Loughborough Junction public space improvements - consultation begins

[bimble]

How does that work? Isn't their pricing done centrally? Do individual drivers get to turn down jobs if they don't like them?

It was an enlightening chat - yes Addison Lee is apparently quite a decent employer in that you can turn down jobs if you don't want them.
But more generally, seems cab drivers, like milk delivery drivers, have decisions to make when running on small margins where the cost of extra fuel & time makes a real difference.

 

[irf520]

It was an enlightening chat - yes Addison Lee is apparently quite a decent employer in that you can turn down jobs if you don't want them. But more generally, seems cab drivers like milk delivery drivers have decisions to make when running on small margins.

Clearly then the solution is to let "natural market forces" kill off these crappy low margin businesses and replace them with nice, resilient high margin businesses. Like maybe a little Waitrose?

 

[bimble]

Clearly then the solution is to let "natural market forces" kill off these crappy low margin businesses and replace them with nice, resilient high margin businesses. Like maybe a little Waitrose?

Yes. So it's wine bars all the way. That's the only obvious way to make the price per square foot pay, per glass?

Make Profits with Wine Saver PRO

 

[irf520]

Yes. So it's wine bars all the way. That's the only obvious way to make the price per square foot pay, if you look at per bottle and per glass?

But those wine bars are going to have trouble shifting their stock at their vastly inflated prices if the pool of potential customers consists mainly of cash-strapped council tenants ... so the logical conclusion is ...

 

[bimble]

But those wine bars are going to have trouble shifting their stock at their vastly inflated prices if the pool of potential customers consists mainly of cash-strapped council tenants ... so the logical conclusion is ...

Well.. exactly. Is why i object to Lambeth Council and or Network Rail trying to artificially force these changes.

 

[prunus]

Well.. exactly. Is why i don't understand why Lambeth Council is trying to artificially force these Brewtique changes.

Is there any evidence, bar one mockup photo that was probably the brainchild of a 'creative' at a PR agency, that they are?

 

[bimble]

Is there any evidence, bar one mockup photo that was probably the brainchild of a 'creative' at a PR agency, that they are?

If you have time, I've got a really interesting thing in PDF which would require your messaging / conversationing me. It's an academic paper by an expert on the G word, lecturer in urban studies at Birkbeck - on the relationship between Lambeth Council and the developers who have built the thing called Oval Quarter over at Myatts Fields.

It helped me to understand the symbiotic relationship between a cash-strapped council and the the private developers and to see why they can't help but share a desire to drive up the value of every square foot.

 

[prunus]

If you have time, I've got a really interesting thing in PDF which would require your messaging / conversationing me. It's an academic paper on the relationship between Lambeth Council and the developers who have built the thing called Oval Quarter over at Myatts Field. It helped me to understand the symbiotic relationship between a cash-strapped Lambeth council and the the private developers and to see why they can't help but share a desire to drive up the value of every square foot.

Sounds interesting. Very happy to have pm on it if you like, although why the cloak-and-dagger?

 

[critical1]

Is there any evidence, bar one mockup photo that was probably the brainchild of a 'creative' at a PR agency, that they are?

Nahh probably not.. after all Atlantic road arches rents aren't going up are they!

 

[bimble]

Sounds interesting. Very happy to have pm on it if you like, although why the cloak-and-dagger?

No cloaks no daggerin, just a fat PDF Have attempted to send it to you.

 

[teuchter]

It was an enlightening chat - yes Addison Lee is apparently quite a decent employer in that you can turn down jobs if you don't want them.
But more generally, seems cab drivers, like milk delivery drivers, have decisions to make when running on small margins where the cost of extra fuel & time makes a real difference.

So she's free to turn down the job if her perception is that it's such an unwieldy journey to make that she isn't paid enough for it. That doesn't tell us very much about the reality though. I really don't see that if, say you were getting a cab from central London at 2am to somewhere around Flaxman Rd, the journey now is going to be much longer than before. The difference in journey times, if anything, is going to be pretty minor compared to the variation in journey time caused by unpredictable delays.

The test of course is whether, if you call a cab via Addison Lee, there are so few drivers willing to take that job, that you can't get a cab or have to wait for longer than you usually would. I can't test that because I don't want to take a cab right now. Looking on the AL website though, the price for a taxi from central London to Gordon Grove (just N of the closures) is exactly the same as the price to Eastlake Rd (just S of the closures).

 

[bimble]

So she's free to turn down the job if her perception is that it's such an unwieldy journey to make that she isn't paid enough for it.

Yep. Which when you apply same logic to the people who deliver milk & newspapers etc to local shops becomes a problem for the local shops, right?

 

[prunus]

No cloaks no daggerin, just a fat PDF Have attempted to send it to you.

Thanks Won't be able to read immediately (it's not short) but abstract looks promising. Will report back...

 

[teuchter]

Yep. Which when you apply same logic to the people who deliver milk & newspapers etc to local shops becomes a problem for the local shops, right?

Yes. But it's not necessarily logic - it's perception, which isn't the same thing as reality. What are the most efficient routes may have changed of course but people and systems adapt. There will inevitably be some problems when things get changed but that doesn't mean that a new way of doing things can't be found.

Ultimately delivery companies want to keep their customers. It may be that they change their routines. They might start using a slightly smaller vehicle, or they might start doing a larger delivery every second day, or whatever. Once things have adapted, the system won't necessarily function worse than before. Maybe having fewer deliveries per week is good for the people who live along the routes those vehicles travel. Smaller vehicles may be better too. Some things might change for the worse, some better. As I have said many times before, I think the disruption of changes is often very much overestimated, and people tend to panic a bit when they are faced with having to change the way they do things. Then they find solutions and things settle down.

I wouldn't want to deny that these changes may have caused a lot of hassle for some businesses and their delivery arrangements. But the thing is, it's pretty much impossible to judge how severe those effects really are based on some secondhand comments. If shopkeepers have been resolutely against the changes (on account of fears that people like me say are probably unjustified) then they are probably going to overstate or play up the difficulties they have. If after some negotiation with the delivery companies it turns out that with a few changes things can run fine, and they aren't going to put up their prices after all, then this is not going to get reported.

Of course it could also be that I'm totally underestimating the difficulties because I amn't a shopkeeper and have no idea about all sorts of logistical practicalities that can't be resolved.

If I was in charge of running this experiment (and paid enough to do so properly) then I would certainly want to go and talk to these businesses and get as good an understanding as possible about the reality of the situation. I would want to look in some detail at the problems they complain about and do a bit of research to make sure they stack up and are reasonable. Do Lambeth have the resources or competency to do this properly? Probably not, sadly. So we are left trying to make a guess about what the reality of the situation is.

I am a sceptic by nature. Where people have talked about certain specific effects of this scheme, that are easy for me to check out, I've done so. I've gone to look at the claimed massive increase in traffic in side streets for example, and my observation has been that it doesn't really exist. I note that the LJAG statement posted above says similar. So, my observation is that there seems to be a fair bit of exaggeration about the negative impacts of this thing. I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect there may be an element of that in comments that are reported here, second hand. Especially when reported by posters who've shown earlier in the thread a fondness for conspiracy theory.

 

[critical1]

Yes. But it's not necessarily logic - it's perception, which isn't the same thing as reality. What are the most efficient routes may have changed of course but people and systems adapt.....

I am a sceptic by nature. Where people have talked about certain specific effects of this scheme, that are easy for me to check out, I've done so. I've gone to look at the claimed massive increase in traffic in side streets for example, and my observation has been that it doesn't really exist. I note that the LJAG statement posted above says similar............

Hmm Reality vs Fantasy...

​

 

[bimble]

people and systems adapt. There will inevitably be some problems when things get changed but that doesn't mean that a new way of doing things can't be found

Yes, sure, a new way will be found. Life adapts and I'm a big fan of Darwin. Still, the question here (i think) is about what changes are being forced upon LJ and if the celestial omelette you're waiting for justifies the immediate broken eggs.

 

[teuchter]

Hmm Reality vs Fantasy...

​

For 9 minutes, on some day since the traffic changes were implemented, two drivers failed to resolve a situation where one of them needed to reverse a bit so that others could get by.

This tells us more about how some people can behave when they get behind a steering wheel, than it does about the road closures.

Every single time I've gone to look at that road since, I have failed to see stand-offs, gridlock or even busy traffic.

 

[critical1]

For 9 minutes, on some day since the traffic changes were implemented, two drivers failed to resolve a situation where one of them needed to reverse a bit so that others could get by.

This tells us more about how some people can behave when they get behind a steering wheel, than it does about the road closures.

Every single time I've gone to look at that road since, I have failed to see stand-offs, gridlock or even busy traffic.

And have you been there every single day?

 

[irf520]

I've been along St James's Crescent 3 times recently between 4pm and 6pm on a weekday. You see clusters of 6 or 7 cars at a time going down St James's Crescent every couple of minutes or so. I reckon maybe 25% of the original Loughborough Rd traffic now goes along Barrington Rd/St James's Crescent. The rest is dispersed between various routes:

• Gresham Rd
• Denmark Rd
• Railton Rd/Atlantic Rd
• Brixton centre
• Denmark Hill
• Loughborough Rd ignoring the signs

 

[teuchter]

Morning rush hour. All these photos taken between 0800 and 0825.


CHL at station



CHL by station



Bottom of Hinton Rd



CHL looking east



CHL towards Brixton, from junction with Loughborough Rd



Top end of Loughborough Rd where it meets CHL (nb CCTV car)



Looking N along Loughborough Rd



St James Crescent looking west

 

[teuchter]

Angell Rd looking N



Angell Rd on the right, St James Crescent on the left



Looking W along St James Crescent



St James Crescent from junction with Fyfield Rd



Fyfield Rd looking N



St James Crescent, looking N/E



This is the estate cut-through which bypasses the Barrington Rd closure. I did see a couple of vehicles use it.



Barrington Rd at junction with St James Crescent, looking towards CHL junction



Barrington Rd, junction with CHL

 

[teuchter]

CHL looking towards Brixton



CHL/Gresham rd junction



CHL/Barrington Rd Junction




CHL/Gresham Rd Junction. Quite a few cars turning right onto Gresham Rd here. Don't know if any more than pre-closures.



Looking N up Gresham Rd



CHL looking E, back towards LJ



CHL, to the east of LJ, looking towards Camberwell.

 

[teuchter]

I've been along St James's Crescent 3 times recently between 4pm and 6pm on a weekday. You see clusters of 6 or 7 cars at a time going down St James's Crescent every couple of minutes or so.

Not what I saw this morning - looking from my photo times I spent 8 minutes walking along St James Crescent and Barrington Rd. There were a few cars, mostly coming individually with gaps in between. Definitely not in clusters of 6 or 7. It actually didn't seem any busier than the occasions when I've been there at lunchtime over the last few weeks.

I reckon maybe 25% of the original Loughborough Rd traffic now goes along Barrington Rd/St James's Crescent.

I reckon this is nonsense. No way was that amount of traffic using it this morning (or the other day when I did the evening rush hour photos). If there had been that much traffic, it wouldn't have been possible for me to photograph long stretches of the road with no cars at all.

 

[CH1]

I reckon this is nonsense. No way was that amount of traffic using it this morning (or the other day when I did the evening rush hour photos). If there had been that much traffic, it wouldn't have been possible for me to photograph long stretches of the road with no cars at all.

I reckon you are supporting turning Barrington Road/Gresham Road/Coldharbour Lane/Moorlands Road 5 way junction into a death trap because of your wish to civilise us plebs by converting Loughborough Road into a park.

I warn you tecyhter: you may think you are re-running The Good Life with Tom and Margot etc.
But there is a nasty side to all that - Comrade Bala is currently on trial at Southwark Crown Court.
Suggest you buy the Independent and read the juicy details - or even put in an appearance at Soutbwark yourself.

That is the future - for an idealist who cannot come to terms with the real world.
Nietsche's Superman ended up in an asylum, but Comrade Bala is up in court.

 

[bimble]

Got to say LJ looks almost pretty in teuchter's pictures, lovely light.

 

[teuchter]

I reckon you are supporting turning Barrington Road/Gresham Road/Coldharbour Lane/Moorlands Road 5 way junction into a death trap because of your wish to civilise us plebs by converting Loughborough Road into a park.

I warn you tecyhter: you may think you are re-running The Good Life with Tom and Margot etc.
But there is a nasty side to all that - Comrade Bala is currently on trial at Southwark Crown Court.
Suggest you buy the Independent and read the juicy details - or even put in an appearance at Soutbwark yourself.

That is the future - for an idealist who cannot come to terms with the real world.
Nietsche's Superman ended up in an asylum, but Comrade Bala is up in court.

I'm a cult leader who wants to kill people. Because I am pointing out (by providing photographic evidence) that the traffic mayhem, that some claim has resulted from this trial, doesn't actually exist.

Amazing.

 

[LadyV]

Not what I saw this morning - looking from my photo times I spent 8 minutes walking along St James Crescent and Barrington Rd. There were a few cars, mostly coming individually with gaps in between. Definitely not in clusters of 6 or 7. It actually didn't seem any busier than the occasions when I've been there at lunchtime over the last few weeks.

I reckon this is nonsense. No way was that amount of traffic using it this morning (or the other day when I did the evening rush hour photos). If there had been that much traffic, it wouldn't have been possible for me to photograph long stretches of the road with no cars at all.

The traffic levels are odd at the moment and seem to vary day to day, my schedule has been different this week and I've been walking to Brixton at different times between 7.45am and 8.30am along CHL and I have seen much more traffic than in your pictures, but then Fridays are always quieter as it's a popular work at home day. Traffic numbers do seem to be quite inconsistent, whether that is people still investigating new routes or less cars on the road full stop, I don't know.

What I can say is that Brixton Road, along the main stretch definitely seems to be busier and that is very unpleasant, much like CHL was when the temporary traffic lights were still in. And the junction of Gresham Road and Brixton Road is taking forever. I beat 5 buses on foot on Wednesday from Western Road to the tube station, I don't think the buses had even got round the corner. That is a problem, the cars have different options as to routes taken, buses don't and if you're going beyond the tube station, that stretch can add a good 20 minutes to your journey in the morning, more if you're on the 35 as that has to get all the way round the one way.

In some ways, I would say that the one group of people that have been affected by the closures the most is bus users, bus journeys going through Brixton are taking much longer, especially going towards Brixton, the reverse journey is not so bad. I often used to take the bus to Brixton as I'm a lazy so and so but now unless I've got lots of bags or it's chucking it down, I walk, it just takes too long.

More anecdata for the pot I guess

 

[teuchter]

The traffic levels are odd at the moment and seem to vary day to day, my schedule has been different this week and I've been walking to Brixton at different times between 7.45am and 8.30am along CHL and I have seen much more traffic than in your pictures, but then Fridays are always quieter as it's a popular work at home day. Traffic numbers do seem to be quite inconsistent, whether that is people still investigating new routes or less cars on the road full stop, I don't know.

What I can say is that Brixton Road, along the main stretch definitely seems to be busier and that is very unpleasant, much like CHL was when the temporary traffic lights were still in. And the junction of Gresham Road and Brixton Road is taking forever. I beat 5 buses on foot on Wednesday from Western Road to the tube station, I don't think the buses had even got round the corner. That is a problem, the cars have different options as to routes taken, buses don't and if you're going beyond the tube station, that stretch can add a good 20 minutes to your journey in the morning, more if you're on the 35 as that has to get all the way round the one way.

In some ways, I would say that the one group of people that have been affected by the closures the most is bus users, bus journeys going through Brixton are taking much longer, especially going towards Brixton, the reverse journey is not so bad. I often used to take the bus to Brixton as I'm a lazy so and so but now unless I've got lots of bags or it's chucking it down, I walk, it just takes too long.

More anecdata for the pot I guess

The further away from LJ you get the harder it is to know whether delays are being caused by this or other issues. There are major roadworks going on at the other end of Brixton Rd, at Oval, and there's also major work going on at the junction at Stockwell (which is roughly the same distance from the Gresham Rd / Brixton Rd junction as LJ is).

All this, of course is why it's important to look at things over a longer rather than shorter period.

 

[teuchter]

Hasn't it always been the case that buses take ages to get from Gresham Rd to the tube station? This is why I hardly ever bother getting the bus to Brixton. It's generally quicker to walk and it's been like that for at least the last 5 years.

Also I can't see that traffic going from Gresham Rd towards Brixton is traffic that previously would have used another route. Traffic going along Gresham Rd and then turning right onto Brixton Rd towards Oval, yes, but not turning left.

Unless an increase in right-turning traffic is clogging the junction up generally.

 

[snowy_again]

The further away from LJ you get the harder it is to know whether delays are being caused by this or other issues. There are major roadworks going on at the other end of Brixton Rd, at Oval, and there's also major work going on at the junction at Stockwell (which is roughly the same distance from the Gresham Rd / Brixton Rd junction as LJ is).

It's polite chaos in Stockwell at the moment due to the roundabout works. Colleagues who previously drove to work through that junction have temporarily given up and are taking the bus.