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London Student protests - Wed 8th Dec+ Thurs 9th

I read it again. It does not bear the meaning you claim it has.

In what way does my post, poking fun at your promotion of the efficacy of judicial indepedence, not mean I was having a laugh at your pretended naivety? Just because you can't sustain a coherent argument, there's no need to make stuff up and start swearing.

Louis MacNeice
 
Funny that, because I've seen coppers hitting kids with sticks at every major demo I've been to over the last few months. In fact, I've seen whole lines of coppers, obviously acting on orders, batoning whichever poor sods happen to be at the front of the kettle.

No fucking good raising the issue after you've batterred some poor wee kids is it? Bit late.
That the people your lot are battering and criminalising are children. You read his piece, purposefully being let out of one kettle so that the coppers can baton charge them, so the mounties can charge at them, freezing cold kids having to try and assemble fucking barricades to fend off violent attacks from heavily armed and fully grown policemen. And you wonder why so many people despise the Police, as an institution and as individuals.

Well said! :)
 
Yes.

Would you agree that (A) dispersing a crowd intent on violence and damage has the potential to cause injuries or much, much worse to members of the public, NONE of whom are troublemakers?

Or that (B) allowing a crowd intent on violence and damage to go exactly where it likes has the potential to cause injuries or much, much worse to members of the public, NONE of whom are troublemakers?

(A) is the likely outcome and has been for as long as I can remember.

I have never seen a crowd attack (option b I think you are saying) 'members of the public', but I have seen property damaged and we can live with that.
 
What does he know? he's only a fucking doctor, you idiot! :mad: :rolleyes:

One reason I avoid U75 is cos of the cranks/headbangers around here - I get sensible comments elsewhere, in that real world people hide from on U75;

Here's some evidence about that letter, objective comment without prejeudice;

I emailed the letter and link around http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/features/letters/8741907.Student_protests/
here's one reply;

Identity hidden; - thats a bliddy classic letter ____ well done.

Thanks ____, you cheered me up:)


Identity hidden; no bullshit, it was concise, hits the spot, sharp, and short.
 
The security services have a huge budget and spend a lot of money infiltrating groups and organisations in order to subvert them, divert them, and lead them up the garden path. I speculate that this in the modern age includes operatives who do the same on influential message boards and similar. Is DB one of them? I don't know. Does he follow an identical agenda. Yes he does.

Well said TC:)
 
A march doesn't become unlawful simply because it deviates from the police-mandated route, it is only an offence to organise such a march, not to participate in one. The static demonstration would be illegal if it could be proven they intended to remain static, which doesn't appear to be the case on published evidence.

These are very good points... Precious piggies over policed, over reacted as per....
 
I'm quite happy to deal with people who disagree with me.

It's the people who make up what I have said, who misrepresent what I have said, who can't be bothered reading what I have said before wading in and the trolls who obsessively follow me from thread to thread posting nothing but abuse who I can't deal with.

TBH though, we're not interested in the law and the police, only insofaras you are in our way.:p
 
I agree it doesn't appear that it intended to remain static ... on the basis of the information in the public domain it appears their intent was to break into Parliament (????!!!) and ... well, I'm not sure they know what they wanted to do when then got into Parliament but I suspect it would have ended in the same way as Millbank with most people just milling about not knowing what to do and others committing acts of damage and violence of varying degrees on any one and any thing which they encountered or which got in their way ...

YES quite...
 
You cannot have your cake and eat it. If you really think that it is necessary to break the law in the pursuit of some right, grow some balls and stand up and be counted for taking the action you did and the consequences which follow.
WHY? That would be stupid. Far better to live to fight again another day.

The police protect the rich and powerful, always have and always will (well till we can get a society that goes beyond capitalism). Your 'role' DB is to try to deny that you are doing this in the face of all the evidence to the contrary...
 
I have never seen a crowd attack (option b I think you are saying) 'members of the public', but I have seen property damaged and we can live with that.

No, we can't. (we being the vast majority - e.g. non-workshy; non-soap dodgers; non-anarcho-wankers; non-scrounging etc. etc. etc. folk who actually contribute something to the fabric of the nation).
 
See. You don't have the first clue what I am getting at, do you. In your head 'lawful' is synonymous with 'right'. You simply cannot countenance any complication of such a system. I do not 'demand the right' to break the law. Doesn't make the coppers who enforce shit laws any less culpable for their actions, though. Fuck you and anyone else who commits immoral acts in the name of 'duty'. Moral cowards the lot of you.

This is true.

The police do not work, infact they spend most of their time avoiding it or exploiting it (remember the police diving squad swimming lessons anyone?) and take the piss on sick leave, far more than any other 'public service'. Overpaid all of them, right wing thicko's most of them....
 
No, we can't. (we being the vast majority - e.g. non-workshy; non-soap dodgers; non-anarcho-wankers; non-scrounging etc. etc. etc. folk who actually contribute something to the fabric of the nation).
Every time you drive around in your precious polluting car you cause damage to the environment and property. This is a fact.
 
In fact, I've seen whole lines of coppers, obviously acting on orders, batoning whichever poor sods happen to be at the front of the kettle.
You really are quite incapable of handling complex concepts, aren't you? :rolleyes:

ORDERS to hold a line, or to clear a street, or to push a crowd back, as part of some overall strategy that there is simply no opportunity to explain the rationale for in detail to each and every individual officer.

PERSONAL DECISIONS to use batons if attacked or resisted with such force as to make the use of a baton INDIVIDUALLY justifiable.

But this is precisely the area where I believe attention should be focused - (some) officers using INDIVIDUAL officer safety tactics in the context of a COLLECTIVE use of force by "the police" on "the crowd" for a justifiable reason. I do not believe that the individual uses of force by batoning, especially at or around the head, can possibly be justified by the same grounds as justify the collective use of force perfectly well.

As for people being at the front line - sometimes that is because they have chosen to be there because they have chosen to attack / resist the police (in which case they are entirely the authors of their own misfortune in putting themselves in a situation in which force may be justified), sometimes they have had ample opportunity to leave that particular area, or to move back, when things have started kicking off and, for whatever reason, they have chosen not to do so (in which case whilst not authors of their own misfortune to the same extent as the first group, they have had an opportunity to remove themselves and have failed to take it, so putting themselves at risk of being caught up in the "fog of conflict" if things kick off) and sometimes they have simply not been able to be anywhere else as they have had no opportunity to move because of the crush of the crowd (in which case they are not the authors of their own misfortune at all). The police using force on a crowd need to do their best (and it will never be perfect) to distinguish between these groups and, wherever possible, endeavour to help those in the third group escape the situation rather than treating them all the same - if they don't want to be involved in trouble, but have no way of escaping it because of the crush, it is absolutely pointless (and probably unlawful) for the police to baton them

That the people your lot are battering and criminalising are children.
If someone who is 17 is committing crime, or using such force as to merit the lawful use of a baton in response they are criminalising themselves. Fact.
 
You really are quite incapable of handling complex concepts, aren't you? :rolleyes:

And you're quite incapable of making a post without starting or ending it with an insult.

How about this? Write out your post, then go back into it and edit out all the personal abuse before posting it.

Try it for a trial period and see whether it changes the way people respond to you. You might be surprised.
 
Of course. But do you think I should have some sort of information as to why I'm being detained in the case of being prevented from walking up whitehall, away from a protest which has been contained? Is there a legal requirement to be informed, as there is when you are arrested? Even if not, I'd say it would be a good thing to do. If you do not know why you are being detained, how can you know whether it's legally right or not?
I have already commented that the amount of communication with protestors (at all stages, not just when contained) needs to be significantly improved. There is no legal obligation (unless the courts were to conclude that containment was a form of arrest ... which I think is highly unlikely) to provide information. I cannot see the Courts deciding there is one either - it would simply be impracticable to do so (there are exceptions from the rights to information on arrest if it is impracticable to provide it (e.g. because the person is fighting, or because of some other operational imperative). Personally I believe it should be established as good practice, even if there is no legal obligation. The use of PA systems is noticeable by it's absence ... which is a bit bizarre as I remember loud hailers being used regularly in public order situations back in the day before police vehicles had PA systems fitted ... and now all vehicles do they are not used and loud hailers are rarely seen ...

I don't understand this at all. I saw no people doing anything untoward on Whitehall, just milling about or heading towards or away from the contained protest. If there was a problem in Trafalgar Square, which I've seen no evidence of anyway, why didn't they contain the problem there?
That is my point - you cannot expect to understand it unless you have had the benefit of a detailed eplanation from the officer directing that it be done, giving details of the rationale for their decision. These things are now recorded in "Gold" control rooms (and by subordinate "Silver" and "Bronze" commanders) ... but they are not routinely released into the public domain. If there is a criminal or civil court case, or a complaint or enquiry arising from the use of the tactic then they will be made available there.
 
TBH though, we're not interested in the law and the police, only insofaras you are in our way.:p
In that case you commit yourselves to a lifetime of being ignored by the vast majority of people in this country, who are not interested in overthrowing the State and who inhabit that "real world" you claimed to prefer just a few posts ago ... :rolleyes:
 
Your 'role' DB is to try to deny that you are doing this in the face of all the evidence to the contrary...
I don't have a "role" you paranoid fool. My only interest in relation to the policing of protest is to try and help reach an acceptable middle way whereby basically lawful protest if facilitated, minor unlawfulness is tolerated / not overreacted to by politicians, media, the Commissioner and where those using lawful protest as a cover for serious violence and crime are isolated and brought to justice as swiftly as possible.
 
No, we can't. (we being the vast majority - e.g. non-workshy; non-soap dodgers; non-anarcho-wankers; non-scrounging etc. etc. etc. folk who actually contribute something to the fabric of the nation).
I would disagree. In life there are compromises. If protesters are particularly angry about something, is it really such a big deal to put up with some grafitti and broken windows in public (or large corporations) buildings / property? Is it really worth killing a protestor (as so nearly happened last week) just to prevent that?

We put up with lots of downsides to lots of things to protect or facilitate some upsides (I am listening to a plane taking off, disturbing my peace so that some other people can fly off somewhere, as I write this and I, and millions of others, tolerate that all day and every day). Why should protest be any different?
 
The police do not work, infact they spend most of their time avoiding it or exploiting it (remember the police diving squad swimming lessons anyone?) and take the piss on sick leave, far more than any other 'public service'. Overpaid all of them, right wing thicko's most of them....
99.9% prejudice. 0.1% fact.

Well done. :rolleyes:
 
Try it for a trial period and see whether it changes the way people respond to you.
I will.

As soon as other posters refrain from:

1. Throwing abuse in my direction on any thread involving policing issues (often before I have even posted).
2. Simply posting abuse, with not even an attempt to engage on the substantive issues.
3. Obsessively stalking me from thread to thread, making post after post after post with nothing but abuse and other slagging off.
4. Failing to read what I actually post, and thus misrepresenting entirely what I have actually said.
5. Not even bothering to try to read what I have posted and posting on the basis of what their prejudices tell them I would have thought / said.

i.e. ... er, no time soon ...

In slagging off Proper Tidy I am responding to their deliberate misrepresentation of what I have said - they are perfectly capable of understanding what I posted, they have simply chosen not to do so, which is tedious and annoying ... and so results in a robust response. If I thought for one moment that they genuinely had special educational needs and genuinely didn't understand the complexities of the issue I had posted about then I wouldn't dream of abusing them as I did.
 
Having spoken to a couple of people during the day today (one police and two students who were there (one contained, one outside the containment) it appears that the police may have held the containment on Westminster Bridge for as long as they did whilst they arranged for footage of some of the more serious incidents to be made available so that those involved could be identified and arrested as they were filtered out.
That tallies with what I was told by a Sergeant at the Victoria Embankment end of the bridge, he said the road was closed because "serious arrestable offences" (his exact words) had occurred and were being investigated. This was justification not only for the kettle, but also apparently to not allow me to stand on the road and take of a photo of the outer cordon. The specific power invoked being "Bronze says so".

The use of PA systems is noticeable by it's absence ... which is a bit bizarre as I remember loud hailers being used regularly in public order situations back in the day before police vehicles had PA systems fitted ... and now all vehicles do they are not used and loud hailers are rarely seen ...
The police did manage to get one of their vehicle PA systems working for the dispersal of the Westminster Bridge kettle, to tell people to proceed to Waterloo station, which as they were blocking all the other routes was as pointless as the kettle had been.
 
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