mass grave of 800 infants found at Galway 'fallen women' home

[Idaho]

The Armenian massacre is swept under the carpet by the Turks. The Nanjing massacre swept under the carpet by the Japanese. Several massacres in India were swept under the carpet by the British. But the Irish famine? It's been talked about and researched, etc for decades.

 

[Red Cat]

I have a dream that one day, one golden day, there will be a discussion board where people discuss things intelligently and NO thread becomes a bun fight or an ego vehicle.

Is it getting worse? Has it always been this way? Maybe I'm just getting old but I'm beginning to not be able to stand it anymore.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

The Armenian massacre is swept under the carpet by the Turks. The Nanjing massacre swept under the carpet by the Japanese. Several massacres in India were swept under the carpet by the British. But the Irish famine? It's been talked about and researched, etc for decades.

Has it indeed... thanks for the history lesson.
You see the problem is this...
You and many others keep calling it a famine.
It wasn't.
There was enough food in the country to feed four times the irish population. It was a starvation.
You are no doubt quoting the official history ?
Written in 1901 by the department of education as dictated to by the british government of the day...

Please....why dont you read something real?
I've posted plenty links including eyewitness reports.
I'm not going to repost them.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Is it getting worse? Has it always been this way? Maybe I'm just getting old but I'm beginning to not be able to stand it anymore.

It upsets you?

 

[tufty79]

You see the problem is this...
You and many others keep calling it a famine.

as have you, throughout the thread.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Is it getting worse? Has it always been this way? Maybe I'm just getting old but I'm beginning to not be able to stand it anymore.

Urban is miles less hostile than it used to be IMO.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

as have you, throughout the thread.

That it?

I also refer to it as the starvation.
My point (clearly obliterated in your mind by the rush to point out that I used the "famine" word )
My point is that history is written by the victor and that the country was awash with plenty food.
Those who died were let die.
Hence the starvation.

I suspect that this is not what people want to hear.

 

[Red Cat]

Urban is miles less hostile than it used to be IMO.

Apparently so. Obviously I'm just old.

 

[Idaho]

Apparently so. Obviously I'm just old.

I think that seeing *so* many of these threads where one person gets their obsession and beats everyone over the head with it, eventually tires you out. It's that unrelenting I-am-right-and-I-am-not-going-to-stop-until-everyone-agrees. It's made more tiresome because we all know everyone is never going to agree.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

I think that seeing *so* many of these threads where one person gets their obsession and beats everyone over the head with it, eventually tires you out. It's that unrelenting I-am-right-and-I-am-not-going-to-stop-until-everyone-agrees. It's made more tiresome because we all know everyone is never going to agree.

If you are referring to my posts then I would like to enlighten you a little...
I quoted many different sources and authors. Just because you're too bored/tired/pissed off/ ignorant to read them doesn't make their argument any less significant or truthful.

You're right on one point though...the english will never agree with the Irish on Irish history. Ever ask yourself why?
Surely you realise that the version of Irish history taught in the UK is skewed? Ever wonder if the empire was so good why the British are so disliked throughout the majority of the ex colonies?
Think about that...and when you manage to burst the little bubble you're living in and eventually see the damage the British empire did to so many indigenous peoples, then you can turn to those people and tell them that their history is "tiresome".

Now I'm going to have a cup of tea and a rather nice jam doughnut before I retire to bed.

 

[Idaho]

Do you know the difference between expressing an opinion/presenting an argument and just banging on and on hoping that somehow everyone is going to see the light and agree with you?

Why do you suppose that either I am unaware of British history, or that I am somehow responsible for it?

 

[weepiper]

Has it occurred to you bubbles that it is not 'the Irish' on one side and 'the British' on the other, on this thread?

 

[laptop]

Let's see whether I have this right.

Because the deaths associated with the potato blight (1840s - 1850s) were partly attributable to the British occupying colonial forces, the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in Ireland was less responsible than it would otherwise have been for the deaths of foundlings (1930s - 1960s).






I don't think I've ever before typed a sentence containing so many logical errors. And, believe me, I have tried. I have been paid to try.

 

[tim]

Urban is miles less hostile than it used to be IMO.

I know, such a sad decline. I'm beginning to not be able to stand not being insulted by Ernestolych and not being able to ridcule Drjazzzzzz anymore!!

When did we all start "liking" each other? Why can't we have a this shit button?

 

[Ld222]

Let's see whether I have this right.

Because the deaths associated with the potato blight (1840s - 1850s) were partly attributable to the British occupying colonial forces, the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in Ireland was less responsible than it would otherwise have been for the deaths of foundlings (1930s - 1960s).






I don't think I've ever before typed a sentence containing so many logical errors. And, believe me, I have tried. I have been paid to try.

This place 'Bon Secours, Mother and Baby Home' has been in almost continual use since 1846 (Black '46) right up to 1961, It is more than probable that it has numerous other mass graves onsite, just like every other workhouse in Ireland. People have been dying through starvation, neglect etc during this entire period, it seems there is hierarchy of victims being created to suit a particular agenda.

"The Home" had been built in 1841 as a workhouse under the Irish Poor Laws.[14] Like many other workhouses, it had been designed by Poor Law Commissioners' architect George Wilkinson to house about 800 people. This workhouse opened in 1846, often dubbed the worst year ("Black '46") of the Great Famine, as the Famine intensified across most of Ireland. After the Famine, the workhouse continued to house the poor and homeless for more than sixty years.

In 1916, during the uprising against British rule, British troops moved into the workhouse, evicting the occupants and making the building their barracks. In 1923, during the Irish Civil War, six anti-treaty IRA volunteers were imprisoned and executed at the workhouse by Irish Free State forces.,[15] followed by two others, weeks later. These were among the last executions of the Civil War.[16][17] The nuns who took over the building later erected a crucifix in memory of the volunteers

The order of Bon Secours Sisters, led by Mother Hortense McNamara, took over the Tuam Workhouse in 1925 and converted it into Bon Secours Mother and Baby Home, St Mary's Mother and Baby Home

Go on, cry about using wiki, it ll have to do for now, as it sets out the time frame the usage of this building better than anything else I can find at this time of morning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon_Secours_Mother_and_Baby_Home

 

[Ld222]

Blah de blah de fucking blah. Always with the "nothing is our fault, we're victims of circumstance" narrative.
Most people learn from their past, rather than wallowing in it. If ireland's elites conform to the will of foreign elites, then kill your elites. it's a better use of energy than constantly farming out blame, and bathing in historical mire.

Can the past be changed, then, by people beating their gums and *weeping about their victimhood? Nope. The only thing that can be changed is the future, so treat apologists as they deserve (but do try to make sure they're actually apologists beforehand).

*Sure and the Irish are the niggers of Europe, aren't they? I lost count of the amount of times I heard that lament as a kid.

Shocking how similar your attitudes are.

 

[Ld222]

It suits the 'powers that be' that Ireland remains a backwater,

Blah de blah de fucking blah. Always with the "nothing is our fault, we're victims of circumstance" narrative.
Most people learn from their past, rather than wallowing in it. If ireland's elites conform to the will of foreign elites, then kill your elites. it's a better use of energy than constantly farming out blame, and bathing in historical mire.

Even 'Marx' had similar idea's about the motives behind it.

Letter from Engels to Marx, Manchester, 23rd May 1856

The whole of the west, especially in the neighbourhood of Galway, is covered with ruined peasant houses, most of which have only been deserted since 1846. I never thought that famine could have such tangible reality. Whole villages are devastated.

Famine, emigration and clearances together have accomplished this. There are not even cattle to be seen in the fields.

By consistent oppression they have been artificially converted into an utterly impoverished nation and now, as everyone knows fulfil the function of supplying England, America, Australia, etc., with prostitutes, casual labourers, pimps, pickpockets, swindlers, beggars and other rabble.
http://snylterstaten.dk/english/letter-engels-marx-manchester-23rd-may-1856

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Let's see whether I have this right.

Because the deaths associated with the potato blight (1840s - 1850s) were partly attributable to the British occupying colonial forces, the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in Ireland was less responsible than it would otherwise have been for the deaths of foundlings (1930s - 1960s).






I don't think I've ever before typed a sentence containing so many logical errors. And, believe me, I have tried. I have been paid to try.

Nobody is saying the catholic church is not responsible for what has happened in mother and baby homes. ....individuals in those homes were damaged by other individuals. Individual and collective responsibility for the treatment of mothers and babies lies with the Catholic church. I hope that the Catholic Church is fully investigated and that people are prosecuted and jailed over what was done.

It's still amazing though, how people can't or wont see that the entire society was fucked up...men doffing their caps, terrified of the priesht. Nobody dared to talk about the catholic church in any real sense. They could ruin your life....the power they had was unbelievable. Nothing like that existed in England with the church of england. In ireland the church assumed an extremely oppressive role. A role that was encouraged and funded initially by the british government after the "famine" (starvation). Interestingly maynooth was completed while people all around kildare starved to death. Only one of the priests in maynooth died during the starvation. They had signed an agreement with the british government that promised them enough food on a daily basis. The rc church in ireland from 1840's on was bought by the British government and it set about doing it's job of controlling the irish in a way that was oppressive compared with the earlier irish church. The RC church continued to act the same way and fulfilled the same role after independence. DeValera enshrined their position in the irish constitution and the rest is history. They were more powerful than the state. They controlled society. The church pre starvation (famine) was a basic church and would have continued in this way if the country had not been devastated by hunger and the laws of inheritence had not been fucked about in order to facilitate the wealthy.......

The history of the rc church in ireland cannot be isolated from irish history or british history. They became as powerful and as brutal as any oppressive regime.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

The rc church in ireland from 1840's on was bought by the British government and it set about doing it's job of controlling the irish in a way that was oppressive compared with the earlier irish church.

Apologies if I've missed a previous post, but do you have a cite that gives more information on this.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Read Brian Jenkins writings on the British Government in Ireland.

He references government debates and quotes legal articles of the time.

He prints everything in an unbiased way because he quotes entire documents fully.

Worth looking at.

 

[bendeus]

Can anybody point me in the direction of that very thought-provoking thread covering the terrible discovery in Galway of scores of dead children interred in a septic tank by a Catholic order over three decades? I accidentally seem to have stumbled upon a thread about the Potato famine

 

[fucthest8]

It's impossible to consider Ireland without considering the blight/famine/starvation though, isn't it? Although it has, indeed, wrecked this thread.

 

[bendeus]

It's impossible to consider Ireland without considering the blight/famine/starvation though, isn't it? Although it has, indeed, wrecked this thread.

I dunno, really. Maybe someone could, like, start a thread about it?

 

[Lemon Eddy]

Read Brian Jenkins writings on the British Government in Ireland.

He references government debates and quotes legal articles of the time.

Could you point us towards a particular book, or ideally something on the Internet. I found one Brian Jenkins book on US Amazon that looked relevant but it was 85 dollars plus 40 dollars post

 

[Idaho]

Historical explanations are often illustrative, but it is still possible and desirable to hold people to account based on their own actions. Explaining everything in its meta context can sometimes feel very unjust and unsatisfying.

It's impossible to consider Ireland without considering the blight/famine/starvation though, isn't it? Although it has, indeed, wrecked this thread.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Historical explanations are often illustrative, but it is still possible and desirable to hold people to account based on their own actions. Explaining everything in its meta context can sometimes feel very unjust and unsatisfying.

Fair enough. ..and if I overstepped the mark by discussing irish history of the starvation and the rc church... then I apologise.

Of course the sexual, physical and emotional abuse carried out by the religious orders was and is dreadful and I'd sincerely hope they are held fully accountable.

 

[Ld222]

While there are many truths in what you say, and in what these historians have written, it falls into the usual historical trap: to create a continuous and rationalised post hoc narrative of a sequence of events. At the time these events no doubt felt very chaotic. Justification of each particular reaction, inaction or intervention was likely localised and not a part of any wider orchestration.

The famine was a terrible human tragedy made much worse by a remote and uncaring elite who were happy to either benefit or not lose. But to see that elite as a united cabal who planned and executed a systematic programme to bring about or maximise the impact of the famine is a stretch.

The Clearing of Estates in Ireland - Karx Marx

Here we have selective quote's from 'Karl Marx's, Kapital' As we can see, he had no doubt to what was happening, either did 'Dr Price' to which have quoted in bold, and I've particularly marked out in red his quotation about 'depopulation'.

I'll remind you 'Dr Price's' quotes are from the late 18th century almost '70 years' before 'the Great Hunger'!!

Sin é

Karl Marx. Capital Volume One

Expropriation of the Agricultural Population from the Land

The “glorious Revolution” brought into power, along with William of Orange, the landlord and capitalist appropriators of surplus-value. [12] They inaugurated the new era by practising on a colossal scale thefts of state lands, thefts that had been hitherto managed more modestly. These estates were given away, sold at a ridiculous figure, or even annexed to private estates by direct seizure. [13] All this happened without the slightest observation of legal etiquette. The Crown lands thus fraudulently appropriated, together with the robbery of the Church estates, as far as these had not been lost again during the republican revolution, form the basis of the today princely domains of the English oligarchy. [14] The bourgeois capitalists favoured the operation with the view, among others, to promoting free trade in land, to extending the domain of modern agriculture on the large farm-system, and to increasing their supply of the free agricultural proletarians ready to hand. Besides, the new landed aristocracy was the natural ally of the new bankocracy, of the newly-hatched haute finance, and of the large manufacturers, then depending on protective duties. The English bourgeoisie acted for its own interest quite as wisely as did the Swedish bourgeoisie who, reversing the process, hand in hand with their economic allies, the peasantry, helped the kings in the forcible resumption of the Crown lands from the oligarchy. This happened since 1604 under Charles X. and Charles XI.

The 18th century, however, did not yet recognise as fully as the 19th, the identity between national wealth and the poverty of the people. Hence the most vigorous polemic, in the economic literature of that time, on the “enclosure of commons.” From the mass of materials that lie before me, I give a few extracts that will throw a strong light on the circumstances of the time.

“When,” says Dr. Price, “this land gets into the hands of a few great farmers, the consequence must be that the little farmers” (earlier designated by him “a multitude of little proprietors and tenants, who maintain themselves and families by the produce of the ground they occupy by sheep kept on a common, by poultry, hogs, &c., and who therefore have little occasion to purchase any of the means of subsistence”) “will be converted into a body of men who earn their subsistence by working for others, and who will be under a necessity of going to market for all they want.... There will, perhaps, be more labour, because there will be more compulsion to it.... Towns and manufactures will increase, because more will be driven to them in quest of places and employment. [22] He sums up the effect of the enclosures thus: “Upon the whole, the circumstances of the lower ranks of men are altered in almost every respect for the worse. From little occupiers of land, they are reduced to the state of day-labourers and hirelings; and, at the same time, their subsistence in that state has become more difficult.” [23] In fact, usurpation of the common lands and the revolution in agriculture accompanying this, told so acutely on the agricultural labourers that, even according to Eden, between 1765 and 1780, their wages began to fall below the minimum, and to be supplemented by official poor-law relief. Their wages, he says, “were not more than enough for the absolute necessaries of life.”

Dr. Price. “Not is it a consequence that there must be depopulation, because men are not seen wasting their labour in the open field.... If, by converting the little farmers into a body of men who must work for others, more labour is produced, it is an advantage which the nation” (to which, of course, the “converted” ones do not belong) “should wish for ... the produce being greater when their joint labours are employed on one farm, there will be a surplus for manufactures, and by this means manufactures, one of the mines of the nation, will increase, in proportion to the quantity of corn produced.” [24]
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch27.htm

 

[Ld222]

A unified narrative is easier to believe in, though, and facilitates the writing and singing of songs of ancestral hatred.

How, 2 dimensional, prejudiced and 'Reactionary'!!! Scuttle along now, to your pretentious hipster little cave.

 

[Idaho]

I have never met nor even seen a photo of VP, but I am pretty damn certain that he wouldn't qualify as a hipster.

 

[Greebo]

I have never met nor even seen a photo of VP, but I am pretty damn certain that he wouldn't qualify as a hipster.

You're right there. He could be accused of many things, but hipster he ain't.