LSE Tories: "We'll only campaign against far left fascists"

[ViolentPanda]

What point? I've yet to see any evidence that Nazism held a coherent economic philosophy, besides building autobahns and starting wars to fuel a war economy...

Try thinking of it in terms of the Nazis seeing war as a key to normalising their economy, as well as assisting them in "normalising" (i.e. homogenising) their society.

...let alone that Nazism was inherently "right-wing" (or "left-wing" for that matter). They were nationalists and nose-measurers obsessed with racial pedigree, not economic theorists.

And yet they had some very good economists helping them chart their path through the economic waters of the 1930s. Surely nationalists obsessed with nose-measuring wouldn't have given the likes of Schact a hearing, much less followed his advice quite so closely?

 

[moon23]

Very well put, and if there was a thread about the role of personality cults and tribalism in politics, a comparison with the Nazi Party could be valid. Jung had an interesting essay on the psychology of Nazism. That's probably the best sphere in which to debate those madmen.

If, however, we're debating along tradtional Right/Left lines, then comparisons are near-invariably smears. As has been said, the Conservative was probably trying to turn around the tired "Nazis are right-wing" smear-by-association, but maybe he was also bringing in no-platform, as you say, he didn't put his point over very well at all, whatever it was.

Yes it's waaaay off topic granted.

 

[butchersapron]

You're missing my point: it doesn't matter whether fascism developed from "right-wing" politics. Maybe it did. By that logic communism developed from "right-wing" politics as well. All that says is that "right-wing politics, in the wrong circumstances, can lead to the breakdown of civil society. In those circumstances a band of insane volkists may take power. Or they may not, should none be available, and the national culture not be predisposed to their line.

That's distinct from saying that Nazism is inherently right-wing, and speaks of some dark heart in the political Right. (Whatever that is: as I've frequently said, I find the Left/Right framework of limited usefulness.)

What if we do agree that Nazism is right-wing? Someone just says "Well Stalin was just as bad," and we begin the even more tedious debate about whether the Soviet Union was left-wing or not.

As for my alledged motive of tribal loyalty to right-wing politics, Burkean conservatism has precisely nothing to do with worshippers of Nordic supermen, so therein lies oddness.

There's no maybe about it - without an understanding and acceptance that it did i'm not going to read the rest of your attempt to claim to not be in the same traditon.

 

[frogwoman]

I think you have to take a look at what exactly nazism, and fascism in general, is trying to achieve. if you view nazism as a different ideology to fascism and focus on the more overtly weird and "racial" elements of its philosophy you're going to view it in a more apolitical way. fascism in the classical sense, despite using the trappings of trade unionism and adopting some of the social policies of the left for its own ends is right wing by definition. have a think about why that is.

 

[Blagsta]

Who supported fascism and why is important here. You need to look at the context of the threat of working class revolution in Europe at the time.

 

[bluestreak]

Aye, that's a very good point. Nazism was also about keeping out Communism, and therefore required co-opting some of the more popular Communist policies in order to pull voters away from Communist parties.

 

[butchersapron]

Is this now under some doubt - fascism and nazism is right wing. That's what it fucking is.

The wrecking ball of post-modernism does its silent work.

 

[Blagsta]

I hate to confuse things further but what we mean by 'left' or 'right' wing is also a matter of semantics, for instance it was only since the Mid-Nineteenth centaury that it begin to be associated with communism and socialism. The Political compass is a vast improvement that if adopted more widely would raise the level of general understanding.

The original article is not very well done as common with student papers, for instance they refer to "The Conservatives NO2ID campaign". NO2ID is an independent organization, it's not the Conservatives campaign at all. Although Conservatives do support it.

You have to remember that some people on the Libertarian right associate planned economies with authoritarian governments and fascism. They make the error of thinking a free market will always create a free society, likewise those on the left fail to accept that having planned economy can cause governments to start planning and interfering in people’s private life’s (that can again result in fascism/totalitarianism).

History actually gives quite a few examples of this. Although in the sense that we associate right wing as meaning socially authoritarian obviously fascism is right wing. I don't think it's very helpful personally to think of fascism as either being a product of the left or the right.

Finally there is the confusion between fascism and totalitarianism. Fascism is a specifically tied to Italy, Spain and its even questionable the extent to which Nazism is the same type of fascism. People on the ‘right’ often think Fascism and Soviet Totalitarianism are interchangeable notions.

Basically both free market economies and planned economies can be very naughty 

This is ahistorical nonsense mate.

 

[butchersapron]

These people take their own strong belief-free life and project it backwards. Sorry, but people were nazis because they wer right wing, people were communists because they were left wing - they killed each other night after night because of that fact - not because they had some vague notions a la some of the above rubbish.

 

[Azrael]

There's no maybe about it - without an understanding and acceptance that it did i'm not going to read the rest of your attempt to claim to not be in the same traditon.

And this is precisely why Godwin's Law would be a good idea.

To suggest that English Burkean conservatism is "in the same tradition" as Nazism is nonsensical. What are the common elements of this alleged "tradition"? Constitutional government vs. führerprinzip. Equality before the law vs. Nürnberger Gesetze. The common element is that both feature variations on capitalism and nationalism, nothing more.

It's economic reductivism to suggest that capitalism is the defining feature of the Nazi Party; and if you're not suggesting that, then the right-wing label makes little sense. The key elements to Hitlerism – a twisted take on volk, national humiliation, poorly-designed state -- are exterior to economics. Economic calamity exacerbated pre-existing defects; it didn't create them.

"Post-modernism" makes meaning relative: defining the Nazi Party as "right-wing" fits that creed nicely.

 

[Azrael]

Sorry, but people were nazis because they wer right wing, people were communists because they were left wing [...]

So Herr Meyer wakes up one morning, watches the brownshirts march past, and says, "I support laissez faire capitalism, so hand me a swastika and show me the road to Poland"?

Hmmm, must investigate further.

 

[butchersapron]

Now you get the point, not 'i must grab a hodge podge of ideas and make some mess of them, oh i'm accidentally a fascist' - right wing politics made people think a certain way and made the facists. The society you defend, the tradition you defend, made fascism.

 

[Azrael]

Now you get the point ...

Well I've got that you think that from the start, but I don't see how these "right-wing ideas" (which are, beyond support for capitalism?) make people predisposed to dictatorship, martial rallies and genocide. And what about the socialist element that existed within Nazism before the Knight of the Long Knives. Were they right-wing as well?

How do these self-same "right-wing ideas" make other people support limited government and equality before the law?

Such radically different societies allegedly coming from the same well suggests that economic reductivism is bunk, and something beyond a belief in economic free exchange lies behind support for Nazism.

 

[butchersapron]

Well I've got that you think that from the start, but I don't see how these "right-wing ideas" (which are, beyond support for capitalism?) make people predisposed to dictatorship, martial rallies and genocide. And what about the socialist element that existed within Nazism before the Knight of the Long Knives. Were they right-wing as well?

How do these self-same "right-wing ideas" make other people support limited government and equality before the law?

Such radically different societies suggest that economic reductivism is bunk and something beyond a belief in economic free exchange lies behind support for Nazism.

Yes they were.

Wow, right wing-ideas make things (like azrael) other than fascists!

Anything else?

 

[Azrael]

So, economics aside, what do you define as "right-wing ideas"?

I suspect this thread is heading fast into "define your terms" territory.

 

[butchersapron]

Why aside from economics? What an odd stipulation.

 

[Azrael]

Well intangibles like volk and a sense of national humiliation aren't rooted in economics.

If you want to keep it confined to economics, are you suggesting that belief in capitalism was a prerequisite to Nazi Party membership; and if so, how does the same root cause inspire both John Stuart Mill and Reinhard Heydrich?

 

[butchersapron]

a) you said right wing , not fascist and b) not i don't want to keep it confined to economics, the opposite - you tried to separate economics off, so ask yourself your own question.

 

[Azrael]

b) not i don't want to keep it confined to economics, the opposite [...]

What things pertinent to Nazism do you define as "right-wing", then?

 

[butchersapron]

What things pertinent to Nazism do you define as "right-wing", then?

Exhibit a) being a nazi

 

[butchersapron]

Sorry, you've already demonstrated your ignorance of the nazi economic programs earlier. (they didn't exist apparently) It's hard to take you seriously now mr azrael. You're totally bluffing here and i'm not that interested.

 

[Azrael]

 

[Azrael]

Sorry, you've already demonstrated your ignorance of the nazi economic programs earlier. (they didn't exist apparently) It's hard to take you seriously now mr azrael. You're totally bluffing here and i'm not that interested.

Old tactic, not biting. I'll not bother to defend myself from something I never said about Nazi economics, but that doesn't affect "right-wing" aspects of Nazism outside economics.

 

[butchersapron]

What?

What point? I've yet to see any evidence that Nazism held a coherent economic philosophy...

 

[Azrael]

Oh, and you haven't even used your own tactic properly, since by no stretch of the imagination have I attempted to bluff my way out of ... erm, what exactly?

 

[butchersapron]

The claim that the nazis were not right wing.

 

[Azrael]

What?

Hitler left detailed economics out of Mein Kampf, being a derranged dreamer obsessed with volk and restoring national honour. Farming economic policy out to Hjalmar Schacht isn't the same thing as Nazism being rooted in economics; it's a pragmatic necessity of government. And the war-economy Germany ended up with is only coherent until such time as you run out of wars to fight, which given the size of Europe, wouldn't be very long.

Even if Nazism had a fully coherent economic theory, to call it "right-wing" you'd have to show that said theory was a fundamental part of the creed.

So, what made the Nazis right-wing?

 

[butchersapron]

What the fuck has Mein Kampf got to do with anything? Who said anything about nazism being rooted in economics?

You really don't know anything about this do you?

 

[Azrael]

What the fuck has Mein Kampf got to do with anything?

Close as Nazism had to a Bible, so rather a lot, I'd have thought.

Who said anything about nazism being rooted in economics?

You really don't know anything about this do you?

So yet again, if it isn't, how is Nazism "right-wing", as you apparently claim? What are these crucial facts I need to read up on?

Do you actually have an answer, or are you just using accusations of ignorance to paper over its absence?

 

[butchersapron]

Close as Nazism had to a Bible, so rather a lot, I'd have thought.

So yet again, if it isn't, how is Nazism "right-wing", as you apparently claim? What are these crucial facts I need to read up on?

Do you actually have an answer, or are you just using accusations of ignorance to paper over its absence?

Again, so what?

How is nazism right wing? Do i actually have an answer?

Do i have to actually answer?

HOW IS NAZISM RIGHT WING

Anyone know?