mass grave of 800 infants found at Galway 'fallen women' home

[bubblesmcgrath]

They weren't under Irish govt control, the nuns has these places run as private fiefs

State funded.
State inspected.
The Government cant deny involvement

 

[8den]

The 'Workhouses' became, laundries, asylums, orphanages, hospitals etc, is it beyond you to even 'click the link'!!, which states the history of these places.

The "history" is not the issue. Why do you think how this building was used 150 years ago is relevant to how the nuns treated babies in the 1960s?

 

[8den]

State funded.
State inspected.
The Government cant deny involvement

Absolutely not. But managed and run by the nuns.

If a civil servant allowed a child to die from preventable disease or malnutrition I'd like to see them prosecuted and the state to take responsibilty.

Shall we talk about how the religious orders are declining to pay compensation for their victims?

 

[laptop]

The Irish government has bowed to pressure to set up an official inquiry into deaths and abuse at homes for unmarried mothers after it found 4,000 infants had been buried in unmarked graves at institutions where morality rates ran as high as 50 per cent.

The inquiry was announced with anger growing over official inaction in the face of revelations that infants had been buried in a mass grave behind a convent-run mother and baby home in Tuam, County Galway where 796 children died over a 30-year period.
...
In addition to the home in Tuam, so-called “little angel”* plots will be investigated at Sean Ross Abbey, Tipperary, Bessborough, Co Cork, and Castlepollard, Co Westmeath.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...o-deaths-of-inferior-sub-species-infants.html

* barf

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

The "history" is not the issue. Why do you think how this building was used 150 years ago is relevant to how the nuns treated babies in the 1960s?

It relates to looking at the context of Irish society from 10 on. The tradition of people going to workhouses became people. .women going to mother and baby homes. Many of those mothers had been abused by family members. Society didnt want them just as society didn't want people in the workhouses.

Absolutely not. But managed and run by the nuns.

If a civil servant allowed a child to die from preventable disease or malnutrition I'd like to see them prosecuted and the state to take responsibilty.

Shall we talk about how the religious orders are declining to pay compensation for their victims?

Civil servants were informed of abuse...inspectors reports are there clearly stating extreme situations and abuse in industrial schools.
The DES has locked files with whistleblowers letters from 1934 on.
Why didnt they do something?
They were happy to let things be.
The government cant be allowed to absolve themselves

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

As for religious orders refusing to pay compensation?
They'll have to pay.
Fuckem

 

[8den]

http://humanrights.ie/law-culture-a...-property-and-the-catholic-church-in-ireland/

 

[8den]

As for religious orders refusing to pay compensation?
They'll have to pay.
Fuckem

Read the above link. And fuck off.

Getting high and mighty about govt failures to deal with the abuse ignores the culture of catholicism in Ireland at the time, and y'know the fact THAT THE NUNS and the PRIESTS WERE DOING THE ABUSE.

Getting high and mighty about the fact that the state didn't do more to prevent the abuse is like blaming the RSPCA for not doing more to stop puppy farms, instead of getting angry at puppy farms. And instead of puppies replace that with children. Idiot.

 

[8den]

Oh bubbles?

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/10/accountability-in-a-cold-climate/

Dr Frances Finnegan, author of Do Penance Or Perish: A Study of Magdalen Asylums in Ireland

You might recall a post from February of last year, following the publication of the McAleese Report, entitled A Question Of Sex, Class And Gender.

It was a transcript of a discussion on Tonight With Vincent Browne, involving Dr Finnegan – who gave evidence to the Inter-Departmental Committee, chaired by former Senator Martin McAleese, and which published the McAleese Report.

During the discussion, Dr Finnegan told of her struggle to get her book published.

It took her 21 years to write, she published the first edition of it herself in 2001 and then, in 2004, Oxford University Press published it and continues to do so.

Dr Finnegan was also the historical consultant for Steve Humphries’ documentary Sex In A Cold Climate, which was broadcast on Channel 4 in March, 1998.

RTÉ never broadcast the documentary until April 7 of last year – 15 years after it was originally aired.

After it was aired on Channel 4 in 1998, the Irish Times ran a piece by Dr Niall McElwee, who was then Course Director in Applied Social Studies at the Waterford Institute of Technology.

Dr McElwee is the co author of a 1997 book called Prostitution in Waterford City, part funded by the Good Shepherd Sisters.

He wrote:

The Documentary has been criticised for being unbalanced and ignoring the nuns’ side of the story – an extraordinary reaction to such a harrowing film. However, having worked with a huge variety of sources on the subject over a very long period, I can confirm that for more than a century, the women who ran these grim institutions have been given a very good press. A glance at any local newspaper item on the institutions, or any publication devoted to the Homes (or appealing for funds) will reveal that until fairly recently the nuns were regarded almost as saints – in contrast to the “evil sinners” they controlled. The purpose of the film, of course, was to capture the experience of the victims of the system – those people who have always been voiceless in the past. To the credit of the Documentary makers, the women found the courage to tell their stories, which were handled with such sensitivity and care.

 

[Ld222]

The "history" is not the issue. Why do you think how this building was used 150 years ago is relevant to how the nuns treated babies in the 1960s?

It was a continuing pattern, people where being mistreated in these places from there conception, 'the entire time'. It never ceased. The passage of time or who controlled the building does not take away from misery that was endured in this building the entire time they where opened!!

You really need to take time out and think about exactly what your trying to say.

 

[8den]

Ireland’s move away from the Catholic Church began before the reports were released. Between 1974 and 2008, regular Mass attendance dropped by some 50 percent. The situation today highlights a problem that is looming for the Vatican, especially in the West, as the global sex-abuse crisis, coupled with the increasingly conservative rule and top-down control that have prevailed since the 1970s, is contributing to the departure of populations the church once considered foundational. “Ireland is a prime example of what the church is facing, because they made this island into a concentration camp where they could control everything,” Mark Patrick Hederman, abbot of Glenstal Abbey, a Benedictine monastery in County Limerick, told me. “And the control was really all about sex. They told you if you masturbated, it meant you were impure and had allowed the devil to work on you. Generations of people were crucified with guilt complexes. Now the game is up.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/13/magazine/13Irish-t.html?pagewanted=2&hpw&_r=0

I think it's impossible to understate the enormous power of the church in Ireland even now. As it you simply must baptise your child if you want any options for their schooling. Even in sth dublin which basically west britain (a slur SF fling at anyone who disagrees with them, which to my mind means "fuck the fucking church).

A friend spent a 3 month plus term at a addiction center in Ireland which has 2:1 relationship between pray and y'know therapy.

 

[8den]

It was a continuing pattern, people where being mistreated in these places from there conception, 'the entire time'. It never ceased. The passage of time or who controlled the building does not take away from misery that was endured in this building the entire time they where opened!!

You really need to take time out and think about exactly what your trying to say.

I think I'm trying to say you're a apologist for cunts you fucking wanker.

You're basically trying to say "hey in the 1850s children were being abused in workhouses ergo what occured in places like tuam in the 1960s is some how mitigated.

The principal of my primary school a christian brother was moved from dublin to cork, before finally getting a decade long sentence on a sample count of 58 sexual assaults. He was moved by the hierarchy from my school to another when he was in danger of being exposed. He spent five years in cork getting free reign assaulting more children after getting found at in my school.

But hey lets blame the state for not having a good enough supervision of the brothers. Fuck personal responsibility, fuck the fact that they considered themselves above the law.

So fuck the fuck off.

 

[8den]

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/christian-brother-jailed-for-sex-attacks-on-boys-26158514.html

My school Principal.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Read the above link. And fuck off.

Getting high and mighty about govt failures to deal with the abuse ignores the culture of catholicism in Ireland at the time, and y'know the fact THAT THE NUNS and the PRIESTS WERE DOING THE ABUSE.

Getting high and mighty about the fact that the state didn't do more to prevent the abuse is like blaming the RSPCA for not doing more to stop puppy farms, instead of getting angry at puppy farms. And instead of puppies replace that with children. Idiot.

If you read all my posts on this thread you would see that I've no time for the religious orders who abused children and mistreated women and babies.

Society covered up for these shits. The state covered up for them too.

Now go fuck off yourself

Edit: I also stated that every abuser should be held responsible.

 

[Ld222]

Read the above link. And fuck off.

Getting high and mighty about govt failures to deal with the abuse ignores the culture of catholicism in Ireland at the time, and y'know the fact THAT THE NUNS and the PRIESTS WERE DOING THE ABUSE.

Getting high and mighty about the fact that the state didn't do more to prevent the abuse is like blaming the RSPCA for not doing more to stop puppy farms, instead of getting angry at puppy farms. And instead of puppies replace that with children. Idiot.

The Government, the Religious orders, the media are all intertwined for purposes of propping up the state. In Ireland, just like in England there all singing off the same hymn sheet. These are the same sort fuckers that handed the keys of the 'Broodmoor' to 'Jimmy Savile' that ran the laundries, the asylum, the orphanages, the same sort of fuckers that now manage 'Social Services', work in 'Social Security offices', etc, number crunchers that see the vast majority of humanity as a commodity.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/13/magazine/13Irish-t.html?pagewanted=2&hpw&_r=0

I think it's impossible to understate the enormous power of the church in Ireland even now. As it you simply must baptise your child if you want any options for their schooling. Even in sth dublin which basically west britain (a slur SF fling at anyone who disagrees with them, which to my mind means "fuck the fucking church).

A friend spent a 3 month plus term at a addiction center in Ireland which has 2:1 relationship between pray and y'know therapy.

Not sure what your point is?
There are plenty non denominational and multidenominational schools in Ireland. The current minister for education is making it his mission to remove religious from school management and to remove religious education from the curriculum.

 

[Ld222]

I think I'm trying to say you're a apologist for cunts you fucking wanker.

You're basically trying to say "hey in the 1850s children were being abused in workhouses ergo what occured in places like tuam in the 1960s is some how mitigated.

The principal of my primary school a christian brother was moved from dublin to cork, before finally getting a decade long sentence on a sample count of 58 sexual assaults. He was moved by the hierarchy from my school to another when he was in danger of being exposed. He spent five years in cork getting free reign assaulting more children after getting found at in my school.

But hey lets blame the state for not having a good enough supervision of the brothers. Fuck personal responsibility, fuck the fact that they considered themselves above the law.

So fuck the fuck off.

Where are you getting this out off?? There all, bastards no doubt!! Hell's to good for them.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

The principal of my primary school a christian brother was moved from dublin to cork, before finally getting a decade long sentence on a sample count of 58 sexual assaults. He was moved by the hierarchy from my school to another when he was in danger of being exposed. He spent five years in cork getting free reign assaulting more children after getting found at in my school.

But hey lets blame the state for not having a good enough supervision of the brothers. Fuck personal responsibility, fuck the fact that they considered themselves above the law.

So fuck the fuck off.

Should have beat the living shit out of him......that's what my dad did to a Christian brother and he was only 12 yeats of age.
People knew these shits were abusing. Why didnt they stop them? Parents knew. Whatvthe fuck was wrong with irish people that they didnt beat the shite out of the Christian brothers?????

 

[8den]

Should have beat the living shit out of him......that's what my dad did to a Christian brother and he was only 12 yeats of age.
People knew these shits were abusing. Why didnt they stop them? Parents knew. Whatvthe fuck was wrong with irish people that they didnt beat the shite out of the Christian brothers?????

Yeah so you've basically exposed the fact that that you are fucking clueless about the power of the church in Ireland at the time.

Fuckitty bye bye, piss the fuck off and dont the door kick you in the arse when piss off this thread cunty mac fuck shit.

And if

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Yeah so you've basically exposed the fact that that you are fucking clueless about the power of the church in Ireland at the time.

Fuckitty bye bye, piss the fuck off and dont the door kick you in the arse when piss off this thread cunty mac fuck shit.

And if

The church had shitloads of power. I'm fully aware that people bowed down and doffed their hats. Yup. I know. I grew up there. I know how the church fucked up people's lives..especially if you challenged them. A neighbour committed suicide recently because the inquiry into the abuse he'd been through at the hands of a local priest was fucking him about. The RC church are still powerful but they are crumbling. People are finding the strength in numbers and they are at long last challenging the church. People are being open and telling what was done to them openly.
If more people in the past had stood up to them they'd have had less power. If people stopped giving them money every sunday at mass they'd have had less power. They were handed that power on a plate. And looking back it's very clear that the church was put on a fucking pedastal by the irish people and the government.

You've actually hit the nail on the head haven't you? The Irish people were terrified to say boo to the church. The Irish people were oppressed by them...just as they'd been oppressed all through history. The church slipped in when the British government left. The church took over the role of oppressor and the Irish people let them.
Children told their parents that priests, nuns and Christian brothers were abusing them. Parents refused to do anything....in many cases the children were slapped for "saying awful things about the priest".

Whether you realise it or not we are on the same side here. I've no time for what the rc church did here. Every abuser deserves jail.
That Christian brother you mention in your previous post got 8 years. That's a disgrace too.

I'm not sure why you are being so aggressive towards me? But take your aggression out on someone else.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Whether we like it or not irish society needs to take a good hard look at itself and ask why we let the church do what it did. Why did families send their pregnant daughters away? Why did these girls, many of whom were under 17 end up in mother and baby homes?.

Why did it take us so long to question the power of the church?
It is only in the past 15 years that people have started to challenge the church and open up about abuse.

I spoke about my dad earlier. How he beat up a Christian brother who had a sick masochistic habit of beating and abusing young boys. My dad knew well the implications of his actions. He never went back there. As a kid of 12 he made his way to the tech college and asked to speak with the principal. He told him the story and asked for a place in that school. He never told his parents what had happened or how he'd changed school. About a month later the same Christian brother came to visit my dad's mother. He wanted to give him a scholarship place and get him back into their school. My dad told him to get the fuck out of their house and never come back.
I've heard him talk about the abuse that kids went through at the hands of the Christian brothers. I've heard my mum talk about the abuse she saw and experienced at the hands of the Presentation nuns. Her hands are still marked from the lashes she got for no reason.

Those responsible are still being treated differently. The state is still too slow to act. People are still too respectful of a church that has damaged so many.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Are you denying it was British PM William Pitts idea to build 'Maynooth Seminary'?

You're a history teacher. You should know that the realpolitik behind that was to minimise Irish Catholicism's interaction with Rome.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's alright when your blaming 'backward Ireland' for these 'ill's', but 'gawd' forbid we try and get to the bottom of the social and economic reasons to how these homes came about!!!

You're not trying to "get to the bottom" of anything, all you're doing is attributing cause to effect, while providing fuck-all evidence to support your claims of cause (linking to wiki pages doesn't count).

 

[ViolentPanda]

Did it stop in 1922 then?

Well, obviously the influence of the Brit state was so malignant that even after the Republic was formed, all those nuns, priests and members of the bourgeoisie found themselves still acting like murderous fuckwits, even though they didn't want to.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Civil war erupted. Leaving more people in abject poverty...and don't forget the government had sent over the black and tans, many if whom were ex cons let out for the purpose of squashing the irish rebels.

A minority of whom were ex-cons, all of whom were former soldiers in the British or Commonwealth armies, many of whom were also in abject poverty, and suffered the effects of economic conscription.

They killed plenty innocents too. Life was utterly shit....and remained so for a long time.
You need to read a decent history of Ireland before saying that things should have been better.
Nobody had anything.
Infant mortality rates were much higher than in the uk....right up to the 60's.

It wasn't going to suddenly improve post 1922... mostly because the state had been left with nothing....

Sorry, that's just excuse-making that's invalidated by examples of other states "left with nothing" in that era (Germany, Spain, Belgium for example) that didn't experience that sort of mortality. yes, the state of the Irish state was an issue, but it was the same throughout a lot of Europe.
Then again, none of them were bound in such a close relationship with the Church as Ireland was.

 

[ViolentPanda]

"I have always felt a certain horror of political economists since I heard one of them say he feared the famine of 1848 in Ireland would not kill more than a million people, and that would scarcely be enough to do any good. (Benjamin Jowett, referring to Nassau Senior, economic adviser, 1848)"

Nothing was done.
Absolutely nothing.
The schools in uk should teach the history of British rule .... the truth that is.

Or, at least, your truth - the truth where everything is always someone else's fault.

 

[ViolentPanda]

"We are worked harder and worse treated than the slaves in the colonies. I understand that they are taken care of by their masters when they are sick or old. When we are sick, we must die on the road, if the neighbors do not help us. When we are old, we must go out to beg, if the young ones cannot help us, and that will soon happen with us all; we are getting worse and worse every day, and the landlords are kicking us out of every little holding we have. God knows what will happen to this country! (James McMahon, a labourer from County Clare, 1834)."


Tell that to the 1,500,000 who starved to death while food left Ireland for the UK.
Tell that to the 2,000,000 who left ireland in search of a better life and a third died en route.
The British government knew exactly what they were doing.

The knew what they were doing, but while "exactly" lends volume to your claim, it doesn't lend accuracy. Ireland wasn't micro-managed, so "exact" knowledge would have been impossible.
Did the British state know what was happening, and do nothing practical to stop it - yes.
Did they know "exactly" what was happening - no.
They saw something happening, and took advantage of it, and sadly, given the philosophy of the time, those who could not help themselves were somehow seen as unworthy of aid (a philosophy being slowly reintroduced in Britain).

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Or, at least, your truth - the truth where everything is always someone else's fault.

My truth?
I'm not an apologist for anyone.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

The knew what they were doing, but while "exactly" lends volume to your claim, it doesn't lend accuracy. Ireland wasn't micro-managed, so "exact" knowledge would have been impossible.
Did the British state know what was happening, and do nothing practical to stop it - yes.
Did they know "exactly" what was happening - no.
They saw something happening, and took advantage of it, and sadly, given the philosophy of the time, those who could not help themselves were somehow seen as unworthy of aid (a philosophy being slowly reintroduced in Britain).

It was opportunistic mass murder.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

The landowners knew. The British government knew.

For fucks sake...the world knew.
The British navy were ordered not to allow ships through from Turkey to Ireland that were carrying food for the starving. The american indians sent ships of food and only one was allowed through.

It is a lie to state the British government did not know the full extent of the famine. The entire western world knew.