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mass grave of 800 infants found at Galway 'fallen women' home

Idaho said:
I have never met nor even seen a photo of VP, but I am pretty damn certain that he wouldn't qualify as a hipster.
Click to expand...

I'm too old, too unobsessed by "cool", and my beard isn't of the "wildman" type sported by hipsters.
Also, I don't drink coffee, whether yer milky lattes or yer espressos.
 
weepiper said:
Has it occurred to you bubbles that it is not 'the Irish' on one side and 'the British' on the other, on this thread?
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Who's talking about sides?
I wasn't.
History isnt about "sides"
It's about facts.
Any reference I made to the British government was about the British government. Why would you even think it was about "sides"? Do you think the poor british subjects in england had any chance of changing the situation?
How odd to reduce my posts to an us against them side taking load of bollocks!
 
Lemon eddy...and anyone interested ▼▼▼▼▼

http://www.opendemocracy.net/martin-shaw/britain-and-genocide

http://homepage.eircom.net/~archaeology/two/famine.htm

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities

http://irishpotatofamine.net/potato-famine-eye-witness-accounts/

http://listverse.com/2014/02/04/10-evil-crimes-of-the-british-empire/


Idaho said:
Do you know the difference between expressing an opinion/presenting an argument and just banging on and on hoping that somehow everyone is going to see the light and agree with you?

Why do you suppose that either I am unaware of British history, or that I am somehow responsible for it?
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I think you are unaware of the british empire's atrocities.
I think most people in the UK do not want to know what has been done in their name right up to the present day. And in a way I don't blame them or you for not wanting to know but a time has to come where people stand up and reflect and admit to atrocities carried out by their leaders in their name.
I am including all nations that have dominated others. All powerful groups that have squashed the powerless...including religious groups of every denomination.....and yes I am of course including the rc church in Ireland.
 
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So anyway.

There was a vigil in Auckland last week for these children. I wasn't able to make it sadly but from what I heard a few people were able to korero their own stories of how the horrors of these homes had influenced their lives. Lots of Irish ancestry out here.

10447662_10152284780839261_1815784468844840228_n.jpg
 
The Irish Examiner has some interesting views on the society that forced young unmarried mothers into these homes.
There is a call for the magdalene laundries and other homes yo be included in the investigation into the mother and babies homes

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/groups-call-for-laundries-to-be-included-in-probe-272087.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/analys...id-churchrsquos-bidding-over-tuam-272090.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpo...d-look-closer-to-home-for-answers-271902.html
 
http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/...ed-in-vigils-around-the-country-30348551.html

Vigil this past week to the Dail and sround Eyre square Galway. More to be held today....

One victims life

"Survivor Con Carroll, who was born at Sean Ross Abbey in
Roscrea, Co Tipperary, in 1964
said the revelations had
brought back flashbacks of his
institutional childhood. He
suffered a stroke at birth, had
never met his mother and was
never adopted, he said. - See more at: http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/...he-country-30348551.html#sthash.gpPJI6kx.dpuf
 
bubblesmcgrath said:
Lemon eddy...and anyone interested ▼▼▼▼▼

http://www.opendemocracy.net/martin-shaw/britain-and-genocide

http://homepage.eircom.net/~archaeology/two/famine.htm

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities

http://irishpotatofamine.net/potato-famine-eye-witness-accounts/

http://listverse.com/2014/02/04/10-evil-crimes-of-the-british-empire/




I think you are unaware of the british empire's atrocities.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the links.

I think you're incorrect though to say that people are ignorant of past atrocities such as the potato famine. For example, in Scotland at least the famine is part of the curriculum, and was taught with no uncertainty as to how it was ruthlessly caused, prolonged and used for political ends.

If possible have you got any links that give some details regarding your statement that "The rc church in ireland from 1840's on was bought by the British government and it set about doing it's job of controlling the irish". I'll admit I've not heard anything about that before
 
Lemon Eddy said:
Thanks for the links.

I think you're incorrect though to say that people are ignorant of past atrocities such as the potato famine. For example, in Scotland at least the famine is part of the curriculum, and was taught with no uncertainty as to how it was ruthlessly caused, prolonged and used for political ends.

If possible have you got any links that give some details regarding your statement that "The rc church in ireland from 1840's on was bought by the British government and it set about doing it's job of controlling the irish". I'll admit I've not heard anything about that before
Click to expand...

The Goretti Horgan article quoted a few times in this thread is the one you need to read....

Edit....

It's well known why the British government built Maynooth. The irish priests trained in France were coming home with ideas of revolutionism. The graduates of maynooth became pro government and pro establishment. This version of rc became a bought and paid for established church

The college was particularly intended to provide for the education of Catholic priests in Ireland, who until this Act had to go to the continent for training. The added value in this was the reduction of the number of priests returning from training in revolutionary France (with whom Britain was at war) thus hindering potential revolution. The value to the government was proved by the condemnation by the Catholic Church hierarchy of the 1798 rebellion and later support for the Act of Union."
 
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And...

"Following the controversy regarding theMaynooth Grant, the College received a higher annual grant from the British Government, as well as a sum for repairs. In 1845, the British government under Robert Peel increased the annual grant to Maynooth College from £9,000 to £26,000, and provided a capital grant of £30,000 for building extensions again. However this was controversial as Roman Catholics saw it as a bribe, while most Protestants were not in favour of the government funding Roman Catholic education.[9][10] For example the Anti-Maynooth Conferencewas hosted in London in May 1845 by Conservatives, evangelical Anglicans and the Protestant Association to campaign against the Maynooth Grant.[11]

Oath of Allegiance
As part of the Act on which Maynooth College was founded, students and trustees of the college were expected to take an Oath of Allegiance to the Crown,.[12] "

Have a look at this too lemon eddy ▼▼
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10087b.htm
 
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10087b.htm

Actually the article above is well cited with sources for further study if you're interested......

HEALY, Maynooth College, Its Centenary History (Dublin, 1895); Calendarium Collegii Sancti Patricii (Dublin); A Record of the Centenary Celebration. . .Maynooth College (Dublin, 1895);Cornwallis Correspondence: Memoirs of Viscount Castlereagh; Life and Times of Henry Grattan; Hansard's Parliamentary Debates; Correspondence of Edmund Burke; GLADSTONE, The State in its Relation to the Church; HOGAN,Maynooth College and the Laity (Dublin)

And

Hogan, J.(1911).Maynooth College. In The Catholic Encyclopedia.New York: Robert Appleton Company.

Hogan, John."Maynooth College."The Catholic Encyclopedia.Vol. 10.New York: Robert Appleton Company,1911.15 Jun. 2014

Nihil Obstat.October 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
 
Lemon Eddy said:
Thanks for the links.

I think you're incorrect though to say that people are ignorant of past atrocities such as the potato famine. For example, in Scotland at least the famine is part of the curriculum, and was taught with no uncertainty as to how it was ruthlessly caused, prolonged and used for political ends.

If possible have you got any links that give some details regarding your statement that "The rc church in ireland from 1840's on was bought by the British government and it set about doing it's job of controlling the irish". I'll admit I've not heard anything about that before
Click to expand...


Also....
London: Printed by A. SroraswooDE, Jfsir - Street- Square.

THE

MIRROR

OF

PARLIAMENT.

THE THIRD SESSION OF THE
FOURTEENTH PARLIAMENT OF GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND,

IN THE

THIRD AND FOURTH YEARS OF THE REIGN OF QUEEN VICTORIA,

APPOINTED TO MEET JANUARY 16. AND FROM THENCE
CONTINUED TILL AUGUST 11. 1840.

EDITED BY

JOHN HENRY BARROW, Esq.

BABRISTSR AT LAW.

Session Of 1840.
VOL. V.

LONDON:

PUBLISHED DY

LONGMAN,. ORME, BROWN, GREEN, & LONGMANS,
PATERNOSTER-ROW; JOHN MURRAY, ALBEMARLE-STREET;

AND

J. RICHARDS & CO., FLEET-STREET.

1840.


Complete records of debates etc including those on the establishment and maintenance of grants to maynooth...

Here's a short excerpt. ..

Quote
The case of Maynooth rests on a clear contract entered into before the Union, and ratified by Act of Parliament. I have been a good deal surprised that this Act has never been quoted—at least, has never been relied on —as strongly as it ought to have been in this House. In 1795, the British Government felt that the foregn education of theCatholic priesthood was a very great

evil. They became apprehensive that doctrines hostile to British interestsmight be diffused through Ireland through the system of instruction which then prevailed; the infusion of Jacobinism into foreign seminarieswas dreaded, and it was considered to be most impolitic to encourage a continental connection with Ireland, through the colleges in which theCatholic clergy had, previously to thefoundation of Maynooth, been educated. It does strike me, indeed, to be most preposterous to intrust to foreigners, who may become our worst foes, the instruction of men who exercise, and ought and must continue to exercise, so vast and so legitimate an influence over the Irish people. The Catholic clergy are a most powerful corporation; theparochial minister is found in every priest, and over the whole frame of our Church presides a hierarchy composed of able and enlightened men, whose talents, whose station, and whose virtues concur in giving them a great and inevitable sway. We have, in our Church, all the advantages resulting from a divisionthe most minute, accompanied by a perfect centralisation. It seems obvious, then, that the members of such a body ought not to be driven from their country to seek for that instruction among your enemies or your rivals, which you are now called on to deny them. Mr. Pitt felt that the ministers of Catholic Ireland ought not to be conductors of French principles or instruments of French machinations; and, accordingly, theCollege of Maynooth was founded and endowed under the 35th of George III. That Act recites theexpediency of endowing a Catholic seminary, and a grant of 8000/. (after various provisions for theestablishment and regulation ofMaynooth) is made by that Act of Parliament. The college having been thus endowed, another Act waspassed in 1800, confirming theformer Act, and making further regulations. Thus Maynooth, beforethe Union, became one of thenational institutions of Ireland. "


And another quote from Robert Peel....

"Thecollege was established at a time when religious animosity ran very high, when there was a much greater objection to the principle than at present; and yet a Parliament, exclusively Protestant, consented tothe institution of that college, at theinstance of men well affected to the Established Church, for the express purpose of discouraging a system of education which tended to infect Roman Catholic priests with Jacobinical views. This was beforethe Union; but the grant survived theAct of Union, being continued by Mr. Perceval, who, in 1806, reduced it, but afterwards restored it to its original amount. He did this, too, at a time when religious animosities were at the highest, after the election in 1806; and I think that thecontinuation of it at that time was astrong proof that the Minister considered the public faith involved. It continued after the removal of theCatholic disabilities, and, as I said before, I am not now prepared to give any pledge for its removal. I cannot help thinking that thepolitical consequences of the pledge now asked would be of a serious character. I feel that the pledge would be considered as indicating a spirit of hostility to our Catholic fellow countrymen. But, while supporting the principle of the grant, 1 cannot also subscribe to a sentiment which I have heard attributed to the Noble Lord opposite. I cannot agree, that, in passing the grant, a contract wasever implied to prevent theLegislature from interfering, shouldthe money be perverted to improperpurposes. I cannot agree that thesystem of education carried on there is a matter of indifference to the Legislature. I think thatthe system pursued at Maynooth is a legitimate matter of consideration for Parliament, and that it would be an abandonment of duty were theHouse of Commons to avow a doctrine which would allow us to say to the Roman Catholic professor, "Here is the money; we are pledged to grant it; you may do with it as you please; inculcate doctrines subversive of order, and injurious to morality; but we cannot interfere." However, I recollect that the College of Maynooth has already been thesubject of minute inquiry; that theevidence taken was laid on the table; and that, notwithstanding that evidence, I considered it perfectly reconcilable with my duty to continue my support to the grant. If there be any well-founded objection to the system of Maynooth, all I can say is, that the principals of thecollege would be, of all others, thepersons most interested in repelling them, and challenging inquiry. I would advise them to do so, by all means, for the sake of conciliating their Protestant brethren. Nothing short of absolute proof of abuse will render it proper for the House to enter into a pledge as to the positive withdrawal of this grant. But, if all those complaints were removed, I should vote for the grant with much greater satisfaction than I do now, when so strong an impression prevails that the system of education stands in need of improvement. I trust, Sir, that I have now fairly avowed my opinions in answer tothe challenge of the Honourable Member, without attempting to rebuke my Honourable Friends, but, at the same time, without endeavouring to conceal thedifference between us."


 
And again....I apologise to those who will be pissed off at the quotes above.

But as so many posters say in threads on equality etc....context is important.

And when the RC church in Ireland is at the centre of controversy then there will be a multitude of contexts to consider ...including social, historical and political context.



This is not do deny any individual responsibility on behalf of religious personnel working in the laundries and mother and baby homes.
 
bendeus said:
Ah! That's what marasmus is.
Tragic toll of infants lost to hunger and epidemics
In the winter of 1926, 24 babies died in the space of two months when measles swept through the home.
PreviousNext1/2
Review--Irish--Babies-3.jpg

Memorial: site of the mass grave in Tuam – there are many other burial grounds in Ireland. Photo: Niall Carson.
tuam+vigil+app.jpg

People leave candles and mementos during a march and candlelit vigil from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs to the gates of Dail Eireann on Merrion Square, Dublin, in memory of the Tuam babies. PA

THEY are the babies that society has tried to forget. Many were born in "shameful" circumstances to unmarried or impoverished mothers at a home in Tuam.
Those who weren't given up for adoption were sent to industrial schools or Magdalene Laundries.

Seven-hundred and ninety-six babies died, their resting place unmarked.

The local historian who discovered the scale of baby deaths in St Mary's can find no burial records. They are thought to have been buried in unmarked graves on the site of an old septic tank. There is no plot with their names on it that says they lived – for however short a period – or that they died.

Today we publish for the first time official public records documenting the harsh, short lives of the 796 babies and children who died in Tuam.

The records, compiled by the General Register Office and released on Friday to this newspaper, do not say where the babies are from to protect their privacy. The records give the babies the dignity of being called by their name, while the notes and causes of death entered after their names tell their own story.

Patrick Derrane, who was five months old and who died of gastroenteritis in August 1925, was the first recorded baby death. The last was Mary Carty, who died in January 1960. She was four-and-a-half months old and her death attributed to a "fit". A note on her entry simply says: "Was a restless baby." The Bon Secours closed the home the following year.

Some babies are registered only by their surname, mostly because they were born premature. There is "Unknown" Bell, a boy born at 26 weeks in 1950 and dead three hours later; "Unknown" Maye, a girl, who was five days old and died in 1945 of a cerebral haemorrhage; and four-day-old "Baby" Fallon, a boy who died in May 1957, of sudden circulatory failure.

There were epidemics for every decade of the home's existence. In the winter of 1926, measles swept through the Tuam mother and baby home, taking with it 24 babies in just two months.

Mary Wade, three years and three months, was the first child to die of it, on April 5. Maud McTigue, six-and-a-half, died of measles and meningitis three days after Mary Wade. The rest succumbed in quick succession. On 22 April, three children died; John Carty, who was one year and nine months, Madeline Bernard, who was two-and-a-half, and Maureen Kenny, who was eight. There were 39 deaths at the Tuam home that year, and measles accounted for two-thirds of them.

There were many more outbreaks. In 1936, 22 babies died in another measles epidemic. Thirteen babies died in April and May 1944. Seventeen died in June and July 1947.

The babies died of congenital conditions, viral and bacterial infections, abscesses, blood poisoning, whooping cough, and simply from being "debilitated since birth" or "delicate". Some also died of hunger. Marasmus is a form of acute malnutrition in children and young infants who are not getting enough to eat, and not getting enough nutrients. Children who suffer from it look emaciated and their stomachs are swollen.

Ten babies had "marasmus" listed as their cause of death. In other words, they died of hunger. They include Patrick Kelly, two-and-a-half months old, who died in 1929 and Patricia Judge, who died in July 1932. But why did four babies die of hunger in 1933? Mary Finola Cunniffe, six months old, died in May that year and John Kilmartin, who was two months, in August. Brigid Holland, aged two months, died of marasmus, asthma and cardiac failure in September. So did Mary Brennan, four months old, who had marasmus for three months.

The others were Patrick John Loftus, who died in May 1937 aged 10 months; Margaret Linnane who died in January 1938, aged three and a half months; Teresa Heneghan died a few days after Margaret on 23 January 1938; the last recorded death from malnutrition was Brigid Hurley who died in October 1939, aged 10-and-a-half months. Cause of death was "dyspepsia and marasmus since birth".

Sunday Independent

- See more at: http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/...-epidemics-30355002.html#sthash.10XiN2zP.dpuf
Click to expand...
 
http://m.independent.ie/opinion/com...but-the-state-knew-what-went-on-30340988.html

Also happened in homes for mothers and babies run by protestant church in Ireland.

This article on Bethany house is equally horrifying in that light was thrown on the problem temporarily and for a short time death rates lowered but once the managers decided to limit intake to only protestant mothers the spotlight was removed and death tolls rose once again.

The state was fully aware as can be seen in the article above.

Another horrifying fact is that there are documents and letters from staff in both catholic and protestant run homes to the state outlining the serious problems they were having.

http://m.independent.ie/opinion/com...te-ignored-homes-pleas-for-help-30354998.html
 
bendeus said:
Ah! That's what marasmus is. Ironic that a Latin word is used to provide an anodyne and respectable veneer to murder by neglect by an institution that at the time was trading in that very tongue.
Click to expand...
Medical officers seldom use colloquial terms when filling in the cause of death. Marasmus is the medical term for the effects of an overall deficiency in caloric intake to the eventual extent that the body becomes incapable of synthesising muscle tissue, it's no more a euphemism than kwashiorkor. It's not only caused by a lack of food, it can be partly caused by dehydration.

So if you've got a place with lots of very small children, poor sanitation, a barely adequate diet, and next to no effort made to even get enough fluid into them, the chances are they'll develop marasmus if an infection doesn't kill them first. :mad:
 
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Greebo said:
Medical officers seldom use colloquial terms when filling in the cause of death. Marasmus is the medical term for the effects of an overall deficiency in caloric intake to the eventual extent that the body becomes incapable of synthesising muscle tissue, it's no more a euphemism than kwashiorkor. It's not only caused by a lack of food, it can be partly caused by dehydration.

So if you've got a place with lots of very small children, poor sanitation, a barely adequate diet, and next to no effort made to even get enough fluid into them, the chances are they'll develop marasmus if an infection doesn't kill them first. :mad:
Click to expand...

Looking at the ages of the ones that have that on their death certificate I wonder if a lot of them might have been diagnosed with reflux these days and put on Gaviscon. Sicky babies, being fed formula or cow's milk or on a rigid 4-hour feed schedule despite puking it back up again.
 
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