo. It's not abortion cos it's preventing pregnancy. One off the ways IUDs can prevent pregnancy is by preventing a blastocyst from implanting. And if you don't consider the moment of fertilisation to be some kind of 'magic' god-given moment, you don't have to follow the logic of those who do.

 

[8ball]

what prolifers have you been watching tbf?

Used to know a few.

 

[8ball]

I think you care way more about the difference than they do themselves. Point is, women should be able to control their own bodies, and they disagree with that.

No, the difference is critical to them. Nothing they do will make sense unless you understand this.

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah got to avoid falling into the trap of taking other people's assumptions seriously and talking like they make sense, imo. It's not abortion cos it's preventing pregnancy. One off the ways IUDs can prevent pregnancy is by preventing a blastocyst from implanting. And if you don't consider the moment of fertilisation to be some kind of 'magic' god-given moment, you don't have to follow the logic of those who do.

I thought the argument was that life began at conception, not before?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Strikes me that elevating the moment an egg is fertilised by a sperm to a sacred, special place is a very male-centred attitude. It's when the man's bit does its thing. So what?

 

[Ax^]

Used to know a few.

and i'm sure a few appeared quite knowlegable in the stuff they believed in

not sure if that mean you could call them experts on the specifics of fertilisation, gestation etc.

but i never met them

the general wankers holding up placards outside abortion clinics appear like fuckwits

 

[frogwoman]

There's at least one crazy republican who's asked to ban condoms

 

[8ball]

Nah IUDs are needed for other stuff like endometriosis treatment. Never heard of them being used for abortion tbh. This is just 'every sperm is sacred' shite

Not “used for abortion” as such. The objection is based on the IUD preventing implantation of an embryo.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I thought the argument was that life began at conception, not before?

These are other people's arguments so I may well be wrong, but my understanding is that, since the time it was demonstrated how sperm and eggs come together at the moment of fertilisation, for some this is when life starts. It's an arbitrary position, though. No need for the rest of us to agree.

 

[frogwoman]

Proper mental. 'The sin of Onan' etc