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London: the unlockening/relockening

The bakery I go to most has been open throughout, apart from about 10 days when some staff members had the covid. They have been serving from the door most of the time , it is a very popular bakery, sometimes up to 30 people are queuing (I swerve it if the queue is more than 10)
 
Yup, in my corner of London its been very busy outside throughout. Most cafe's open and all take aways and food shops of different stripes. It can get very crowded in the parks and down by the river.
 
teuchter said:
I'm certainly going to be watching with much interest, what happens if and when we see a true unlockening this summer. Whether, when workers start returning to central London, there will be a notable increase in those cycling in.

Although London's cycle infrastructure is still somewhat rubbish, it's better than it was a year ago. We'll see what percentage of those improvements get ripped out again.
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Some of that might also depend on what sort of travel ticket offers there are. If people aren't commuting 5 days a week and buying annual or monthly travel cards we're going to start noticing how much it costs when we go in for one day, or think to hop on the bus for a couple of stops. Maybe need some sort of carnet tickets?
 
Teaboy said:
Yup, in my corner of London its been very busy outside throughout. Most cafe's open and all take aways and food shops of different stripes. It can get very crowded in the parks and down by the river.
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My area of Epping Forest has been absolutely chock-a-block throughout outside.

It's always weird seeing the 10+ cars parked up outside the playground because I'm fairly most of these people live nearby, it's not a huge area of settlement.
 
Artaxerxes said:
My area of Epping Forest has been absolutely chock-a-block throughout outside.

It's always weird seeing the 10+ cars parked up outside the playground because I'm fairly most of these people live nearby, it's not a huge area of settlement.
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I've been to Epping Forest a few times over the pandemic , on one occasion we couldn't park as they had reduced the car parks in the forest & the remaining ones were packed !
 
Teaboy said:
Yup, in my corner of London its been very busy outside throughout. Most cafes open and all take aways and food shops of different stripes. It can get very crowded in the parks and down by the river.
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For takeaway purposes only, I take it? :hmm:

I can't bloody wait to be able to have a Saturday veggie breakfast!!! :eek:

We await Mark Drakeford's Welsh Govt announcements on Friday 12th with keen interest .....
 
It's not weird, I wish everywhere like that would shut their carparks during lockdowns, to try and reduce the phenomenon of London's minority of car owners filling up the streets driving to places to go for a walk while everyone else has to make do with whatever walks they can do from their front doors.
 
teuchter said:
It's not weird, I wish everywhere like that would shut their carparks during lockdowns, to try and reduce the phenomenon of London's minority of car owners filling up the streets driving to places to go for a walk while everyone else has to make do with whatever walks they can do from their front doors.
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I do both tbf
 
Some of these car parks are a good half hours walk from the main housing areas, or more, which means that everyone who can't get there just clusters at the main entries to the forest instead because they can't be arsed to walk that far in.

I'd love to see less people but shutting them wasn't the way to do it because I was dodging people left right and centre to get to those quiet bits, it's a little easier now if still busy.

I do miss my quiet forest though.
 
It certainly seems to me that there are a lot of visitors from neighbouring boroughs coming down to where I live for the greenery. It is very frustrating because it just makes it so busy and difficult to distance. That being said I do understand that if you live an area which is very urban just walking the streets each day must be very boring and not particularly good for the soul.

Its just a period of time we have to get through. I say that now though when things are calming down a bit.
 
marty21 said:
I mean , I drive occasionally to Epping Forest to go for a walk , and go for a walk from my front door to local green areas.
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My point is that there's loads of people who don't have the option of sometimes driving somewhere different for a change. And those people find their local streets busy with cars driving around the place, cars driven by the minority of Londoners who have that option.

I don't want to get into criticising you personally. Maybe some people would disapprove of me doing fifteen mile walks that take me into other boroughs because they don't think the rules allow that. But I'm saying that I think there's a good argument for closing carparks to discourage people from driving around for leisure purposes. In the first lockdown the quietness of the streets compensated greatly for the restrictions on what what activity was allowed. You can perhaps see how having people trapped in their houses and immediate area whilst the streets outside are full of traffic much of which probably shouldn't really be there, might generate resentment.
 
teuchter said:
My point is that there's loads of people who don't have the option of sometimes driving somewhere different for a change. And those people find their local streets busy with cars driving around the place, cars driven by the minority of Londoners who have that option.

I don't want to get into criticising you personally. Maybe some people would disapprove of me doing fifteen mile walks that take me into other boroughs because they don't think the rules allow that. But I'm saying that I think there's a good argument for closing carparks to discourage people from driving around for leisure purposes. In the first lockdown the quietness of the streets compensated greatly for the restrictions on what what activity was allowed. You can perhaps see how having people trapped in their houses and immediate area whilst the streets outside are full of traffic much of which probably shouldn't really be there, might generate resentment.
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I think this is a bit of a straw man, TBH.

I don't think there are many people actually trapped in their homes because of cars driving down their local streets, though some may certainly feel it would be more pleasant and even safer without those cars there.

But I do know people who are very wary about going out to local parks etc for daily exercise because at many times of day those areas are crowded to the extent that they feel unsafe ATM.

If some of those regularly exercising in my local park are able to drive (or cycle, etc) somewhere with more space and fewer people every now and again, that would leave more space in the park for those who can't.
 
I've been actively trying to keep a lid on any resentment I might feel, towards people with freedom to drive (or cycle) somewhere for a change of scenery, because I know it's a bit unfounded - but it is there, IYSWIM.

Anyway, a week or so back, I cracked & took a quiet midweek train out to Hampton Wick for a walk round Bushey Park & along the Thames.

Feel mildly guilty as - although I actually feel public transport is very safe - I also know it's safest when its empty, so we shouldn't be clogging it up with unnecessary journeys & making it even a tiny bit less safe for people who have no option except to use it to get to work.

But I also remember from last summer's unlockening, that there never actually was an announcement that public transport was now acceptable for non-essential journeys... just eventually a sort of 'oi you, you lazy cunts, why aren't you back in your offices yet' noise from the powers that be.
 
andysays said:
I think this is a bit of a straw man, TBH.

I don't think there are many people actually trapped in their homes because of cars driving down their local streets, though some may certainly feel it would be more pleasant and even safer without those cars there.

But I do know people who are very wary about going out to local parks etc for daily exercise because at many times of day those areas are crowded to the extent that they feel unsafe ATM.

If some of those regularly exercising in my local park are able to drive (or cycle, etc) somewhere with more space and fewer people every now and again, that would leave more space in the park for those who can't.
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Right, but those places with more space and fewer people might only be quieter as a result of putting restrictions on how people can get there - ie. not having car parks open.

It is similar to the public transport situation that Ms Ordinary describes. With trains very empty there is probably very little risk or problem with one individual taking the train to somewhere nice for a change of scenery. But that falls apart if everyone decides to do it. So we have messaging that strongly discourages use of public transport for leisure purposes. It makes sense to do that, and it also makes sense to do the same for car journeys. Because the experience of making an elicit car journey is different to a public transport one (you don't have walk past staff and notices telling you not to do what you're doing) the messaging has to happen in different ways. And closing car parks at leisure destinations seems to be a perfectly sensible way to do this. You'll not stop everyone from using their cars when they're not really supposed to be - but you will hopefully avoid hundreds of people descending by car on places like Epping Forest.

Like I said above I don't want to make it into criticism of individual behaviour; my original point was simply that it's not weird to decide to close car parks at Epping Forest. To me there's good reason to do so.
 
teuchter said:
My point is that there's loads of people who don't have the option of sometimes driving somewhere different for a change. And those people find their local streets busy with cars driving around the place, cars driven by the minority of Londoners who have that option.

I don't want to get into criticising you personally. Maybe some people would disapprove of me doing fifteen mile walks that take me into other boroughs because they don't think the rules allow that. But I'm saying that I think there's a good argument for closing carparks to discourage people from driving around for leisure purposes. In the first lockdown the quietness of the streets compensated greatly for the restrictions on what what activity was allowed. You can perhaps see how having people trapped in their houses and immediate area whilst the streets outside are full of traffic much of which probably shouldn't really be there, might generate resentment.
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But at the same time I can't walk far at all so really am restricted to the very local area. Would love a change of scenery :D

I'm not disagreeing with you entirely btw.
 
teuchter said:
My point is that there's loads of people who don't have the option of sometimes driving somewhere different for a change. And those people find their local streets busy with cars driving around the place, cars driven by the minority of Londoners who have that option.

I don't want to get into criticising you personally. Maybe some people would disapprove of me doing fifteen mile walks that take me into other boroughs because they don't think the rules allow that. But I'm saying that I think there's a good argument for closing carparks to discourage people from driving around for leisure purposes. In the first lockdown the quietness of the streets compensated greatly for the restrictions on what what activity was allowed. You can perhaps see how having people trapped in their houses and immediate area whilst the streets outside are full of traffic much of which probably shouldn't really be there, might generate resentment.
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Closing some of the car parks in Epping Forest would impact more on the locals than on me (I just turned around and drove the 10 miles back to Hackney. )
I get your point about car ownership, you've always made your position very clear on that. But an Epping Forest local who may need to drive would be unfairly impacted by the reduction in car parking spaces. They may be disabled and use the Forest for short walks as it is a nice place to go for a walk.
 
teuchter said:
I'd have no problem with some parking spaces being provided for blue badge holders only.
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I doubt that Epping Forest car parks are monitored by parking officials very closely, so you'd just get anyone using those spaces. If all the car parks had been open , there should be enough parking capacity for all. I think I went there when restrictions were being lifted following the 1st lockdown and loads of people had the same idea.
 
This is just part of wider problem that's going on at the moment though. Basically our beauty spots can't cope with so many people wanting use them all of a sudden.

www.bbc.co.uk

New Forest visitor 'frenzy' fear as lockdown eases

Wild camping, litter, BBQs and people feeding animals are causing problems at the national park.
www.bbc.co.uk

I'm not really sure what the answer is but its likely some sort of control is going to have to be implemented, sadly.
 
Teaboy said:
I'm not really sure what the answer is
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Make it clear to people they shouldn't be driving anywhere (or state a definitive distance limit) for leisure purposes, just as it is made clear to people that they shouldn't be using public transport to travel anywhere for leisure purposes.
 
teuchter said:
Right, but those places with more space and fewer people might only be quieter as a result of putting restrictions on how people can get there - ie. not having car parks open.

It is similar to the public transport situation that Ms Ordinary describes. With trains very empty there is probably very little risk or problem with one individual taking the train to somewhere nice for a change of scenery. But that falls apart if everyone decides to do it. So we have messaging that strongly discourages use of public transport for leisure purposes. It makes sense to do that, and it also makes sense to do the same for car journeys. Because the experience of making an elicit car journey is different to a public transport one (you don't have walk past staff and notices telling you not to do what you're doing) the messaging has to happen in different ways. And closing car parks at leisure destinations seems to be a perfectly sensible way to do this. You'll not stop everyone from using their cars when they're not really supposed to be - but you will hopefully avoid hundreds of people descending by car on places like Epping Forest.

Like I said above I don't want to make it into criticism of individual behaviour; my original point was simply that it's not weird to decide to close car parks at Epping Forest. To me there's good reason to do so.
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100s of people descending on Epping Forest won't create the same overcrowding as 100s of people "descending" on my local park (as happens at weekends when the weather is good) because Epping Forest is about 100 times bigger than my local park* and there is far more space for visitors to spread out and avoid overcrowding.

And closing car parks doesn't avoid the issue of people driving somewhere away from their immediate locality, it simply causes additional problems when they find their intended car park closed and look for am alternative.

I realise that you are ideologically committed to a general reduction in car use, and I sort of share that position, all be it without the dogmatism you regularly demonstrate, but in the current situation this is actually potentially damaging. People who have the ability to drive or cycle to somewhere like Epping Forest should actually be encouraged to do so, for the benefit of those who don't have that ability.

* figures for illustrative purposes only. I haven't measured the actual size of either Epping Forest or my local park.
 
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