London: the unlockening/relockening

[andysays]

Make it clear to people they shouldn't be driving anywhere (or state a definitive distance limit) for leisure purposes, just as it is made clear to people that they shouldn't be using public transport to travel anywhere for leisure purposes.

So if you're lucky enough to live somewhere close to Epping Forest, you can enjoy it almost empty, but if you live ten miles away in already overcrowded Tottenham, you can only use your local park, along with 1000s of other local residents.

Sounds fair enough...

 

[klang]

the actual size of either Epping Forest or my local park.

2400 hectare v 5 hectare

 

[andysays]

2400 hectare v 5 hactare

So Epping Forest is roughly 500 times bigger, that sounds about right.

But woe betide anyone from Tottenham or Hackney who has the cheek to get in their car and drive there for a walk...

 

[Teaboy]

So if you're lucky enough to live somewhere close to Epping Forest, you can enjoy it almost empty, but if you live ten miles away in already overcrowded Tottenham, you can only use your local park, along with 1000s of other local residents.

Sounds fair enough...

This is my quandary. Its parks and the riverside for me but we've had large numbers coming from neighbouring boroughs and its made it pretty tricky to go out in the daytime. You'd certainly need wellies or boots because the paths were seriously overcrowded, it made it more stressful than a walk should be.

On the other hand it is nice where we are and not very green in neighbouring boroughs. Its a tricky balance but the best I could do was tolerate it whilst out and then moan about it when we got home.

Its going to be bad again when things open up and the weather starts to get nicer. We already had some clowns try and attempt a mass bring your own musical instrument party on one of the local greens last Saturday. OB were all over that but still...

 

[andysays]

This is my quandary. Its parks and the riverside for me but we've had large numbers coming from neighbouring boroughs and its made it pretty tricky to go out in the daytime. You'd certainly need wellies or boots because the paths were seriously overcrowded, it made it more stressful than a walk should be.

On the other hand it is nice where we are and not very green in neighbouring boroughs. Its a tricky balance but the best I could do was tolerate it whilst out and then moan about it when we got home.

Its going to be bad again when things open up and the weather starts to get nicer. We already had some clowns try and attempt a mass bring your own musical instrument party on one of the local greens last Saturday. OB were all over that but still...

I agree, it is a difficult balance to strike, and I think when people arrive in large groups can be particularly problematic.

It's mostly teuchter's dogmatic absolutism which pisses me off.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

You're the problem marty21

Bring back Marty1!

 

[marty21]

100s of people descending on Epping Forest won't create the same overcrowding as 100s of people "descending" on my local park (as happens at weekends when the weather is good) because Epping Forest is about 100 times bigger than my local park* and there is far more space for visitors to spread out and avoid overcrowding.

And closing car parks doesn't avoid the issue of people driving somewhere away from their immediate locality, it simply causes additional problems when they find their intended car park closed and look for am alternative.

I realise that you are ideologically committed to a general reduction in car use, and I sort of share that position, all be it without the dogmatism you regularly demonstrate, but in the current situation this is actually potentially damaging. People who have the ability to drive or cycle to somewhere like Epping Forest should actually be encouraged to do so, for the benefit of those who don't have that ability.

* figures for illustrative purposes only. I haven't measured the actual size of either Epping Forest or my local park.

I may have been to your local park I think you're local-ish to me (Clapton) . I can confirm the Epping Forest is a big space .

 

[marty21]

Bring back Marty1!

I am 21 times worse

 

[marty21]

So Epping Forest is roughly 500 times bigger, that sounds about right.

But woe betide anyone from Tottenham or Hackney who has the cheek to get in their car and drive there for a walk...

Woe betide me tbf

 

[teuchter]

So Epping Forest is roughly 500 times bigger, that sounds about right.

But woe betide anyone from Tottenham or Hackney who has the cheek to get in their car and drive there for a walk...

It's good that the already advantaged portion of Tottenham/Hackney residents who own cars have someone sticking up for their right to drive past everyone else's houses and go somewhere nicer.

 

[andysays]

I may have been to your local park I think you're local-ish to me (Clapton) . I can confirm the Epping Forest is a big space .

My work takes me regularly to Springfield Park near you, but my local park (which littleseb has kindly looked up the size of) is on St Ann's Road in Tottenham.

Both of them get hugely crowded ATM, particularly at weekends and when it's sunny.

I haven't been to Epping Forest for a few years, but mostly you could walk for 5 minutes after parking and basically be on your own.

 

[Winot]

At what point does an area like Epping Forest become a rural area that people in the city have a right to access?

Rural areas and plague tourists

There are many rural areas of the UK which have not really suffered high levels of Covid, compared to the national average. Of course, it's understandable that if you lived in one of those areas, you would want to keep it that way. And when there are surges of infection its quite right that...

www.urban75.net

 

[andysays]

It's good that the already advantaged portion of Tottenham/Hackney residents who own cars have someone sticking up for their right to drive past everyone else's houses and go somewhere nicer.

You appear to be so stuck up your own dogma that you're missing my point, which is that the less advantaged residents benefit from the more advantaged ones getting in their cars and driving elsewhere, leaving local parks less crowded.

 

[marty21]

My work takes me regularly to Springfield Park near you, but my local park (which littleseb has kindly looked up the size of) is on St Ann's Road in Tottenham.

Both of them get hugely crowded ATM, particularly at weekends and when it's sunny.

I haven't been to Epping Forest for a few years, but mostly you could walk for 5 minutes after parking and basically be on your own.

During the summer , places like Hackney Downs & Walthamstow Marshes were heaving, many of the people there had come from other areas in London . I tried to limit my walking to early mornings or late evenings then.

 

[teuchter]

At what point does an area like Epping Forest become a rural area that people in the city have a right to access?

Rural areas and plague tourists

There are many rural areas of the UK which have not really suffered high levels of Covid, compared to the national average. Of course, it's understandable that if you lived in one of those areas, you would want to keep it that way. And when there are surges of infection its quite right that...

www.urban75.net

I was waiting for someone to bring this up
I think it's at the point where we are no longer pretending to be in 'lockdown' and following a specific policy of limiting travel.
Because at that point, those without cars will also have the option of travelling to places, by public transport.

 

[klang]

Both of them get hugely crowded ATM, particularly at weekends and when it's sunny.

the one in Tot, sitting in between three schools, will now be at breaking point in the afternoon.

 

[andysays]

During the summer , places like Hackney Downs & Walthamstow Marshes were heaving, many of the people there had come from other areas in London . I tried to limit by walking to early mornings or late evenings then.

My wife has been working from home since lockdown began.

She used to make a point of walking as part of her journey to work, and now she tries to get out and walk in our local park every day, but because it's so crowded (by locals, not by people travelling to the area specifically to visit it), she has to try to time her walks at less busy times.

It's not quite so bad now, but during the winter when nights were longer, she basically had to choose between feeling unsafe because of crowding or feeling unsafe because of the dark.

 

[teuchter]

You appear to be so stuck up your own dogma that you're missing my point, which is that the less advantaged residents benefit from the more advantaged ones getting in their cars and driving elsewhere, leaving local parks less crowded.

I don't agree with that. I think this effect would be very minimal. A couple of percent of people living across two boroughs would be a barely noticeable number locally, but would be a large number when they converged on somewhere like Epping Forest.

 

[andysays]

I don't agree with that. I think this effect would be very minimal. A couple of percent of people living across two boroughs would be a barely noticeable number locally, but would be a large number when they converged on somewhere like Epping Forest.

Have you ever been to Epping Forest?

Do you actually have any idea how big it is, how much room there is to spread out in?

 

[klang]

My wife has been working from home since lockdown began.

She used to make a point of walking as part of her journey to work, and now she tries to get out and walk in our local park every day, but because it's so crowded (by locals, not by people travelling to the area specifically to visit it), she has to try to time her walks at less busy times.

It's not quite so bad now, but during the winter when nights were longer, she basically had to choose between feeling unsafe because of crowding or feeling unsafe because of the dark.

tbh it just highlights the need for more green spaces and playgrounds.

 

[teuchter]

Also - Epping Forest is very large, but people arriving at places by car rarely stray very far from the car park. Apparently there are about 1000 parking spaces across the forest. Multiply that by multiple car occupants plus the people who see that the forest is "open" but arrive to find all the car parks full and then start hunting around neighbouring streets or verges and so on.

Like I say, just deciding to send a message that people are really not encouraged to drive to places like Epping Forest during a lockdown seems a perfectly sensible move to me.

But maybe Epping Forest is run by dogmatic absolutists like me.

 

[teuchter]

tbh it just highlights the need for more green spaces and playgrounds.

Yup. We should convert all car parking space into green space and playgrounds.

 

[klang]

my two local playgrounds get terribly busy. But what am I supposed to do? The boy needs to be out and watch others (older kids). A lawn or the canal doesn't do it for him, he needs climbing frames and swings.
I try to stick to less busy times, but this isn't always possible.

 

[teuchter]

Have you ever been to Epping Forest?

Do you actually have any idea how big it is, how much room there is to spread out in?

Yes and yes.

 

[klang]

It happens quite regularly that when I haven't seen other parents for a while and I ask them where they's been the answer is: Had to isolate, outbreak at nursery.

 

[andysays]

tbh it just highlights the need for more green spaces and playgrounds.

It does, and perhaps it suggests that the local population has grown significantly in recent years.

But we are where we are now, and more parks aren't an option in the short term.

People who lived in densely populated urban areas are already disadvantaged by lack of local green spaces, now we're being told by teuchter that we have to stay in our own areas and leave the much larger green spaces in less densely populated areas to the more privileged people lucky enough to live there.

 

[Pickman's model]

But maybe Epping Forest is run by dogmatic absolutists like me.

fortunately it's not and is run by people who know their business.

 

[marty21]

My wife has been working from home since lockdown began.

She used to make a point of walking as part of her journey to work, and now she tries to get out and walk in our local park every day, but because it's so crowded (by locals, not by people travelling to the area specifically to visit it), she has to try to time her walks at less busy times.

It's not quite so bad now, but during the winter when nights were longer, she basically had to choose between feeling unsafe because of crowding or feeling unsafe because of the dark.

I walk up to Markfield Park a lot (which is near you? ) that was proper heaving during hot days , even though the cafe there was shut for a lot of the summer.

We had the added joy in the summer of people shitting in local parks as toilet facilities were closed. There were even signs put up in my nearest park (North Millfields) which basically asked people to shit at home . I do not know if the majority of park shitters were drivers or pedestrians.

 

[marty21]

my two local playgrounds get terribly busy. But what am I supposed to do? The boy needs to be out and watch others (older kids). A lawn or the canal doesn't do it for him, he needs climbing frames and swings.
I try to stick to less busy times, but this isn't always possible.

I think you're local to me. I've noticed that they have improved the play areas in Springfield Park. The two main playgrounds were fenced off recently , which of course didn't stop local kids & parents bypassing the fencing & playing on the new play things .

 

[andysays]

I walk up to Markfield Park a lot (which is near you? ) that was proper heaving during hot days , even though the cafe there was shut for a lot of the summer.

We had the added joy in the summer of people shitting in local parks as toilet facilities were closed. There were even signs put up in my nearest park (North Millfields) which basically asked people to shit at home . I do not know if the majority of park shitters were drivers or pedestrians.

Yeah, I work alongside staff in Springfield Park who have many stories about the behaviour of (mostly entitled middle class) park users around toilet facilities and other things.

I got the impression that most of them were local enough that they could walk home to use their own toilet, but insisted that all the normal facilities should be kept open for their convenience.

ETA although most shitters were local, I'm not saying most locals were shitters